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Post by carly on Aug 22, 2014 0:02:17 GMT
I am so glad this judge has ruled this unconstitutional. Why should some get vouchers. This has been a hot topic in my circle. link
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Post by dulcemama on Aug 22, 2014 0:04:56 GMT
Hopefully this will spread to other states.
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Deleted
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Oct 10, 2024 8:22:16 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2014 0:10:33 GMT
I don't think I like the idea of private secular schools receiving state funding.
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Post by freecharlie on Aug 22, 2014 0:45:29 GMT
I don't think I like the idea of private secular schools receiving state funding. But private religious schools are okay?
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Post by freecharlie on Aug 22, 2014 0:53:42 GMT
And as usual, the people who don't quite qualify for reduced lunch get completely screwed. They can't afford to send their child to a private school and they can't pay out of pocket.
That said, is $4,200 enough to pay for an entire year?
That has got to be the biggest load of crap on here. Nobody forced the families to apply for the voucher and it certainly wasn't the public school system wanting to lose that per student funding. Parents typically send their child to a private school because it offers something they can't get at a public school whether it be religious education, better academics, a particular sport, or because it is safer.
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scrappinghappy
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by scrappinghappy on Aug 22, 2014 1:33:22 GMT
The one religious private school we looked into sending our kids t is $14,000 PER YEAR for k-4 and then it goes up, and up, and up. Not happening, that money is earmarked for college not school.
$4,200 wouldn't get a low income kid into the school either. There are scholarships from other religious groups to help lower income families get their kids into the school but they's have to meet the religious requirements and some other stuff.
It's really not as simple as give them money and they will go.
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Post by freecharlie on Aug 22, 2014 2:01:56 GMT
That is what I was assuming, but I wasn't sure.
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on Aug 22, 2014 2:09:21 GMT
And as usual, the people who don't quite qualify for reduced lunch get completely screwed. They can't afford to send their child to a private school and they can't pay out of pocket. That said, is $4,200 enough to pay for an entire year? That has got to be the biggest load of crap on here. Nobody forced the families to apply for the voucher and it certainly wasn't the public school system wanting to lose that per student funding. Parents typically send their child to a private school because it offers something they can't get at a public school whether it be religious education, better academics, a particular sport, or because it is safer. = The biggest lie in all of this is the amount. The state allotment for a student is in the $7,000 range! So the state was definitely doing to push low income students out of the state system and save money to boot!! I'm glad it was rule unconstitutional!!!
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melissa
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 25, 2014 20:45:00 GMT
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Post by melissa on Aug 22, 2014 2:14:39 GMT
I would have loved to have had a voucher when dd went to private school, not that we would qualify under the conditions listed. But that amount wouldn't touch an independent secular private school education here.
Holy Cr@P! I just looked to see what the current tuition is at the school dd once attended. When dd left, we were paying a small fortune but this is worse. Current tuition is now 33K per year for the high school. It was in the low 20's a few years ago. Yes.. a 4K voucher would barely be a drop in the bucket. What is even more shocking is that I looked up the tuition at 3 other independent secular private schools in the area. 33K per year is lower than most.
Of course, someone eligible for a voucher like this would also be eligible for financial aid. I do know that dd's former private school does give hefty scholarships to bright local kids who need couldn't even think about attending otherwise.
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Post by lorieann13 on Aug 22, 2014 2:37:13 GMT
The two private Christian schools in my town are $5000 a year for Pre k and $5500 for k-5th, a little over $6000 for 6-8 and about $7400 for 9-12th.
The catholic school is $4700-5900 and Seventh Day Adv is 6800.
So yes the voucher would help here, but the parents would still be out a lot of money. And if they are on free/reduced they most likely wouldn't be able to afford it.
I do not like those vouchers.
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Post by megop on Aug 22, 2014 2:46:40 GMT
Hmmmm.....I think more to this story really. I think "vouchers" has a bad rap around it thinking it only for rich kids to go to private secular or non-secular schools. There are plenty of areas, where public school districts are in a shamble, and localities have set up charter schools that are showing some very real success in raising up at risk kids.
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Post by gryroagain on Aug 22, 2014 3:02:49 GMT
While I abhor public monies being spent for religious education, the sad fact is many of the kids who qualify for the program are facing dismal public schools and equally dismal backgrounds. Who can say if the caring attention at a small, even religious, school, wouldn't be the difference for these kids? The parents certainly can't afford to up and move to a better district. I hate the way our schools are funded, by the way.
It's such a small program that it would be interesting to see the outcome if it went ahead, if it made a difference. It probably is unconstitutional, but I would be curious to see.
I do think vouchers are a way to dismantle the public education system piecemeal, and I certainly don't want that.
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Post by lucyg on Aug 22, 2014 6:00:10 GMT
Yeah, my concern is that school vouchers are an attack on public education first and foremost, and then also that there isn't enough regulation of the private schools. It seems that everyplace that has tried to institute school vouchers has had lots of small private "schools" pop up that accept the vouchers as full payment. Well, that's not enough money to run a successful educational program. Someone's making a pile of money ripping off desperate families while providing substandard educations to their children.
I say we should put equal money into poor school districts as we do into rich ones, and then watch some of those students blossom.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2014 6:57:34 GMT
A question for those who have kids in private schools religious or secular, are the private schools better there? For the sake of argument we have say 5 local private schools. One is a Catholic school. Four of the five schools are outstanding in education. They surpass public schools however many times over. The Catholic high school scored lowest in the province. Our private schools are expensive but I am estimating 15-20,000 nothing like you guys are paying. That's incredible schools cost that much. Who can afford that kind of tuition?
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Post by momofkandn on Aug 22, 2014 11:43:08 GMT
A question for those who have kids in private schools religious or secular, are the private schools better there? For the sake of argument we have say 5 local private schools. One is a Catholic school. Four of the five schools are outstanding in education. They surpass public schools however many times over. The Catholic high school scored lowest in the province. Our private schools are expensive but I am estimating 15-20,000 nothing like you guys are paying. That's incredible schools cost that much. Who can afford that kind of tuition? It really depends on where you live. When my older girls started school, I had them in private schools because the public schools in my county were terrible. Even a mediocre education from the private school was better than public. But then I moved and started sending the girls to public school. I now live in a county that has the highest rates schools not only in the state but in the country. So the private schools could only hope to match the level of education. There is not a direct correlation between the money spent per student and the quality of the education. Some of the school districts that spend the most per student are also the worst. My hometown of DC is a prime example. No matter how much money they throw at the system, they still have not been able to bring the education up to an acceptable standard. Things have improved. But not enough in relation to the money spent. I think vouchers have pros and cons. But feel each state needs to make up their mind as to whether it makes sense for them. And I don't care that the money goes to religious schools. As long as secular schools are eligible then its fair in my mind. The money is going to educate the child. It doesn't matter to me which school is doing the educating from a constitutional viewpoint. If regulation and corruption are the only issues people have with vouchers, then fix those things. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. And I am sure there is corruption and breaking of the regulations within public school education too.
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back to *pea*ality
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by back to *pea*ality on Aug 22, 2014 11:53:12 GMT
With failing public schools in the City of Philadelphia parents are desperate for the opportunity to get their children into publicly funded charter schools. Admissions are a lottery process. Throwing more money into the school system isn't going to solve the systemic problems. Student beating up other students and teachers are daily occurrences.
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Post by scrapqueen01 on Aug 22, 2014 14:02:44 GMT
My dd goes to private Christian school. We do have some good public schools but several are failing. The private schools have much smaller classes. Behavior problems are for the most part non existent. Private schools can be more selective in who is allowed in and problem students can be kicked out. Several years ago a law was passed in my state that allowed school choice for those who live in a failing district. Public money can be used to send a child to another public or private school. Private schools do not have to accept public money. The Catholic school does accept public money for students. My dd's school has chosen not to accept that money. Personally I don't like the idea of private schools accepting public money.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Aug 22, 2014 14:45:42 GMT
Yeah, my concern is that school vouchers are an attack on public education first and foremost, and then also that there isn't enough regulation of the private schools. It seems that everyplace that has tried to institute school vouchers has had lots of small private "schools" pop up that accept the vouchers as full payment. Well, that's not enough money to run a successful educational program. Someone's making a pile of money ripping off desperate families while providing substandard educations to their children. I say we should put equal money into poor school districts as we do into rich ones, and then watch some of those students blossom. Unfortunately it's not that easy. Some of the highest per pupil spending occurs in districts in economically disadvantaged areas - and the reality is the students aren't blooming. They're dropping out. DC spends 2-3 times the national average per pupil - unfortunately that doesn't translate into better outcomes. This is an interesting article that compares the highest spending district (which is in NJ and spends $23,356) and the lowest spending district (which is in UT and spends $5,658). The article is from 2011, so the actual highest and lowest may have changed by now, but much of the reality in costs and extra expenses for struggling districts isn't going to be much different: Fiscal Times While I understand people's concerns about vouchers, what I like, is that it reengages parents. Of all the studies, nothing is as universally successful in positive outcomes, as engaged parents. My heart breaks for these parents who desperately want to get their children out of failing schools.
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Post by jonda1974 on Aug 22, 2014 16:28:11 GMT
Unfortunately our education system has deteriorated as a direct result of the founding of the Department of Education. So federal regulations in this case have ruined our education system as a whole not made it better. I would rather we do away with the DOE altogether. It's been useless pretty much.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2014 16:42:51 GMT
lost Lucy's quote -- it's a few posts up.
That's easy to say but harder to implement.....TX tried that from the late 1980's and onward and honestly I think it brought the "rich" ones down rather than the "poor" ones up. If you google "TX Robin Hood school funding" or "share the wealth funding" , there are lots of hits but many of them might be older since it happened in TX a while back. And ever since there have been lawsuits on one side or the other because of the allocation of resources. TX's constitution prevents the state from imposing a statewide property tax.
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Post by lucyg on Aug 22, 2014 17:27:43 GMT
As long as there are schools in poor districts where the students don't have basic supplies like up-to-date textbooks, you guys are not going to convince me that it's fine for kids in rich districts to have so much more opportunity in their schooling than kids in poor communities.
Although I would never argue that there isn't waste in the system, too. So work on fixing the waste if it bothers you. But don't use it as an excuse to shortchange the kids who need public education the most.
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mamashosh
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Post by mamashosh on Aug 22, 2014 17:58:22 GMT
People use the phrase 'throwing money at a problem' as though those of us promoting better funding for low income school districts think that money should be sent in willy nilly, with no thought or plan. Sure there is waste i the system. Personally, I think there should be less emphasis on high stakes testing (and all the costs associated with administering them, and analyzing the data) and much more money spent on staff development to create more effective teachers. Basic supplies should not even be a question.
I don't know how we can pride ourselves on having a democratic society when some children are not given nearly the same educational opportunities. Every child deserves a quality education (and quality food and quality housing and quality care).
Or I could have just said I agree with Lucy.
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Pearl Clutcher
Not my circus, not my monkeys ~refugee pea #59
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Post by back to *pea*ality on Aug 22, 2014 18:19:14 GMT
In the Commonweath of Pennsylvania over 20% of the state's educational budget is earmarked for the Philadelphia School District. The teachers there are the highest paid in the state. Funding is allocated to employ 400+ school police officers. What a waste of resources. It is the smaller more rural school districts between Philadelpha and Pittsburgh that do without not the low income school districts.
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Post by threegirls on Aug 22, 2014 20:35:23 GMT
Mom of three kids with vouchers here and I'm reporting from the trenches! I live in a state where vouchers are given to students whose assigned public school is under performing. They are not awarded based on family income. My daughters do not attend the public school. They attend a small, Catholic school that accepts vouchers. It is a school comprised of a mix of socio-economic levels, races and religions. It truly is a melting pot.
I can tell you that giving the public schools more money probably won't solve any problems. The assigned public school for my daughters is beautiful. It's about six years old. The district tore the old building down and built this beautiful, state-of-the-art school with all the bells and whistles. The teachers are some of the highest paid in the state. The books at this school are the exact same ones that are used at my duaghters' school (I know because the books are on loan from the public school and stamped with the school district's address). My daughters' school building is old (about 90 years old) but well maintained. The teachers are not paid nearly as much as the public teachers, the students use the same textbooks as the public school students. By all financial accounts, my daughters' school should be the under performing one and the bright, shiny one with all the technology in the world should be a stellar performer.
Unfortunately, I think that so many of the problems in schools stem from parents who are not involved in any aspect of their child's education. I'm not sure what society can do about that. It's such a big problem.
I'm thankful for the vouchers. If it were not for them, we would have been forced to move long ago. I can't tell you how much I appreciate being able to direct my tax dollars.
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Post by lucyg on Aug 22, 2014 21:45:09 GMT
threegirls, I am truly glad the vouchers are working out for your family. I would probably take advantage of them, too, under the circumstances. But here's the effect on the kids left in the public school: all the kids with involved, caring parents have left the public school to attend smaller private schools, an action made possible by everyone's tax dollars. The only kids left in the public school are the ones whose parents can't be bothered, and the school will now go even further downhill. These kids are the ones who MOST need a quality public education, and they're the ones LEAST getting it. I will always support fixing the public schools over giving the money away to private schools.
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Post by Tamhugh on Aug 22, 2014 22:05:07 GMT
Back to Peality, there are several districts in PA that pay more than Philadelphia city schools. Unless it has changed, Council Rock and some of the other Bucks County Schools are the highest paid in the state. I know that my district starts and maxes out slightly higher than Philly and we aren't even the highest in our county.
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Post by meridon on Aug 22, 2014 22:36:04 GMT
Yay! My state passed similar legislation two years ago. A whopping six students statewide used the vouchers because it offset the cost of private school by so little. As a public school teacher, I just don't think robbing Peter to pay Paul solves anything. I know kids everywhere deserve good schools regardless of income, but I don't think pulling funding from schools who are already struggling (which this does because it encourages students to leave, thus costing the public school money) will help.
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Pearl Clutcher
Not my circus, not my monkeys ~refugee pea #59
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Post by back to *pea*ality on Aug 22, 2014 23:02:33 GMT
Back to Peality, there are several districts in PA that pay more than Philadelphia city schools. Unless it has changed, Council Rock and some of the other Bucks County Schools are the highest paid in the state. I know that my district starts and maxes out slightly higher than Philly and we aren't even the highest in our county. True and your taxes pay those salaries and those are the coveted teaching positions in the Philly burbs. My point was that the state heavily subsidizes Philadelphia. Since I am local to that area (vs Pittsburgh) When school is in session a week doesn't go by with videotaped fighting of students, a teacher punched, a story about stolen computers or other property vandalized, a student raped in a stairwell, etc. - it's anarchy. The schools in the inner city are mother, father, psychologist, nutrition provider, disciplinarian then maybe finally education provider. As I said the problems are systemic. My school district taxes are astronomical how much more can we squeeze out of middle class people?
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Post by gardengoddess on Aug 22, 2014 23:15:06 GMT
As long as there are schools in poor districts where the students don't have basic supplies like up-to-date textbooks, you guys are not going to convince me that it's fine for kids in rich districts to have so much more opportunity in their schooling than kids in poor communities. Although I would never argue that there isn't waste in the system, too. So work on fixing the waste if it bothers you. But don't use it as an excuse to shortchange the kids who need public education the most. This is my thinking also regarding the disparity between kids in rich district vs. poor communities. You want private school......pay for it yourself. If your argument is "I pay property taxes that go to the public schools that I don't use"....sorry, that's the price to pay for living in society today. Good schools only help your property value and if you live in a state or city who doesn't invest that tax money on your schools, then complain at the voter booth.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2014 23:35:12 GMT
What makes a good school good and a bad school bad? Do some states not have set curricula? Do all schools not have the same textbooks or materials i.e. science labs with bunsen burners? Or soccer balls for PE?
I don't know what it is like in our lower income schools but the province has provided basically the same materials for all schools.
I wasn't impressed with my son's high school but there wasn't anything terrible about it either. I found the teachers I dealt with were there for a paycheque and clocked in and out each week. (They are on strike in the province right now so who knows when that will be settled).
I am trying to get a better understanding about education in the US.
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