Deleted
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Jul 2, 2024 3:15:53 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2017 17:08:17 GMT
While I agree what this family did was probably shifty according to United's policies, I think what we are finally seeing is a push back against unfair airline policies.
If an airline refuses to refund cancellations then the seat is should NOT be theirs to sell again- it should still belong to the flier, whether or not they are on the plane. They have already collected the money for that seat. Why should they be allowed to double dip? They do it because we allow it and no one pushes back against such policies. Airlines should only be allowed to sell seats once. That is it. No one else is allowed to sell a single item to multiple people, why is it acceptable for airlines to do so?
If they want to be able to resell the seat, then they need to be willing to refund the original buyer, once it is resold. That is how everything else operates.
And that is what the father was saying according to this video They're reselling a seat that he has already paid for
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tduby1
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,979
Jun 27, 2014 18:32:45 GMT
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Post by tduby1 on May 4, 2017 17:10:42 GMT
While I agree what this family did was probably shifty according to United's policies, I think what we are finally seeing is a push back against unfair airline policies.
If an airline refuses to refund cancellations then the seat is should NOT be theirs to sell again- it should still belong to the flier, whether or not they are on the plane. They have already collected the money for that seat. Why should they be allowed to double dip? They do it because we allow it and no one pushes back against such policies. Airlines should only be allowed to sell seats once. That is it. No one else is allowed to sell a single item to multiple people, why is it acceptable for airlines to do so?
If they want to be able to resell the seat, then they need to be willing to refund the original buyer, once it is resold. That is how everything else operates.
Delta - fyi opps. sorry. But all airlines do this and I think it is wrong.
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happymomma
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,078
Aug 6, 2014 23:57:56 GMT
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Post by happymomma on May 4, 2017 17:13:07 GMT
While I agree what this family did was probably shifty according to United's policies, I think what we are finally seeing is a push back against unfair airline policies.
If an airline refuses to refund cancellations then the seat is should NOT be theirs to sell again- it should still belong to the flier, whether or not they are on the plane. They have already collected the money for that seat. Why should they be allowed to double dip? They do it because we allow it and no one pushes back against such policies. Airlines should only be allowed to sell seats once. That is it. No one else is allowed to sell a single item to multiple people, why is it acceptable for airlines to do so?
If they want to be able to resell the seat, then they need to be willing to refund the original buyer, once it is resold. That is how everything else operates.
And that is what the father was saying according to this video They're reselling a seat that he has already paid forYour link brings me back to this thread.
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tduby1
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,979
Jun 27, 2014 18:32:45 GMT
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Post by tduby1 on May 4, 2017 17:13:16 GMT
While I agree what this family did was probably shifty according to United's policies, I think what we are finally seeing is a push back against unfair airline policies.
If an airline refuses to refund cancellations then the seat is should NOT be theirs to sell again- it should still belong to the flier, whether or not they are on the plane. They have already collected the money for that seat. Why should they be allowed to double dip? They do it because we allow it and no one pushes back against such policies. Airlines should only be allowed to sell seats once. That is it. No one else is allowed to sell a single item to multiple people, why is it acceptable for airlines to do so?
If they want to be able to resell the seat, then they need to be willing to refund the original buyer, once it is resold. That is how everything else operates.
And that is what the father was saying according to this video They're reselling a seat that he has already paid forI know and I agree, they shouldn't be able to do that. Sadly, right now their policies make it so they can. I disagree that they should be able to. The only reason I used the word shifty was because currently it IS against policy- I think the policy stinks.
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Post by Darcy Collins on May 4, 2017 17:17:32 GMT
TSA scans the boarding passes. I'm pretty sure that if you check in online, but never go through security it shows up as a no-show on the airlines computer. I can't see a way that the family could have successfully fooled the airline that the older child was on the plane, which they would have needed to do for the airline to not be reassigning that seat to a waitlisted passenger. They weren't successful since they were removed from the plane. I didn't know the TSA keeps track of no shows for all the airlines. I thought it would come from passengers not checking in or not boarding/boarding on time. I was just speculating on how they got around the TSA without the son. I'm not certain (and it may vary by airport) - but I know on one flight we'd gone through security, but stopped to get some dinner before heading to our gate to board our flight. The airline was paging us and the personnel at the gate certainly knew from their computer terminal that we'd been through security. Ultimately though to fool the airline they would have had to scan the boarding pass at the gate-and that would have had to show that they were screened by TSA - and TSA would have been looking for an ID for the 18 year old - which is why I'm saying they would have had to work really, really hard to scam their way into trying to use the older child's boarding pass for the younger child.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Jul 2, 2024 3:15:53 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2017 17:23:28 GMT
I know and I agree, they shouldn't be able to do that. Sadly, right now their policies make it so they can. I disagree that they should be able to. The only reason I used the word shifty was because currently it IS against policy- I think the policy stinks. I agree they shouldn't be allowed to do that.If the seat has been paid for,someone doesn't turn up then the airline hasn't lost any money so they are not out of pocket.
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Post by Darcy Collins on May 4, 2017 17:25:26 GMT
I actually don't have a problem with overbooking flights - I know it's not a popular opinion right now. But people forget that tickets may not be refundable - but they are typically transferable and depending on flare class with no change fee. Anywhere from 5-15% of passengers are no shows - and despite what people gere are saying here, the airline does NOT get to keep that revenue when you're a no show. I've changed my flights thousands of times - with no change fees as I my fare class allowed changes. For the airline to NOT overbook flights, they will need to make tickets non-refundable and non-changeable. I for one am not a fan of that change. And business travelers - the most likely no show category who make up 60% of airlines revenue, are not going to be a fan of it either. I'm for BETTER policies in dealing with overbooking, but not getting rid of it all together.
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Post by Darcy Collins on May 4, 2017 17:26:46 GMT
I know and I agree, they shouldn't be able to do that. Sadly, right now their policies make it so they can. I disagree that they should be able to. The only reason I used the word shifty was because currently it IS against policy- I think the policy stinks. I agree they shouldn't be allowed to do that.If the seat has been paid for,someone doesn't turn up then the airline hasn't lost any money so they are not out of pocket. This isn't true. The airline absolutely loses money as the no-show has the right to transfer that ticket value to a future flight.
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christinec68
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,185
Location: New York, NY
Jun 26, 2014 18:02:19 GMT
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Post by christinec68 on May 4, 2017 17:28:08 GMT
They weren't successful since they were removed from the plane. I didn't know the TSA keeps track of no shows for all the airlines. I thought it would come from passengers not checking in or not boarding/boarding on time. I was just speculating on how they got around the TSA without the son. I'm not certain (and it may vary by airport) - but I know on one flight we'd gone through security, but stopped to get some dinner before heading to our gate to board our flight. The airline was paging us and the personnel at the gate certainly knew from their computer terminal that we'd been through security. Ultimately though to fool the airline they would have had to scan the boarding pass at the gate-and that would have had to show that they were screened by TSA - and TSA would have been looking for an ID for the 18 year old - which is why I'm saying they would have had to work really, really hard to scam their way into trying to use the older child's boarding pass for the younger child. It seems they were trying to pull one over the airline and were not aware of the links between security and the gate (as I was not either ). That's probably why they are just asking for an apology and not for compensation.
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Post by leftturnonly on May 4, 2017 17:40:06 GMT
Schear explained to KABC that he’d sent his 18-year-old son home on an earlier flight so the 2-year-old could have the seat. That's the mistake right there, IMO. You can't just give your ticket to someone else. Life has gotten so damn complicated since 9/11.
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likescarrots
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,879
Aug 16, 2014 17:52:53 GMT
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Post by likescarrots on May 4, 2017 17:41:07 GMT
There's no way they could have boarded with 3 tickets - the other individual wasn't there to show his ID (and as an 18 year old he would have been expected to show ID). And let's assume for a second that they pulled a fast one on TSA and convinced them that the toddler was the 18 year old - it never would have shown up as an available seat in the system and they wouldn't have gotten on the plane and told them to move their kid. They could have checked in online and printed their own boarding passes. They would have to show id to check bags but they must have only presented their own tickets - not everyone travelling together arrives at the airport at the same time. TSA has no idea how many people are in each travelling party. After that, you ordinarily don't need to present ID again when it's time to board the plane. If they printed out his boarding pass, they could quite easily get on the plane with it. I don't think the scanner reveals anything other than the passenger name and seat assignment. If they did this, then I can see where it violates some FAA law about switching out passengers. Threatening to throw the whole family in jail was a reach. But I am not sure how the flight attendants put two and two together. The baby and toddler were listed as lap children and now one is in a seat which didn't match the airline's manifest? I can't tell if they used the son's boarding pass or if they just assumed the seat would be theirs since they paid for three tickets (four if the new ticket for the son's earlier flight). I am confused about the car seat comment in that they are not permitted...are there car seats that are not compliant with FAA regulations? the airline has your birth date so they could easily figure out that it wasn't the right passenger. If they didn't scan the ticket at the gate then the attendants probably came to see if anyone was sitting in the seat and realized it wasn't the right person. Honestly it would be a little scary if they weren't paying attention to that, anyone that got into the airport could then get on any plane that wasn't being monitored closely.
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Post by annabella on May 4, 2017 17:42:08 GMT
I've changed my flights thousands of times - with no change fees as I my fare class allowed changes. What airline is this? Did you buy the most expensive ticket to begin with? Did you employer buy your ticket? I didn't know the TSA keeps track of no shows for all the airlines. I thought it would come from passengers not checking in or not boarding/boarding on time. I was just speculating on how they got around the TSA without the son. How do they do that? When I fly, to my memory, the TSA agent before I go through the x-ray machine, just looks at my ticket and compares the name to my passport and looks at me. Then he takes a black pen and makes a mark on my ticket (what for I don't know?). He is standing at a wooden podium, not a computer desk. If there was a computer scan in there somewhere I have not seen it? I haven't flown in 1.5 years, perhaps this is new?
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quiltz
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,760
Location: CANADA
Jun 29, 2014 16:13:28 GMT
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Post by quiltz on May 4, 2017 17:44:42 GMT
That's the mistake right there, IMO. You can't just give your ticket to someone else. Life has gotten so damn complicated since 9/11. Life has gotten so damn complicated since social media is available to many people. I think that there are a lot of people who don't read the rules/regulations/restrictions when it comes to airline tickets and other items and with the *help* of social media, are simply playing up their "Well I didn't *think*, *know* and other descriptions. If you are spending money on something, please read the contract with that ageement.
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Post by jamielynn on May 4, 2017 17:45:00 GMT
I don't know what happened concerning the ticket. What I do know is, Delta will not allow carseats even when the toddler has paid for the seat. I think that is ridiculous. They think their little seatbelt is more secure than a harness that carseat has? My DGD was sliding all over the seat during take off and landing. That is completely false. I have flown with my toddler in a car seat on Delta flights at least 15 times with no issues in the last few years. The car seat does however need to be an airline approved seat which have stickers on them showing they can be used. All the car seats we've owned or considered purchasing have this. The bottom only boosters that are like $20 at target I believe don't and I'm sure some brands in general don't. I have been disallowed car seat use only in two circumstances: When flying first class on some planes the seats do not forward face, they angle. The car seat manufacturer will not allow the car seat to be used if not forward facing seats - in that circumstance my toddler could not use the car seats and I knew that when booking the seats from speaking to britax. The second circumstance was booking those seats up front that you pay extra for (not first class) some newer planes have airbags in those seat belts. The car seat again disallows use with those, as does the airline, and frankly you can't even install a car seat with that extra bulk anyway. Per the FAA you can't use a seatbelt extended in that circumstance but I forget the logic of why. I wasn't aware of this but was seated a few rows back from booked when I said the preference was using the car seat vs plane side checking it and keeping the larger seats.
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peasquared
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,536
Jul 6, 2014 23:59:59 GMT
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Post by peasquared on May 4, 2017 17:47:36 GMT
I don't know what happened concerning the ticket. What I do know is, Delta will not allow carseats even when the toddler has paid for the seat. I think that is ridiculous. They think their little seatbelt is more secure than a harness that carseat has? My DGD was sliding all over the seat during take off and landing. That is compleyely false. I have flown with my toddler in a car seat on Delta flights at least 15 times with no issues in the last few years. The car seat does however need to be an airline approved seat which have stickers on them showing they can be used. All the car seats we've owned or considered purchasing have this. The bottom only boosters that are like $20 at target I believe don't and I'm sure some brands in general don't. I have been disallowed car seat use only in two circumstances: When flying first class on some planes the seats do not forward face, they angle. The car seat manufacturer will not allow the car seat to be used if not forward facing seats - in that circumstance my toddler could not use the car seats s I knew that when booking the seats from speaking to britax. The second circumstance was booking those seats up front that you play extra for (not first class) some newer planes have airbags in those seat belts. The car seat again disallows use with those, as does the airline, and frankly you can't even install a car seat with that extra bulk anyway. Per the FAA you can't use a seatbelt extended in that circumstance but I forget the logic of why. I wasn't aware of this but was seated a few rows back from booked when I said the preference was using the car seat vs plane side checking it and keeping the larger seats. That has not been the case for me. Perhaps it depends on the size of the carrier. I fly out of a very small airport.
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Post by Darcy Collins on May 4, 2017 17:47:58 GMT
I've changed my flights thousands of times - with no change fees as I my fare class allowed changes. What airline is this? Did you buy the most expensive ticket to begin with? Did you employer buy your ticket? I didn't know the TSA keeps track of no shows for all the airlines. I thought it would come from passengers not checking in or not boarding/boarding on time. I was just speculating on how they got around the TSA without the son. How do they do that? When I fly, to my memory, the TSA agent before I go through the x-ray machine, just looks at my ticket and compares the name to my passport and looks at me. Then he takes a black pen and makes a mark on my ticket (what for I don't know?). He is standing at a wooden podium, not a computer desk. If there was a computer scan in there somewhere I have not seen it? I haven't flown in 1.5 years, perhaps this is new? United mostly, but other airlines as well. Yes my employer buys full fare tickets precisely because changes are inevitable with business travel. Most airports now have a scanner at TSA - I can't think of an airport that doesn't - but maybe some of the smaller ones or ones I don't fly to regularly.
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Post by jamielynn on May 4, 2017 17:48:51 GMT
That is compleyely false. I have flown with my toddler in a car seat on Delta flights at least 15 times with no issues in the last few years. The car seat does however need to be an airline approved seat which have stickers on them showing they can be used. All the car seats we've owned or considered purchasing have this. The bottom only boosters that are like $20 at target I believe don't and I'm sure some brands in general don't. I have been disallowed car seat use only in two circumstances: When flying first class on some planes the seats do not forward face, they angle. The car seat manufacturer will not allow the car seat to be used if not forward facing seats - in that circumstance my toddler could not use the car seats s I knew that when booking the seats from speaking to britax. The second circumstance was booking those seats up front that you play extra for (not first class) some newer planes have airbags in those seat belts. The car seat again disallows use with those, as does the airline, and frankly you can't even install a car seat with that extra bulk anyway. Per the FAA you can't use a seatbelt extended in that circumstance but I forget the logic of why. I wasn't aware of this but was seated a few rows back from booked when I said the preference was using the car seat vs plane side checking it and keeping the larger seats. That has not been the case for me. Perhaps it depends on the size of the carrier. I fly out of a very small airport. Super interesting. We fly regional sometimes too. Was the seat physically too large to be properly installed?
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Jul 2, 2024 3:15:53 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2017 17:50:07 GMT
I agree they shouldn't be allowed to do that.If the seat has been paid for,someone doesn't turn up then the airline hasn't lost any money so they are not out of pocket. This isn't true. The airline absolutely loses money as the no-show has the right to transfer that ticket value to a future flight. But that isn't what happened in this case. And it isn't always convenient to use a transfer for value of the ticket. What if it's a one off vacation which is what happened to a member of my family once. She was due to go the US and she was taken ill and although she was well enough to travel her Dr advised her not to as a precaution as they hadn't fully found out what had caused her to be sick in the first place. So he was concerned that it might bother her again while she was away. Her daughter rang the airline explained what had happened and they offered her a ticket transfer valid for 12 months which to her was useless as she had no intention of going to the US in the future. Fortunately she had travel insurance but she still had to wait 12 months for that transfer time to end before they would confirm that she was a no show. They re sold that ticket immediately at the time of the original date as there was someone sitting next to her son in law ( her assigned seat as they had pre booked seats ). So in her case they received two payments for one seat and it cost her extra as her deductible was taken off the insurance pay out 13 months later.
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peasquared
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,536
Jul 6, 2014 23:59:59 GMT
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Post by peasquared on May 4, 2017 17:51:23 GMT
Super interesting. We fly regional sometimes too. Was the seat physically too large to be properly installed? We thought it fit properly, but both times I have tried, they took it away and green checked it. I'm happy to hear that isn't the policy nation-wide.
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Post by jamielynn on May 4, 2017 17:54:48 GMT
Super interesting. We fly regional sometimes too. Was the seat physically too large to be properly installed? We thought it fit properly, but both times I have tried, they took it away and green checked it. I'm happy to hear that isn't the policy nation-wide. With a britax seat they weren't thrilled a few times that it pretty much touched the seat in front of us, but my child's legs were crossed (which is usual) and they did allow it. I think often times they don't like it as it's extra time/hassle and maybe the guest in front sometimes wants to recline and can't? I can say though I've never had an issue but always have my FAA policy paperwork handy if I'm hassled.
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Post by kernriver on May 4, 2017 17:56:29 GMT
I appreciate the peas explaining the no transfer thing. I didnt understand before.
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Post by bc2ca on May 4, 2017 17:59:59 GMT
While I agree what this family did was probably shifty according to United's policies, I think what we are finally seeing is a push back against unfair airline policies.
If an airline refuses to refund cancellations then the seat is should NOT be theirs to sell again- it should still belong to the flier, whether or not they are on the plane. They have already collected the money for that seat. Why should they be allowed to double dip? They do it because we allow it and no one pushes back against such policies. Airlines should only be allowed to sell seats once. That is it. No one else is allowed to sell a single item to multiple people, why is it acceptable for airlines to do so?
If they want to be able to resell the seat, then they need to be willing to refund the original buyer, once it is resold. That is how everything else operates.
The are lots of tickets we buy that have deadlines to receive a refund on deposits or partial or full payments. Even returning an item to the store may only get you a partial refund if they have a restocking fee. I buy cheaper airline tickets knowing I have limited recourse to change the time/date of travel. I don't want my only option to be buying a more expensive ticket so I can have it refundable. SaveSave
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Post by annabella on May 4, 2017 18:02:03 GMT
I don't see it as a transfer though, if *I* buy 3 tickets and my friends can't come, I can't stretch out on their seats? I paid for the seats. I'm not transferring them to a 3rd party, I just want to put my feet up and my purse.
The baby was already a ticketed passenger for that flight, he just moved seats.
I feel the airline is double dipping into the cost of the ticket. I would be livid if they sold my spare tickets to someone else.
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Post by Darcy Collins on May 4, 2017 18:03:01 GMT
This isn't true. The airline absolutely loses money as the no-show has the right to transfer that ticket value to a future flight. But that isn't what happened in this case. And it isn't always convenient to use a transfer for value of the ticket. What if it's a one off vacation which is what happened to a member of my family once. She was due to go the US and she was taken ill and although she was well enough to travel her Dr advised her not to as a precaution as they hadn't fully found out what had caused her to be sick in the first place. So he was concerned that it might bother her again while she was away. Her daughter rang the airline explained what had happened and they offered her a ticket transfer valid for 12 months which to her was useless as she had no intention of going to the US in the future. Fortunately she had travel insurance but she still had to wait 12 months for that transfer time to end before they would confirm that she was a no show. They re sold that ticket immediately at the time of the original date as there was someone sitting next to her son in law ( her assigned seat as they had pre booked seats ). So in her case they received two payments for one seat and it cost her extra as her deductible was taken off the insurance pay out 13 months later. How do you know it was the case here? While it may be true that some people can't use a future ticket, most can and I definitely don't want to move to a system of all travel arrangements being unchangable.
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pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,646
Location: The Grand Canyon
Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
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Post by pudgygroundhog on May 4, 2017 18:09:05 GMT
I actually don't have a problem with overbooking flights - I know it's not a popular opinion right now. But people forget that tickets may not be refundable - but they are typically transferable and depending on flare class with no change fee. Anywhere from 5-15% of passengers are no shows - and despite what people gere are saying here, the airline does NOT get to keep that revenue when you're a no show. I've changed my flights thousands of times - with no change fees as I my fare class allowed changes. For the airline to NOT overbook flights, they will need to make tickets non-refundable and non-changeable. I for one am not a fan of that change. And business travelers - the most likely no show category who make up 60% of airlines revenue, are not going to be a fan of it either. I'm for BETTER policies in dealing with overbooking, but not getting rid of it all together. I have no problem with overbooking either, however, if that is the business model they choose, I think they need to be better prepared for when they are in an oversold situation. For example, they need to be prepared to offer whatever is needed to get volunteers to avoid situations without involuntarily bumping people. I imagine most, if not all, flights have people who will volunteer given the right price. It's the cost of doing business.
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cycworker
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,378
Jun 26, 2014 0:42:38 GMT
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Post by cycworker on May 4, 2017 18:10:11 GMT
Schear explained to KABC that he’d sent his 18-year-old son home on an earlier flight so the 2-year-old could have the seat. That's the mistake right there, IMO. You can't just give your ticket to someone else. Which is offensive, IMO.if I buy something, it's mine. Whether it's a movie ticket or a plane ticket, I should damn well be able to give it to whoever the hell I want. It's MINE. It BELONGS to ME.
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Post by dnkmmw on May 4, 2017 18:17:27 GMT
One thing I thought about, and I could be way off base here, was maybe the airline automatically cancelled the ticket for the teen when the new ticket was purchased. If someone is booked on a flight, then they book another flight that they can't possibly be on, would that raise some questions?
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Post by leftturnonly on May 4, 2017 18:20:32 GMT
One thing I thought about, and I could be way off base here, was maybe the airline automatically cancelled the ticket for the teen when the new ticket was purchased. If someone is booked on a flight, then they book another flight that they can't possibly be on, would that raise some questions? Not their purview. This son had the option to use either ticket for either flight. ETA - Either ticket for the appropriate flight.
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Post by annabella on May 4, 2017 18:22:07 GMT
One thing I thought about, and I could be way off base here, was maybe the airline automatically cancelled the ticket for the teen when the new ticket was purchased. If someone is booked on a flight, then they book another flight that they can't possibly be on, would that raise some questions? I don't think they are that sophisticated? That would create an algorithm to do background research on every ticket purchase just for the hell of it. Although I know that Israel Airlines questions anyone with one way tickets.
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Post by leftturnonly on May 4, 2017 18:25:10 GMT
One thing I thought about, and I could be way off base here, was maybe the airline automatically cancelled the ticket for the teen when the new ticket was purchased. If someone is booked on a flight, then they book another flight that they can't possibly be on, would that raise some questions? I don't think they are that sophisticated? That would create an algorithm to do background research on every ticket purchase just for the hell of it. Although I know that Israel Airlines questions anyone with one way tickets. From everything I've heard, Israel Airlines is both more sophisticated and efficient than the US.
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