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Post by compeateropeator on May 8, 2017 18:02:04 GMT
When I was in college at a major university, there was a strong Greek system. I was not involved in it but had a few friends from high school who were. The whole process was very secretive, and it was especially forbidden for an outsider to know what went on at the parties or certain events. I'm sure that played a part in this situation. What I saw and experienced in college makes me have extremely negative views of the Greek system. I would never support my child joining. The majority of my friends (including myself) were not involved in the Greek system but my roommate my freshman year rushed and then pledged one. I can remember that some of it was secretive but I mostly remember feeling that it was a lot of jumping through hoops to allow a group of people to determine whether you were suitable to belong to their exclusive club. It felt very clichish and I don't think I had enough confidence to open myself up to that type of judgement. I know that many have had amazing experiences and feel it was something that only added to their college experience. I am glad it was/is such a positive for many...but it was not for me.
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MorningPerson
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Post by MorningPerson on May 8, 2017 18:04:19 GMT
This is just an educated guess on my part - The charges that were filed against the 18 people included involuntary manslaughter, aggravated assault, simple assault, recklessly endangering another person, hazing, furnishing alcohol to minors, tampering with evidence, and unlawful acts relative to liquor. I'm quite sure that Kordel Davis was "merely" a fraternity brother in attendance that night. I don't remember reading anything about him being part of purchasing the alcohol, serving the alcohol, he wasn't a pledge officer so was not part of the planning and executing of the events, etc. SaveSaveWhile Kordel Davis doesn't deserve to be charged in the same way as the other 18, I wonder if PA has a standard for negligence? I just noticed I didn't address your question about whether Davis watched the whole thing. I'm quite sure he was there for only a small portion of the night. I don't know whether he was elsewhere in the house, or if he left. I don't think the document addressed that. I just skimmed over the document again, and I only see a part that tells how he urged the brothers to call 911, he was slammed against a wall and was told they were taking care of it, and that he tried to express to the brothers that he had specific knowledge of head injuries/concussion. I don't remember any specifics of him being mentioned again. (Other than when they were discussing previous pledge classes and similar hazing - Davis was a new member of the fraternity as of 2 months previous.) SaveSave
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Post by iamkristinl16 on May 8, 2017 18:05:16 GMT
When I was in college at a major university, there was a strong Greek system. I was not involved in it but had a few friends from high school who were. The whole process was very secretive, and it was especially forbidden for an outsider to know what went on at the parties or certain events. I'm sure that played a part in this situation. What I saw and experienced in college makes me have extremely negative views of the Greek system. I would never support my child joining. The majority of my friends (including myself) were not involved in the Greek system but my roommate my freshman year rushed and then pledged one. I can remember that some of it was secretive but I mostly remember feeling that it was a lot of jumping through hoops to allow a group of people to determine whether you were suitable to belong to their exclusive club. It felt very clichish and I don't think I had enough confidence to open myself up to that type of judgement. I know that many have had amazing experiences and feel it was something that only added to their college experience. I am glad it was/is such a positive for many...but it was not for me. This is how it seemed to me as well. A few times I went to parties with a friend and once people found out I wasn't in a sorority, they would walk away. It was very mean girl/mean boy atmosphere. I can't remember hearing anything positive that the Greeks at my university did. The negativity definitely was more prominent for people on campus. And drinking was very much a part of the Greek system at that time (1993-1997).
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Post by iamkristinl16 on May 8, 2017 18:06:43 GMT
While Kordel Davis doesn't deserve to be charged in the same way as the other 18, I wonder if PA has a standard for negligence? I just noticed I didn't address your question about whether Davis watched the whole thing. I'm quite sure he was there for only a small portion of the night. I don't know whether he was elsewhere in the house, or if he left. I don't think the document addressed that. I just skimmed over the document again, and I only see a part that tells how he urged the brothers to call 911, he was slammed against a wall and was told they were taking care of it, and that he tried to express to the brothers that he had specific knowledge of head injuries/concussion. I don't remember any specifics of him being mentioned again. (Other than when they were discussing previous pledge classes and similar hazing - Davis was a new member of the fraternity as of 2 months previous.) SaveSaveI also heard on the news today that they told him that his word didn't matter because several of the others were pre-Med and kinesiology majors, so they knew more than he did.
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huskergal
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Jun 25, 2014 20:22:13 GMT
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Post by huskergal on May 8, 2017 19:49:40 GMT
I am never sad when I read about a sorority or a fraternity that is put on probation or closed down.
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Post by littlemama on May 8, 2017 20:19:27 GMT
People don't make good decisions when they are shit-faced.
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suzastampin
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Jun 28, 2014 14:32:59 GMT
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Post by suzastampin on May 8, 2017 20:49:31 GMT
This guy was on Good Morning America this morning. After listening to him, I'm not sure why he wasn't charged. While he wanted to call 911, it's hard for me to understand why he didn't. Granted he is young, as were all the others, but if he was really concerned about the guy, why didn't he go against the others and step into another room and make the call? Was he only not charged because he said he wanted to call 911? I think because he at the time he was involved, Tim was still alive and he was asked to leave, left, and wasn't involved in the final decision not to call 911. Thanks for the info. I missed the part where they said he left. I thought he was there the whole time. Such a tradegy.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on May 8, 2017 20:56:38 GMT
One kid wanted to call 911. He was shoved against a wall and told to shut up. That was around 11 pm. I think it has more to do with basic empathy and being able to stand up for what's right. They all seemed more concerned about themselves than this poor young man. This guy was on Good Morning America this morning. After listening to him, I'm not sure why he wasn't charged. While he wanted to call 911, it's hard for me to understand why he didn't. Granted he is young, as were all the others, but if he was really concerned about the guy, why didn't he go against the others and step into another room and make the call? Was he only not charged because he said he wanted to call 911? How horrible for his family. Note how beachgurl didn't respond with the following: There is so much wrong with this story but quite honestly one of the things wrong was that there was even a loud large party featuring under-age drinking in the first place. Not acceptable, and I don't care what race you are. No, it is not an acceptable teen activity that everyone does. So while this shooting and lack of medical care are entirely unacceptable, so is the entire situation. It doesn't justify the shooting, but it also would not have even happened otherwise.
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trollie
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Jul 2, 2014 22:14:02 GMT
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Post by trollie on May 8, 2017 22:32:04 GMT
Heartbreaking.
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Post by epeanymous on May 8, 2017 22:49:52 GMT
I was in college in the 90s and there was a lot of drinking.
I was never in an organization, however, where admission turned on things like drinking huge amounts of alcohol. I agree with other posters that people who are highly intoxicated make bad decisions that they often wouldn't make while sober or mildly intoxicated. That is only a legal excuse in some states, however, and then only for crimes that require a special heightened mental state, like murder (manslaughter, eg, doesn't have such a mental state).
As for the other guy who didn't call 911, you don't generally have a duty to help people unless you have a special relationship with them (parent, guardian) or a contract (nursing homes) or a specific law (eg mandated reporters). I am not completely clear on that guy's role, but if the only allegation is that he didn't call and that he was there, that's usually not enough for charges (if I missed some facts, that might not be true).
Anyhow, I immediately told my 14-year-old about this case and I worry a lot about these kinds of scenarios. I think prosecution here is appropriate, but I am interested in strategies to prevent these situations from happening in the first place.
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kate
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Jun 26, 2014 3:30:05 GMT
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Post by kate on May 8, 2017 23:07:40 GMT
I am terrified for my children who will be in college all too soon.
The adolescent "pack mentality" a/k/a group stupidity was very much in play here, I'm sure, and badly exacerbated by overconsumption of alcohol. Those two things are powerful forces which together can override all kinds of common sense and good upbringing.
That's why I'm afraid for my kids - I'm not sure there's a way to inoculate them against this kind of horrific event. I just pray that they'll stay far from that kind of situation to begin with.
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FurryP
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Jun 26, 2014 19:58:26 GMT
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Post by FurryP on May 9, 2017 0:28:39 GMT
I think it has more to do with basic empathy and being able to stand up for what's right. They all seemed more concerned about themselves than this poor young man. That is a Bingo! for me.
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Post by Spongemom Scrappants on May 9, 2017 2:48:09 GMT
What's hard is I am sure not all the kids are "bad kids", i'm sure they've had the training and speeches and their parents probably tell them what to do, yet no one actually did the right thing. That is what I find disturbing. These were probably otherwise good kids who due to the influence of excessive alcohol and peer pressure made abominably bad and tragic choices. One life lost and too many others ruined for so many wrong reasons.
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Post by AussieMeg on May 9, 2017 3:04:05 GMT
If they would have listened to the first kid and called 911 in the beginning, this young man may still be alive. My heart hurts for his family. I read this story the other day and was horrified by it. I agree with you that if they had called 911 in the first place he would most likely still be alive. I also think that the other kid who wanted to call 911 should have done so, regardless of the consequences he may have faced from the others. I'm sure he feels guilty about that. The whole fraternity / sorority thing is completely foreign to me, we don't have any of that nonsense here. I'm sure there are probably lots of nice stories about fraternities and sororities, but I've only seen negative press about them.
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Post by lesserknownpea on May 9, 2017 3:20:59 GMT
My heart is broken for this boy and his family
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Post by rebelyelle on May 9, 2017 4:25:57 GMT
I was in college in the 90s and there was a lot of drinking. I was never in an organization, however, where admission turned on things like drinking huge amounts of alcohol. I agree with other posters that people who are highly intoxicated make bad decisions that they often wouldn't make while sober or mildly intoxicated. That is only a legal excuse in some states, however, and then only for crimes that require a special heightened mental state, like murder (manslaughter, eg, doesn't have such a mental state). As for the other guy who didn't call 911, you don't generally have a duty to help people unless you have a special relationship with them (parent, guardian) or a contract (nursing homes) or a specific law (eg mandated reporters). I am not completely clear on that guy's role, but if the only allegation is that he didn't call and that he was there, that's usually not enough for charges (if I missed some facts, that might not be true). Anyhow, I immediately told my 14-year-old about this case and I worry a lot about these kinds of scenarios. I think prosecution here is appropriate, but I am interested in strategies to prevent these situations from happening in the first place.Regarding the bolded line...when I was in undergrad, all of the greek houses had house "parents" - some sort of adult (usually a grad student) who was supposed to look out for the undergrads. It's been awhile, so I may be misremembering their role, but I'm wondering if the solution is as simple as that. University administration has GOT to know these types of hazing rituals are happening. A pretty straightforward way to make sure they don't get out of control is to have the house parent monitoring hazing ceremonies and parties. They can easily look the other way on minor infractions, but at least life-threatening situations can be addressed before they become, well...life-threatening. SaveSave
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Post by LavenderLayoutLady on May 9, 2017 10:26:12 GMT
That's heartbreaking. How could people allow that to happen? And that many people?
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Post by epeanymous on May 9, 2017 12:54:46 GMT
I was in college in the 90s and there was a lot of drinking. I was never in an organization, however, where admission turned on things like drinking huge amounts of alcohol. I agree with other posters that people who are highly intoxicated make bad decisions that they often wouldn't make while sober or mildly intoxicated. That is only a legal excuse in some states, however, and then only for crimes that require a special heightened mental state, like murder (manslaughter, eg, doesn't have such a mental state). As for the other guy who didn't call 911, you don't generally have a duty to help people unless you have a special relationship with them (parent, guardian) or a contract (nursing homes) or a specific law (eg mandated reporters). I am not completely clear on that guy's role, but if the only allegation is that he didn't call and that he was there, that's usually not enough for charges (if I missed some facts, that might not be true). Anyhow, I immediately told my 14-year-old about this case and I worry a lot about these kinds of scenarios. I think prosecution here is appropriate, but I am interested in strategies to prevent these situations from happening in the first place.Regarding the bolded line...when I was in undergrad, all of the greek houses had house "parents" - some sort of adult (usually a grad student) who was supposed to look out for the undergrads. It's been awhile, so I may be misremembering their role, but I'm wondering if the solution is as simple as that. University administration has GOT to know these types of hazing rituals are happening. A pretty straightforward way to make sure they don't get out of control is to have the house parent monitoring hazing ceremonies and parties. They can easily look the other way on minor infractions, but at least life-threatening situations can be addressed before they become, well...life-threatening. SaveSaveI think if you were that adult and illegal activity took place, you'd open yourself up to civil liability should anything go wrong (and possibly criminal charges of contributing to the delinquency of a minor or conspiracy, depending on your role) if they looked the other way on minor infractions. If I were a university, I think I could only put a house parent in that position with instructions to report/stop anything illegal and possibly anything in violation of university policy. Do you think if such a person were present and given those instructions, these organizations would stop hazing? Or would they just haze off-campus and out-of-sight? Again, I am not an insider, so this is all anthropological for me, but I attended an academic panel on bullying where one of the presenters gave a pretty vigorous defense of the fraternity hazing process -- a person who was thoughtful and wasn't someone I thought would be writing in support of what I consider to be institutionally-sanctioned abuse -- and it made me wonder how you would root out something this determined to survive.
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Deleted
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Nov 23, 2024 16:34:12 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2017 12:59:54 GMT
Regarding the bolded line...when I was in undergrad, all of the greek houses had house "parents" - some sort of adult (usually a grad student) who was supposed to look out for the undergrads. It's been awhile, so I may be misremembering their role, but I'm wondering if the solution is as simple as that. University administration has GOT to know these types of hazing rituals are happening. A pretty straightforward way to make sure they don't get out of control is to have the house parent monitoring hazing ceremonies and parties. They can easily look the other way on minor infractions, but at least life-threatening situations can be addressed before they become, well...life-threatening. SaveSaveI think if you were that adult and illegal activity took place, you'd open yourself up to civil liability should anything go wrong (and possibly criminal charges of contributing to the delinquency of a minor or conspiracy, depending on your role) if they looked the other way on minor infractions. If I were a university, I think I could only put a house parent in that position with instructions to report/stop anything illegal and possibly anything in violation of university policy. Do you think if such a person were present and given those instructions, these organizations would stop hazing? Or would they just haze off-campus and out-of-sight? Again, I am not an insider, so this is all anthropological for me, but I attended an academic panel on bullying where one of the presenters gave a pretty vigorous defense of the fraternity hazing process -- a person who was thoughtful and wasn't someone I thought would be writing in support of what I consider to be institutionally-sanctioned abuse -- and it made me wonder how you would root out something this determined to survive. I would be interested in hearing more about your last paragraph because I have never understood the 'benefits' of hazing. I was in a sorority and we were not hazed or abused or made to do anything embarrassing or illegal. I can't wrap my head around why it still exists. I do think a house parent in effect becomes a mandatory reporter in cases of what happened at PSU. I'm not sure how many would be willing to fill that position.
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peabay
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Post by peabay on May 9, 2017 13:01:03 GMT
Full disclosure: my dd2 just graduated from PSU this past weekend. It's been absolutely devastating to all of the kids. I can only hope that every parent sending a kid to college this year (and every year in perpetuity) had their children read that report and said to them: "if you see anything like this, call for help." The image of the boys walking over him breaks my heart.
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MorningPerson
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Jul 4, 2014 21:35:44 GMT
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Post by MorningPerson on May 9, 2017 13:27:34 GMT
I think if you were that adult and illegal activity took place, you'd open yourself up to civil liability should anything go wrong (and possibly criminal charges of contributing to the delinquency of a minor or conspiracy, depending on your role) if they looked the other way on minor infractions. If I were a university, I think I could only put a house parent in that position with instructions to report/stop anything illegal and possibly anything in violation of university policy. Do you think if such a person were present and given those instructions, these organizations would stop hazing? Or would they just haze off-campus and out-of-sight? Again, I am not an insider, so this is all anthropological for me, but I attended an academic panel on bullying where one of the presenters gave a pretty vigorous defense of the fraternity hazing process -- a person who was thoughtful and wasn't someone I thought would be writing in support of what I consider to be institutionally-sanctioned abuse -- and it made me wonder how you would root out something this determined to survive. I would be interested in hearing more about your last paragraph because I have never understood the 'benefits' of hazing. I was in a sorority and we were not hazed or abused or made to do anything embarrassing or illegal. I can't wrap my head around why it still exists. I do think a house parent in effect becomes a mandatory reporter in cases of what happened at PSU. I'm not sure how many would be willing to fill that position. Yes, please do elaborate on the speaker's defense of hazing. I can't think of a single positive thing about hazing.
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Post by epeanymous on May 9, 2017 15:17:28 GMT
I think if you were that adult and illegal activity took place, you'd open yourself up to civil liability should anything go wrong (and possibly criminal charges of contributing to the delinquency of a minor or conspiracy, depending on your role) if they looked the other way on minor infractions. If I were a university, I think I could only put a house parent in that position with instructions to report/stop anything illegal and possibly anything in violation of university policy. Do you think if such a person were present and given those instructions, these organizations would stop hazing? Or would they just haze off-campus and out-of-sight? Again, I am not an insider, so this is all anthropological for me, but I attended an academic panel on bullying where one of the presenters gave a pretty vigorous defense of the fraternity hazing process -- a person who was thoughtful and wasn't someone I thought would be writing in support of what I consider to be institutionally-sanctioned abuse -- and it made me wonder how you would root out something this determined to survive. I would be interested in hearing more about your last paragraph because I have never understood the 'benefits' of hazing. I was in a sorority and we were not hazed or abused or made to do anything embarrassing or illegal. I can't wrap my head around why it still exists. I do think a house parent in effect becomes a mandatory reporter in cases of what happened at PSU. I'm not sure how many would be willing to fill that position. While they were unwilling to defend what they thought of as extremes (which I assume this PSU incident would fall under), they really did believe that the level of bonding forged by hazing activities and the code that it fostered between fraternity brothers was beneficial -- that it forges life-long professional networks with coded communications (it is pertinent here that he was talking about historically black fraternities and the kinds of professional obstacles faced by black men in careers where they are wildly underrepresented). I disagree, obviously, but I was surprised to hear a straight-faced defense of it at all.
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Post by Prenticekid on May 9, 2017 15:18:40 GMT
I think most kids are growing these days without any training on how to act in an emergency.. maybe if we put basic first aid/cpr in mandatory health classes in high school.. how to react to natural disasters.. like evacuate if authorities tell you to... and how to deal with basic issues we come across. my kids got an earful from me growing up, all have taken first aid and all were involved in scouts that talked about it a lot. This had nothing to do without knowing how to act in an emergency. First, all they really had to do is call 911. Second, they all seemed to know how to act in trying to cover it up, even making a makeshift backpack of books to keep him from rolling onto his back. It comes down to depraved indifference, getting him that way in the first place, allowing him to fall repeatedly, including twice down the stairs, stepping over him and waiting for 40 minutes to call 911 (see...they did know how to do that) once they found his cold, bloodied body. All the emergency training in the world was not going to help that boy.
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Rhondito
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Jun 25, 2014 19:33:19 GMT
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Post by Rhondito on May 9, 2017 15:25:59 GMT
What devastates me is that his parents were at home thinking their child was safe and sound at college, most likely full of pride that he was getting a great education at Penn State, but in fact he was going through this abuse and then lay dying while no one would lift a finger to help him, for HOURS. I don't know how you can get over that.
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Post by rebelyelle on May 9, 2017 15:36:49 GMT
Regarding the bolded line...when I was in undergrad, all of the greek houses had house "parents" - some sort of adult (usually a grad student) who was supposed to look out for the undergrads. It's been awhile, so I may be misremembering their role, but I'm wondering if the solution is as simple as that. University administration has GOT to know these types of hazing rituals are happening. A pretty straightforward way to make sure they don't get out of control is to have the house parent monitoring hazing ceremonies and parties. They can easily look the other way on minor infractions, but at least life-threatening situations can be addressed before they become, well...life-threatening. SaveSaveI think if you were that adult and illegal activity took place, you'd open yourself up to civil liability should anything go wrong (and possibly criminal charges of contributing to the delinquency of a minor or conspiracy, depending on your role) if they looked the other way on minor infractions. If I were a university, I think I could only put a house parent in that position with instructions to report/stop anything illegal and possibly anything in violation of university policy. Do you think if such a person were present and given those instructions, these organizations would stop hazing? Or would they just haze off-campus and out-of-sight? Again, I am not an insider, so this is all anthropological for me, but I attended an academic panel on bullying where one of the presenters gave a pretty vigorous defense of the fraternity hazing process -- a person who was thoughtful and wasn't someone I thought would be writing in support of what I consider to be institutionally-sanctioned abuse -- and it made me wonder how you would root out something this determined to survive. You're right - I didn't even consider the legal ramifications of looking the other way as a house parent. I'm wondering then what their roles are supposed to be if not to try and monitor the houses on campus for this type of stuff. SaveSave
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Deleted
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Nov 23, 2024 16:34:12 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2017 15:38:01 GMT
I would be interested in hearing more about your last paragraph because I have never understood the 'benefits' of hazing. I was in a sorority and we were not hazed or abused or made to do anything embarrassing or illegal. I can't wrap my head around why it still exists. I do think a house parent in effect becomes a mandatory reporter in cases of what happened at PSU. I'm not sure how many would be willing to fill that position. While they were unwilling to defend what they thought of as extremes (which I assume this PSU incident would fall under), they really did believe that the level of bonding forged by hazing activities and the code that it fostered between fraternity brothers was beneficial -- that it forges life-long professional networks with coded communications (it is pertinent here that he was talking about historically black fraternities and the kinds of professional obstacles faced by black men in careers where they are wildly underrepresented). I disagree, obviously, but I was surprised to hear a straight-faced defense of it at all. Interesting perspective they presented. I think anytime a group of individuals (students, athletes, fraternity / sorority members) forms a bond, it serves as a solid foundation for future networking and friendships. That much I can get on board with. The fact that you have to haze to get there is what is so foreign to me. You can establish any kind of code you want to forge those relationships. I can't see how forcing pledges to drink copious amounts of alcohol, inducing them to do dangerous or illegal stunts or behave generally like an ass achieves that goal. ETA: I'm just talking this out in my own head, epeanymous. I know you disagree with the speakers pov.
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PaperAngel
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Post by PaperAngel on May 9, 2017 16:01:11 GMT
Full disclosure: my dd2 just graduated from PSU this past weekend. It's been absolutely devastating to all of the kids. I can only hope that every parent sending a kid to college this year (and every year in perpetuity) had their children read that report and said to them: "if you see anything like this, call for help." The image of the boys walking over him breaks my heart. Congratulations to your daughter! I wish her much happiness & success in her future endeavors... Every young person should not only be coached to call for help, but also reminded to chose friends wisely & not drink excessively. It's easy to be devastated after a tragedy, but doing the right thing during it seems to have been difficult for an entire house full of students. I hope those young adults face severe consequences for their roles in the death of their brother/friend/peer. My thoughts & prayers are with his family...
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pudgygroundhog
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Post by pudgygroundhog on May 9, 2017 18:55:32 GMT
I would be interested in hearing more about your last paragraph because I have never understood the 'benefits' of hazing. I was in a sorority and we were not hazed or abused or made to do anything embarrassing or illegal. I can't wrap my head around why it still exists. I do think a house parent in effect becomes a mandatory reporter in cases of what happened at PSU. I'm not sure how many would be willing to fill that position. While they were unwilling to defend what they thought of as extremes (which I assume this PSU incident would fall under), they really did believe that the level of bonding forged by hazing activities and the code that it fostered between fraternity brothers was beneficial -- that it forges life-long professional networks with coded communications (it is pertinent here that he was talking about historically black fraternities and the kinds of professional obstacles faced by black men in careers where they are wildly underrepresented). I disagree, obviously, but I was surprised to hear a straight-faced defense of it at all. Maybe they need to try some ropes courses next time.
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