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Post by smalltowngirlie on Nov 24, 2016 13:23:00 GMT
Free will and happiness absolutely co exists! We can choose our free will to be happy, to do good things, Help or comfort others, love and be loved. The bus driver chose to do other things with his free will. Under the law, hopefully the future jurors will use their free will to seek justice on behalf of those children. Yes, the co-exist sometimes. But,apparently in heaven, we can have free will and PERFECT happiness - w/no suffering or pain. If we can have it there, why didn't it start out that way here? It seems cruel to make it any other way if you have the power to make earth or heaven a place w/free will AND perfect happiness/no suffering. You are asking some very deep questions that people study for years. Thank you for trying to understand a very complicated belief. I will try to explain my understanding of free will as I see it. When God created the earth He did make it perfect with no pain and suffering. He also created man and woman and gave them free will. When Eve ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge she became aware of the evil by her disobeying God. He said do not eat from this tree. The majority of people choose to use their free will for good, but some choose to use their free will for evil. This is a very simplistic answer. If you want to talk more please message me and I will do my humble best to answer any other questions.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2016 13:30:47 GMT
Thank you so much for your kind and patient answer smalltowngirlie. I think these thoughts every time a cruelty is perpetrated onto good people whether through "free will" of people or even through what seems like God's cruelty w/o people - like earthquakes or leukemia in toddlers. It doesn't make sense to me that Eden was set up to fail containing a conflict between free will and perfect happiness, but that heaven doesn't have that same conflict. If we can have eternal happiness AND free will in heaven, we should have had them both here on earth (w/no ability to f(#$ it up like we supposedly did - just like we can't f#($ it up in heaven). To me anything less seems less than loving. If I had the power to set up any world I wanted for my kids, I would set them up in the world of free will AND perfect happiness (like heaven) I would never set up any different world first.
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Post by smalltowngirlie on Nov 24, 2016 13:39:50 GMT
Thank you so much for your kind and patient answer smalltowngirlie . I think these thoughts every time a cruelty is perpetrated onto good people whether through "free will" of people or even through what seems like God's cruelty w/o people - like earthquakes or leukemia in toddlers. It doesn't make sense to me that Eden was set up to fail containing a conflict between free will and perfect happiness, but that heaven doesn't have that same conflict. If we can have eternal happiness AND free will in heaven, we should have had them both here on earth (w/no ability to f(#$ it up like we supposedly did - just like we can't f#($ it up in heaven). To me anything less seems less than loving. If I had the power to set up any world I wanted for my kids, I would set them up in the world of free will AND perfect happiness (like heaven) I would never set up any different world first. Oh I wish we lived in a perfect world also. I kind of see it as a tough love situation. Sometimes as a parent we need to say no and set boundaries for our children so they learn life skills and lessons. If we are given everything we ever want, we won't value it. When we have to work for things we then find a greater value in it. My relationship with Christ is something I value because I work at it, but there are many times I have also found great comfort in it. I often time will say I don't understand why some things happen and others don't, and really, it is not for me to understand. Life is full of mysteries. You have been asking great questions in a very respectful manner, I was hoping I was replying the same way. I love conversations with people I may not always agree with or we don't have the same beliefs. Thank you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2016 13:42:50 GMT
And thank you! The heaven vs. earth setup still gets me and makes me not believe or at least not want to believe because I don't want believe in a God that could have started w/a heaven setup all along, but that he didn't choose that for some reason. But I appreciate hearing real people's views on this and how they reconcile the, what seem to me like, contradictions.
Happy Thanksgiving if you're celebrating!
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Post by farmdpea on Nov 24, 2016 13:48:38 GMT
It's a very difficult concept, and, TBH I'm not sure we ever really understand how tragedies like this are allowed to happen. As a PP stated, we only see things from our finite perspective for a short time...believers have faith that God sees eternity from an omniscient POV. If you have 30 minutes and a spare Kleenex, I think you would enjoy (that's certainly not the right word!) watching this video of a radio host delivering the eulogy for his toddler son. It's been a while since I've seen it, but he touches on this topic and his faith.
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Post by smalltowngirlie on Nov 24, 2016 13:58:26 GMT
And thank you! The heaven vs. earth setup still gets me and makes me not believe or at least not want to believe because I don't want believe in a God that could have started w/a heaven setup all along, but that he didn't choose that for some reason. But I appreciate hearing real people's views on this and how they reconcile the, what seem to me like, contradictions. Happy Thanksgiving if you're celebrating! God set it up so we would have to choose Him if we want the perfect, eternal life in heaven. If we lived in the perfect world we would not have to choose to follow God, in a way the choice would be taken away because there would not be another option. In our imperfect world, we have a choice. Happy Thanksgiving to you also. We are doing a very simple Thanksgiving at home. Again, feel free to message me if you have other questions I can stumble though answering.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2016 14:15:36 GMT
And thank you! The heaven vs. earth setup still gets me and makes me not believe or at least not want to believe because I don't want believe in a God that could have started w/a heaven setup all along, but that he didn't choose that for some reason. But I appreciate hearing real people's views on this and how they reconcile the, what seem to me like, contradictions. Happy Thanksgiving if you're celebrating! God set it up so we would have to choose Him if we want the perfect, eternal life in heaven. If we lived in the perfect world we would not have to choose to follow God, in a way the choice would be taken away because there would not be another option. In our imperfect world, we have a choice. Happy Thanksgiving to you also. We are doing a very simple Thanksgiving at home. Again, feel free to message me if you have other questions I can stumble though answering. You're really kind! I will do that. The theology still doesn't give me any desire to believe in or follow a God who needs to tee up a choice (that results in bone-boring pain to toddlers) over just setting up a world w/free will and perfect happiness (like heaven) in the first place.
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61redhead
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Post by 61redhead on Nov 24, 2016 15:16:42 GMT
When God created the earth, it was a perfect place. When Got created Adam and Eve, they were not perfect. There is only one God, perfect, all-knowing, all-powerful, and present in all places and at all times. To have created perfect people, would have made them equal to God, but there can be only one God, one leader. He created the Garden of Eden and told A & E that it was there for their pleasure. They could live there and enjoy the beauty of the garden, eat of its many fruits and vegetables, etc. All of this was theirs, except for the fruit of one tree. It was a perfect world, with unending bounty and two people who had free will. There was only one rule -- Do not eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Eve was curious? Became dissatisfied? Wanted to be God? She convinced Adam that they should eat the fruit, and thus, by their free will, they disobeyed the only rule God had given them, and sin entered the world.
Like a PP compared it to tough love. You tell your child not to touch the stove, not because you are being mean or testing the child, but to protect your child from the danger of being burned. Sometimes that child has to learn the hard way and uses his free will to see for himself why he should not touch the stove. You teach your child to stop and look both ways before crossing the street, not to simply give him rules to follow, but to protect him from harm, because there are things that you know that, as a child, he has no idea of the danger. Then the child his chasing a ball, and getting the ball becomes his focus. Not the street, nor the cars. His free will to choose to chase the ball into the street can be tragic! God told A&E not to eat of the fruit because he knew it would give them knowledge of tempting, sinful things and take their focus off of Him, which put them, and us, in mortal danger.
I believe that we will still have our free will in Heaven, but Heaven is a perfect place -- without sin. And by virtue of the fact that you must freely accept the sacrifice of Christ in order to get to Heaven, you will be cleansed of sin. That is not to say that Christians are not sinful. Not at all, we are, every one of us is sinful. But we work to be less sinful, and confess our sins and ask for forgiveness. There is no sin in Heaven so free will is not an issue. When we get to Heaven, our only willful desire will be to praise and worship Him.
I wish I had the knowledge to explain this much better than I have. I know it sounds like a fairy tale, but I believe that the Bible is God's Word, inerrant and not metaphorical. We have to study the Word and be taught by those who have studied it even more deeply to even begin to understand the love of God.
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Post by papersilly on Nov 24, 2016 16:09:43 GMT
It seems cruel to make it any other way if you have the power to make earth or heaven a place w/free will AND perfect happiness/no suffering. When Adam and Eve were given free will, they had the power to have nothing but happiness and perfection on Earth. Their choice to disobey God led to good and bad decisions and actions by those who came after them. As the population grew, those bad decisions expanded exponentially to become the world today. The good expanded also but the bad was already introduced. We all have free will. Some just choose to perpetuate the negative will. You say it's "cruel" but we are the ones choosing cruelty, not God.
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Post by worrywart on Nov 24, 2016 17:27:05 GMT
I don't understand why you think free will and happiness can't co-exist? Because people always say we have pain and suffering on earth because of "free will". But we would have peace and joy in heaven w/no pain or suffering. So, my question is: is there free will in heaven? Because supposedly it's perfect there. If there can be free will in heaven and perfection at the same time, why wasn't that the way the earth was created in the first place? Why does our free will here lead to pain and suffering but not in heaven? I think that in heaven we have so much love, enlightenment and understanding...therefore we have no sadness, pain or suffering. Something like that.
Adding that (I believe) we each have lessons and things we need to learn and do here on earth and to do them requires that we don't have the all knowing or understanding that we would/do have in heaven.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2016 17:42:47 GMT
I believe that we will still have our free will in Heaven, but Heaven is a perfect place -- without sin. Then earth should have been like that in the first place. Perfect and w/o sin or the ability to sin. Just like whatever you believe heaven will be.
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61redhead
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Post by 61redhead on Nov 24, 2016 18:08:36 GMT
I believe that we will still have our free will in Heaven, but Heaven is a perfect place -- without sin. Then earth should have been like that in the first place. Perfect and w/o sin or the ability to sin. Just like whatever you believe heaven will be.Then it would have been Heaven, not Earth! Thank you for keeping this discussion civil. Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2016 18:28:09 GMT
I agree with @zingermack. If it was about providing a perfect place for "good" humans who pass the test, then maybe God could have just created perfect humans and plopped them into heaven. I just can't get behind the belief that a god who is supposed to be loving and benevolent allows humans to suffer, or even use "free will" to try and make it to heaven. That makes us basically pawns in some strange, cosmic chess game or something.
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Post by gar on Nov 24, 2016 18:33:26 GMT
I agree with @zingermack . If it was about providing a perfect place for "good" humans who pass the test, then maybe God could have just created perfect humans and plopped them into heaven. I just can't get behind the belief that a god who is supposed to be loving and benevolent allows humans to suffer, or even use "free will" to try and make it to heaven. That makes us basically pawns in some strange, cosmic chess game or something. Agreed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2016 18:45:22 GMT
Then earth should have been like that in the first place. Perfect and w/o sin or the ability to sin. Just like whatever you believe heaven will be.Then it would have been Heaven, not Earth! Thank you for keeping this discussion civil. Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours! Then me, as a loving parent, would have just started w/Heaven. Thank you! And to you and yours as well. May we all strive to make earth as much like heaven as possible. There will always be disease and natural disasters that humans don't cause, but may we strive to rid the world of the pain that can be prevented by our actions or inactions.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2016 18:57:02 GMT
There will always be disease and natural disasters that humans don't cause, but may we strive to rid the world of the pain that can be prevented by our actions or inactions. That's beautiful. TFS!
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zookeeper
Pearl Clutcher
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Aug 28, 2014 2:37:56 GMT
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Post by zookeeper on Nov 24, 2016 19:19:55 GMT
He looks completely baked in that picture. I cannot wait to see his toxicology reports. I hope that he gets the very maximum sentence for this. He did this. Not God.
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georgiapea
Drama Llama
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Jun 27, 2014 18:02:10 GMT
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Post by georgiapea on Nov 24, 2016 22:38:20 GMT
Her son knowingly drove too fast and all by himself, caused the deaths of all those children. I feel the circumstances could bring a murder charge upon him and he could and should be executed.
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Post by natlhol on Nov 25, 2016 6:22:54 GMT
On Earth we are human, and in Heaven we are not. As I think about the pain and suffering that sometimes comes with free will, I come back to this as a part of my understanding of the theology of it.
I am by no means an expert and I do not follow any disciplined study of the Bible or religion. But I have tried to understand why bad things happen and I always come back to the understanding that God made us human and the human condition is such that we can become ill or injured and also that we have free will.
Thank you to all for keeping this conversation civil and respectful.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2016 12:09:45 GMT
He looks completely baked in that picture. I cannot wait to see his toxicology reports. I hope that he gets the very maximum sentence for this. He did this. Not God. You've probably already heard/read this, but the driver's toxicology reports came back negative for drugs and alcohol. Plus that route he was on was not his normal route. I hope they can figure out why he did this. Only reason I can think of is that he was trying to commit suicide if that one little boy's comment about what he told the kids prior to the crash is true.
How much you want to bet a temporary insanity plea will be entered soon?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2016 13:56:13 GMT
On Earth we are human, and in Heaven we are not. As I think about the pain and suffering that sometimes comes with free will, I come back to this as a part of my understanding of the theology of it. I am by no means an expert and I do not follow any disciplined study of the Bible or religion. But I have tried to understand why bad things happen and I always come back to the understanding that God made us human and the human condition is such that we can become ill or injured and also that we have free will. Thank you to all for keeping this conversation civil and respectful. As a loving parent, if I had the power, I would have only created us as the non-human then.
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