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Post by sleepingbooty on May 11, 2017 17:45:52 GMT
Tim Holtz's genius is in how he decides to take an existing concept and develop it far beyond what's on the market. He's at the stage where he's now adding evolutions to his own initial "improvements". Distress Oxide is such a gem. And I say that as a scrapper whose style is nothing like TH's. But he takes products, thinks through everything that isn't quite right or doesn't meet his standards and puts something that is often far better on the market. Even the paper made with Tonic is far more agreeable to use than the normal non-branded Tonic one. No, I'm not saying this at all. I think the ethical thing to do would be for Tonic to have licensed her "technology" and improved the design. She didn't invent any technology. She improved on the good ol' portable printing press which was very much in use up until the early 20th century. Hinges and all. The principle was exactly the same: put the image you wanted printed on there, add ink and paper, splat close like a sandwich, voilà. I don't think she deserves to be paid a license for adding a magnetic surface or using an acrylic plate (like all clear stamp blocks did way before her). How she got her patent is still beyond me. And I really fail to see how Tonic hasn't acted ethically in this case.  |
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Post by paperaddict on May 11, 2017 18:37:02 GMT
You are right Bigelow, stamping up did have them before. I just remembered after the distress ink cubes came out, MFT, Altenew, Hero Arts, and SSS came out with them. Sorry about that mis-information. I agree with the above OP though that TH does make changes that improve the "product" .
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bigelow
Shy Member
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Post by bigelow on May 11, 2017 19:31:02 GMT
Tim Holtz's genius is in how he decides to take an existing concept and develop it far beyond what's on the market. He's at the stage where he's now adding evolutions to his own initial "improvements". Distress Oxide is such a gem. And I say that as a scrapper whose style is nothing like TH's. But he takes products, thinks through everything that isn't quite right or doesn't meet his standards and puts something that is often far better on the market. Even the paper made with Tonic is far more agreeable to use than the normal non-branded Tonic one. She didn't invent any technology. She improved on the good ol' portable printing press which was very much in use up until the early 20th century. Hinges and all. The principle was exactly the same: put the image you wanted printed on there, add ink and paper, splat close like a sandwich, voilà. I don't think she deserves to be paid a license for adding a magnetic surface or using an acrylic plate (like all clear stamp blocks did way before her). How she got her patent is still beyond me. And I really fail to see how Tonic hasn't acted ethically in this case. I totally agree that Tim can take so many products to the next level! He really does think of new ways to use things. And from what I have seen the stamp platform would not be any different. Some improvement, maybe. The thing I see that I think is improved is the hinges seem like they would not slip over time (altho my Misti has not done that, some people have reported it)
I personally would not want to bother turning over the door. Moving the foam is so simple.
I also have stamped for a long time and foam under your stamps makes a way better impression...especially with the clear stamps.
Notice that I put "technology" in quotes. So, I'm looking at the printing press picture and it looks like it needs a crank and rollers to actually make the impression on the paper. Do you think that is the difference?
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Post by cbet on May 11, 2017 20:41:21 GMT
Moving the foam is a big part of why I really want the Tonic - I prefer red rubber with cling foam and don't need the cushion  With the price of the Tonic, if it works as well as it looks like it will work and if it's as well made as Tonic's other tools, I'd seriously consider buying a 2nd just for clear stamps and then I'd never have to flip the lid anyway And what I just said is completely insane, because I already have 2 of the Hampton Art copy that I snagged with coupons before they took them away. On the printing press, I ~~think~~ that the crank and rollers are just a way to put even pressure on the printing plate so that you can crank out copies faster. It would still work if you put pressure on from your hands but it would take longer. And my theory about the patent lawsuit (for what it's worth) is that the Misti creator is trying to get Tonic to settle for a licensing fee, and if that doesn't work, she's hoping that with a jury trial, the people on the jury will get caught up in the emotion of big company trying to rip off a small enterpreneur. And all I really care about is getting my hands on my Tonic platform, however that happens! |
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Post by sleepingbooty on May 11, 2017 21:38:08 GMT
I totally agree that Tim can take so many products to the next level! He really does think of new ways to use things. And from what I have seen the stamp platform would not be any different. Some improvement, maybe. The thing I see that I think is improved is the hinges seem like they would not slip over time (altho my Misti has not done that, some people have reported it)
I personally would not want to bother turning over the door. Moving the foam is so simple.
I also have stamped for a long time and foam under your stamps makes a way better impression...especially with the clear stamps.
Notice that I put "technology" in quotes. So, I'm looking at the printing press picture and it looks like it needs a crank and rollers to actually make the impression on the paper. Do you think that is the difference? Appreciation of improvements will always be subjective to a certain extent, of course. As far as I'm concerned, these are notable improvements I took notice of when watching the video presentation of TH's stamp platform: 1. overall sturdy tool (just like TH's paper trimmer with Tonic which is both very comfortable and durable - mine fell from a 2m or about 6ft height on a tiled floor and survived with just the one small scratch) with different features that appear to be made for lasting (it lays flat open which won't cause the hinge problem you've heard of from certain MISTI users, larger paper sizes can be used which is the equivalent of cherubs singing in heaven for scrappers who do layouts, the grid is moulded into the acrylic plate making it protected, easier to clean) 2. the turn-over plate for rubber and acrylic which is great for lazy stampers like me  3. a brand that is well-known for offering great quality, durable tools and its excellent customer service (that's part of what's included and calculated in the price tag) 4. affordability which is often an overlooked evolution in a given market but genuinely is of great importance as it can determine the reach of a given product (at about half the price of the MISTI, there's no denying the impact) As for the foam argument: the stamping done in the preview of the TH tool looks crisp clean and perfect. I do think we're reaching a point where tools and materials can now be improved so as to offer shortcuts without compromising on the final result. Obviously, that doesn't mean old school foam is now over and done with or that you ought to let go of the habit. Just that you can actually get great results with a good tool. And that's always a plus for lazy I-want-to-stamp-well-but-I-am-just-not-a-stamper-at-heart folks like me. The old portable printing presses needed the rollers and crank system due to the nature of the metal type. But, essentially, I don't think taking away a few elements and implying the use of hand pressure is necessarily enough to warrant a significative change in technology that ought to be protected by a patent. In which case, I'd like to know how WRMK feels about it since they had the Letterpress on offer before the MISTI came out... Sigh. It's a long story. But I fail to see how a stamping tool like this one can be considered a new thing that needs protecting. The real issue, in the end, was the owner's attitude and aggressive approach to maintain the monopole. It was bound to backfire. I say that as someone in branding and marketing. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2017 22:39:01 GMT
By your reasoning, as soon as Thomas Edison patented his gramophone, no one should have been able to improve on the design.
No, I'm not saying this at all. I think the ethical thing to do would be for Tonic to have licensed her "technology" and improved the design.
I've read how she challenged people making their own, and I agree it was not the most business savvy decision she made.
We don't know what happened behind closed doors. Maybe Tim/Tonic did ask and she treated them horribly like she has with so many people. We will never know. But I do know that both Tim and Tonic carry themselves with integrity, class and professionalism. So we will never know what transpired, but I bet she wasn't the nicest person to work with. |
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 7:26:12 GMT
I will be the first to admit I don't know anything about patent law. I am not trying to be ignorant. In my top things I want to learn, patent law is not one of them. I don't trust her as a business. She has shown me on this forum how she conducts business. I don't trust her to provide good customer service. She's is up there with PTI, & Teresa Collins for me. There are so many crafting companies that do provide good service I would like to support them like Gina K, or a small Etsy seller, etc.... Misti lady has really strong values about things. I have really strong values about things. My values don't agree with hers. I am sure she's not crying about it. I know a lot of you are shaking your head yes. We spend our hard earned money on values. It was one of the first things I use to teach in frugality. If it goes against your values, don't even put a $1.00 down. Tim knows he's not innovative. Tim is good at improving on tools and other items. You know I really love Tim's ephemera collection. I have a lot of those designs in my old vintage books. I am thinking Tim has been looking through books, lol. His ephemera is a hot seller even with us who collect vintage ephemera. Tim has improved on vintage ephemera. It is lovely high quality. Tim makes high quality products. Tim's style is not my style. I am definitely not a fan girl. I do respect the way Tim runs a business. I love that he's always sweet. That is a hard balance to maintain in this industry. Tim hasn't lost sight of who he is. scrappymom- Ten thousand times yes about Tonic. I buy so much Tonic items because of their integrity, class & professionalism. This is what I look for in a company. |
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 12:51:33 GMT
Wonder if Tonic would challenge? www.gordonrees.com/newsroom/2012/new-ways-to-challenge-patents-both-before-and-after-they-issuePost Grant Review: The new Post Grant Review procedure allows a 3rd party to submit reasons (and prior art) as to why the issued patent should not have been allowed. Importantly, it must be filed within 9 months of the patent’s issuance. However, Post Grant Review can only be used on issued patents with filing dates after March 16, 2013. Therefore, this procedure won’t even likely be used until 2014 at the earliest. In a Post Grant Review, the 3rd party can submit prior art references and argue that the patent should not have been allowed as being obvious or anticipated (i.e.: violate sections 103 or 102). That is similar to the way patent reexaminations have always been conducted. However, what is completely new and especially important is that the 3rd party may also argue that the claims are to non-statutory subject matter (i.e.: violate section 101), or that they are vaguely worded or indefinite (i.e.: violate section 112). In addition, the petitioner can also introduce evidence that the patent should not have been allowed because the owner violated an on-sale or public use bar (i.e.: show that the invention was in the public realm for more than one year prior to the filing of the application). Thus, this new procedure will open a wealth of opportunities to challenge issued patents without having to go to federal court." I hope so. In my opinion, the patent should not have been granted. A letter press, stamp press, printing press was invented hundreds of years ago. All recent comers are just improvements/revisions of Gutenberg and unless identical to one another, should be allowed to go forward, just as we have dozens of versions of other tools in every hobby/craft you can think of. |
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 14:34:19 GMT
Damn @zingermack you are amazing! You need to email this to Tonic. |
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tracylynn
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by tracylynn on May 12, 2017 15:34:53 GMT
I can't see that Tim Holtz has ever really invented anything, he has only taken something that was already out there, put his big name on it, and marketed it well with a large financial backer behind him. All those things that they put out are just regurgitations (Tim calls them innovations) of the same products that are already there. Gelatos - Distress Crayons Nick Bantock Inks - Distress Ink Chalk Ink - Oxide Ink Misti - Stamp Platform Glitter - Distress Glitter see a pattern? It's not Tim that has a patent. Tim did not invent anything. You may not think Ilyana deserved a patent for something that you think was already invented, but the US Patent office saw it differently. But you are all the experts on patent law it seems. Patents can, and have been, revoked if it's proven that it really isn't different. She ought to be careful, or she might see her patent vanish. Spellbinders lost their patent on thin metal dies when they sued Quickutz. This dates back to 2010 or so. |
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
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Post by scrapnnana on May 13, 2017 5:18:00 GMT
Damn @zingermack you are amazing! You need to email this to Tonic. I totally agree....on both counts! |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2017 20:53:23 GMT
Damn @zingermack you are amazing! You need to email this to Tonic. I totally agree....on both counts! Aw shucks. Flattery will get you everywhere. But I bet Tonic has access to good attys to advise them. I hope they fight. |
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
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Post by scrapnnana on May 14, 2017 3:27:12 GMT
I hope Tonic fights it out in court, too.
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mamakitty82
One Post Wonder
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Post by mamakitty82 on May 23, 2017 10:19:39 GMT
From what I've seen of the stamping tools recently put on the market, MSP did have a case against certain companies. HA put out a tool which appeared to be an exact duplicate of the stamping tool by MSP (except for the color). There were no significant changes or improvements. It could be argued that the WRMK tool was similar, although, to be honest, the MISTI (which I happen to own) is a superior tool. However, MSP's claims that the TH/Tonic tool infringes on her patent is completely out of order. In my opinion, the TH/Tonic product has made significant changes and improvements over the MSP stamping tool. [Over 10 years ago I purchased "The Original Rubber Stamp Press by Cyndi Lu Designs". It is a wooden stamp press with layers of foam that you can remove in order to get the proper stamping pressure. It had a large velcro area on the top, and the layers of foam were on the bottom. You simply put a small piece of velcro on the top of you wooden stamp (this was before clear or cling stamps really hit the market), and adjusted the foam to the right pressure. At that time, there were no other stamping tools on the available.] While the MSP tool it is an improvement from my old wooden stamping press, it is in no way a "new" idea. Her case against the TH/Tonic tool has about as much validity as CLD would have against MSP. I believe that MSP's case is a frivolous lawsuit, based on bitterness and jealousy that someone else came out with a better product. The TH/Tonic tool has a more versatile and sturdy design, and is easier to use, with a lower price point than the MSP tool. Not to mention that Tonic has much better customer service. If all improvements over existing products were patent infringements, we'd still be driving around in Ford Model Ts. I hope that Tonic fights this lawsuit. Based on timelines and product development, there is absolutely no way that TH could have copied the MSP product and come out with his version in the time period from receiving the MISTI to the Tonic release. I've worked in contract law and it would have taken almost that length of time just to get the contracts hammered out, much less product development and production. I hope this is resolved soon, because I can't wait to purchase my Tonic stamping tool.
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
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Post by scrapnnana on May 23, 2017 18:11:20 GMT
From what I've seen of the stamping tools recently put on the market, MSP did have a case against certain companies. HA put out a tool which appeared to be an exact duplicate of the stamping tool by MSP (except for the color). There were no significant changes or improvements. It could be argued that the WRMK tool was similar, although, to be honest, the MISTI (which I happen to own) is a superior tool. However, MSP's claims that the TH/Tonic tool infringes on her patent is completely out of order. In my opinion, the TH/Tonic product has made significant changes and improvements over the MSP stamping tool. [Over 10 years ago I purchased "The Original Rubber Stamp Press by Cyndi Lu Designs". It is a wooden stamp press with layers of foam that you can remove in order to get the proper stamping pressure. It had a large velcro area on the top, and the layers of foam were on the bottom. You simply put a small piece of velcro on the top of you wooden stamp (this was before clear or cling stamps really hit the market), and adjusted the foam to the right pressure. At that time, there were no other stamping tools on the available.] While the MSP tool it is an improvement from my old wooden stamping press, it is in no way a "new" idea. Her case against the TH/Tonic tool has about as much validity as CLD would have against MSP. I believe that MSP's case is a frivolous lawsuit, based on bitterness and jealousy that someone else came out with a better product. The TH/Tonic tool has a more versatile and sturdy design, and is easier to use, with a lower price point than the MSP tool. Not to mention that Tonic has much better customer service. If all improvements over existing products were patent infringements, we'd still be driving around in Ford Model Ts. I hope that Tonic fights this lawsuit. Based on timelines and product development, there is absolutely no way that TH could have copied the MSP product and come out with his version in the time period from receiving the MISTI to the Tonic release. I've worked in contract law and it would have taken almost that length of time just to get the contracts hammered out, much less product development and production. I hope this is resolved soon, because I can't wait to purchase my Tonic stamping tool. Thanks for your comments, and welcome to the board! |
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Post by LisaDV on Jun 1, 2017 2:07:42 GMT
I hope the change is for the better and doesn't make it less useful. I can't imagine that it was infringing on my bitter Petunia since the Tonic one is significantly different w/the switching lid - which is GENIUS.  I think their design was better and not in any way an infringement on the other. Although I don't think the other should have be issued a patent to begin with. ETA* I should have waited until I read the whole thread. @zingermack, I would love to see the patent revoked. If only a larger power would fight it. Thanks for sharing that. |
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Post by gale w on Jun 1, 2017 3:41:03 GMT
I just read today that it's supposed to start shipping out the 3rd week of June.
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
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Post by scrapnnana on Jun 1, 2017 14:01:04 GMT
I just read today that it's supposed to start shipping out the 3rd week of June. WOOHOO!!! Thanks for the update! |
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Post by cbet on Jun 1, 2017 14:02:31 GMT
I just read today that it's supposed to start shipping out the 3rd week of June. Yesssssssss! I almost never do preorders, but I did for Tim's platform, and the wait has been ~~killing~~ me. Thanks for sharing this! |
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
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Post by scrapnnana on Jun 1, 2017 19:33:34 GMT
Okay, now that it looks more hopeful that Tonic's stamp platform will finally be released this month, where to preorder, please?
I know it's somewhere in all the threads, but they have gotten pretty lengthy to go through.
Thanks!
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Post by cbet on Jun 1, 2017 19:38:07 GMT
Okay, now that it looks more hopeful that Tonic's stamp platform will finally be released this month, where to preorder, please? I know it's somewhere in all the threads, but they have gotten pretty lengthy to go through. Thanks! I preordered mine from Marco Paper - 20% off (31.99) and free shipping until their first shipment arrives. I didn't really check other sites, because I've ordered from Marco before and had good experiences. www.marcopaper.com/products.php?product=Tim-Holtz%C2%AE-Stamp-Platform-%28Expected-in-June-2017%29 |
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Post by tampascrapper on Jun 1, 2017 20:15:26 GMT
Glad to hear it is finally going to ship!
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
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Post by scrapnnana on Jun 1, 2017 20:56:24 GMT
Okay, now that it looks more hopeful that Tonic's stamp platform will finally be released this month, where to preorder, please? I know it's somewhere in all the threads, but they have gotten pretty lengthy to go through. Thanks! I preordered mine from Marco Paper - 20% off (31.99) and free shipping until their first shipment arrives. I didn't really check other sites, because I've ordered from Marco before and had good experiences. www.marcopaper.com/products.php?product=Tim-Holtz%C2%AE-Stamp-Platform-%28Expected-in-June-2017%29Thank you! |
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altenewLOVER4ever
Shy Member
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Location: Peace and light
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Post by altenewLOVER4ever on Jun 2, 2017 1:51:31 GMT
Dies have been out for a long time and the circle is a common item.... This is addressed in the lawsuit in more proper language. But there are many more original dies ( like some of tattered laces) that cannot be sold on the US... However you can buy unbranded dies from China at ridiculously cheap prices. i think if any of you had created the Misti, invested in it, and were now marketing it, you would be a lot more protective of it than you think. I mean, the first copy didn't even change the color! And I think it is interesting that Tonic came out with the new tool about two months after Tim received A Misti that was specially made for him in brown. Tim used it and praised it on his blog. Since when do we cheer for big corporations over the Little guy? do you really think Ilyana ( so??) is a millionaire? I have no clue, i have all all three sizes of the Misti.... Still using my original, hand assembled one, cracks and all, with a new one in a drawer waiting for the day it becomes unusable. That said, I did preorder time tool..... Although I think changing the lid is going to be a lot more bothersome than the stamp oaf in the Misti See the the actual suit here: search.rpxcorp.com/litigation_documents/12399889Well, if you read the actual suit you posted, in #10 is states that millions of dollars in sales have been generated. Considering that others have sold what you are correct in saying is essentially the same product for half the price she has sold it for, she probably is a millionaire. I don't think most people think that she didn't have a case. What most people's issue is the fact that she wouldn't replace her defective product, in some cases blamed the customer for the cracks, and the rabid way she's gone after people ~ on this message board, on FB, in letters. She threatened to sue people who made their own. You know, the same way she saw how a letterpress worked and then made her own. I loved the product, but even before there were alternatives to it, wouldn't have given her a dime because of how nasty she was. I couldn't have said it better myself. Even if she was still considered a 'small' business (which, overseas manufacturing does not a small business make), I would never give a cent of my money to a nasty person like MSP. |
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altenewLOVER4ever
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Location: Peace and light
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Post by altenewLOVER4ever on Jun 2, 2017 1:58:04 GMT
Tim Holtz's genius is in how he decides to take an existing concept and develop it far beyond what's on the market. He's at the stage where he's now adding evolutions to his own initial "improvements". Distress Oxide is such a gem. And I say that as a scrapper whose style is nothing like TH's. But he takes products, thinks through everything that isn't quite right or doesn't meet his standards and puts something that is often far better on the market. Even the paper made with Tonic is far more agreeable to use than the normal non-branded Tonic one. No, I'm not saying this at all. I think the ethical thing to do would be for Tonic to have licensed her "technology" and improved the design. She didn't invent any technology. She improved on the good ol' portable printing press which was very much in use up until the early 20th century. Hinges and all. The principle was exactly the same: put the image you wanted printed on there, add ink and paper, splat close like a sandwich, voilà. I don't think she deserves to be paid a license for adding a magnetic surface or using an acrylic plate (like all clear stamp blocks did way before her). How she got her patent is still beyond me. And I really fail to see how Tonic hasn't acted ethically in this case. sleepingbooty, I couldn't have said it better myself. We can only hope that the litigators fighting it out in court on behalf of TH are up to speed on the history of this technology and will be able to help the court (and the crafting world) realize that M(bitter)P didn't invent squat, but merely improved on an existing technology. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2017 7:22:16 GMT
The only thing that depresses me about Tonic's press being released this June is that it fell during E3? Really Tim & Tonic? I have games to pre-order!!!!! ROFL! You just cut into my gaming budget. I am really excited about the release date. I do think the HA was a copy of hers. I was pretty surprised to see it. I thought she made a blue Misti. I do understand how that would be very upsetting. I don't understand why she didn't work out something amicable with them. These are her peers. I don't know I guess I have weird values. I would want to protect my intellectual property but I would not want to burn bridges either and treat my peers like their villain's. All of these crafting companies were or are small businesses. |
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altenewLOVER4ever
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Post by altenewLOVER4ever on Jun 6, 2017 3:56:33 GMT
Does anyone even have any clue yet about what the difference between 1708e and 1707e is? I'm wondering if the change they have made to the product is going to make it even a fraction less useful.
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GiantsFan
Prolific Pea
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Post by GiantsFan on Jun 6, 2017 14:44:50 GMT
Does anyone even have any clue yet about what the difference between 1708e and 1707e is? I'm wondering if the change they have made to the product is going to make it even a fraction less useful. Maybe the change will make it better. |
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Post by gale w on Jun 6, 2017 16:20:10 GMT
A vendor told me only the ruler was changed.
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Post by streetscrapper on Jun 6, 2017 20:51:59 GMT
Does anyone even have any clue yet about what the difference between 1708e and 1707e is? I'm wondering if the change they have made to the product is going to make it even a fraction less useful. Haven't seen a thing about the new one but am dying to know what they did to change it! |
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No, I'm not saying this at all. I think the ethical thing to do would be for Tonic to have licensed her "technology" and improved the design. She didn't invent any technology. She improved on the good ol' portable printing press which was very much in use up until the early 20th century. Hinges and all. The principle was exactly the same: put the image you wanted printed on there, add ink and paper, splat close like a sandwich, voilà. I don't think she deserves to be paid a license for adding a magnetic surface or using an acrylic plate (like all clear stamp blocks did way before her). How she got her patent is still beyond me. And I really fail to see how Tonic hasn't acted ethically in this case. 
With the price of the Tonic, if it works as well as it looks like it will work and if it's as well made as Tonic's other tools, I'd seriously consider buying a 2nd just for clear stamps and then I'd never have to flip the lid anyway 
