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Post by elaine on Jun 19, 2017 21:01:08 GMT
birukitty , here is a thread for the discussion of the book you recommend. I have a question - given this quote, it appears that the author considers only research that lumps together people who eat animal protein together with those who also eat processed carbs/sugar and reduced vegetables. Can you point me to where in the book he shows that lean animal protein, combined with low consumption of processed carbs/sugar, and high consumption of vegetables is unhealthy? It is is impossible to tease out what is toxic if you look at animal protein in combo with processed carbs and sugar. There is no examining the issue of people who both eat animal protein AND leafy green veggies and whole grains here. Does he cover it elsewhere? So far, I am having an issue with the author assuming and only looking at data that covers people who eat meat and dairy along with a ton of crap. I am willing to guess similar results could be found if he only looked at Oreo and Twinkie eating vegans. Is there any data that looks at an actual low carb diet that includes animal protein?
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Post by elaine on Jun 19, 2017 21:38:56 GMT
It is not surprising that over-eating ice cream, laden with sugar, in addition to fat, is unhealthy and linked to a variety of health issues. I am not understanding the leap to animal protein, which has some saturated fat, but no sugar, is unhealthy because his family - Baskin and Robbins - had health issues that he guesses were due to their consuming of their ice cream.
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Post by elaine on Jun 19, 2017 21:42:07 GMT
No one here is advocating the diet in Group A, with unlimited sugar and processed carbs, and I am now growing somewhat angry that you think this overly-simplistic, insultingly black-and-white, book/argument somehow supports the notion that animal protein, in itself, is bad.
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Post by sawwhet on Jun 19, 2017 21:47:03 GMT
I think that we're on the same page, Elaine.
Eating high quality meats in palm sized servings with 2/3 of a plate of veggie matter/nuts & seeds is not the same as adults who eat supersized McDonald's meals and consuming boatloads of twinkies/oreos. Yet, I keep reading how meat is bad. It's not the meat, it's their overall diet.
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Post by annaintx on Jun 19, 2017 21:48:59 GMT
elaine: Whomever you were conversing with has deleted their posts. 
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Post by peano on Jun 19, 2017 21:53:18 GMT
elaine : Whomever you were conversing with has deleted their posts. No. Elaine and birukitty agreed to read each others' books. birukitty hasn't come on yet to respond. Elaine has started reading birukitty's book so fast I'm impressed--but not so impressed with the passages Elaine has been sharing with us. |
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Post by elaine on Jun 19, 2017 22:44:12 GMT
I think that we're on the same page, Elaine. Eating high quality meats in palm sized servings with 2/3 of a plate of veggie matter/nuts & seeds is not the same as adults who eat supersized McDonald's meals and consuming boatloads of twinkies/oreos. Yet, I keep reading how meat is bad. It's not the meat, it's their overall diet. Yes. When the comparison in one paragraph was about someone eating a double Whopper with cheese, I was dumbstruck! I generally eat a Whopper Jr. if we do fast food. No fries. No shake. And definitely NO Baskin & Robbins Ice Cream. If you don't separate meat, and its impact, from sugar and highly processed carbs, your study means little to anyone who actually pays attention to their diet and does separate animal protein from crap. |
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Post by dazeepetals on Jun 19, 2017 22:46:36 GMT
Not birukitty , and have not read this book. It wouldn't have been my choice for a plant-based diet book to suggest, as there are many great ones. I may try to read it just so I can see where you are coming from in your comments thus far. From what I gather elaine , you are trying to see if there a specific study that looked at a plant-based diet vs a low-carb meat based diet? This is one of my absolute favorite MD's in nutrition. His materials are very sound and his entire job is reviewing ANY nutrition related literature and giving short reviews of them. He recently published a book called "How Not to Die" and I had the pleasure of being able to hear him speak at my hospital. Below you will find his lecture that summarizes his book. It's a long video, but if you watch the first 15-20 minutes you will see the information about cardiovascular disease and diabetes. |
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Post by birukitty on Jun 19, 2017 22:56:16 GMT
Elaine you haven't read the whole book. I don't agree to debate with you on your book vs. mine until you've read the entire book. You're picking out pieces you've seen on Amazon from inside the book. "The Food Revolution" is an long text style book. There is no way you got a copy of it that fast. I don't believe picking up paragraphs and cherry picking pieces out of it to support your argument is at all just and fair. You don't know what the rest of the book says if you don't read the rest of the book.
I wanted this to be a true debate after we'd each read the other's entire book. A good, useful debate so we could learn from each other. You've just proven you aren't willing to do that. Fine. I'm out.
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Post by elaine on Jun 19, 2017 22:57:46 GMT
Not birukitty , and have not read this book. It wouldn't have been my choice for a plant-based diet book to suggest, as there are many great ones. I may try to read it just so I can see where you are coming from in your comments thus far. From what I gather elaine , you are trying to see if there a specific study that looked at a plant-based diet vs a low-carb meat based diet? This is one of my absolute favorite MD's in nutrition. His materials are very sound and his entire job is reviewing ANY nutrition related literature and giving short reviews of them. He recently published a book called "How Not to Die" and I had the pleasure of being able to hear him speak at my hospital. Below you will find his lecture that summarizes his book. It's a long video, but if you watch the first 15-20 minutes you will see the information about cardiovascular disease and diabetes. Actually, I am interested in a low carb diet that basically cuts out processed carbs and sugar, but includes a significant amount of vegetables, in addition to lean meat and dairy. I'm not talking Atkins, but a diet where half your plate is veggies, 1/4 is meat/poultry/fish, 1/4 is whole grain/starch (brown rice, whole wheat pasta, sweet potato). Basically, what Weight Watchers now advocates. There is, IMO, a big difference between a fast food Whopper diet, and a diet that cuts out sugar and highly processed carbs, but includes dairy and animal protein, in addition to a large portion of vegetables. The recommended book, written by someone apparently rebelling against his family (the founders of B&R ice cream), doesn't appear so far - 2 chapters in - to address this type of diet. |
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Post by peano on Jun 19, 2017 23:01:38 GMT
Elaine you haven't read the whole book. I don't agree to debate with you on your book vs. mine until you've read the entire book. You're picking out pieces you've seen on Amazon from inside the book. "The Food Revolution" is an long text style book. There is no way you got a copy of it that fast. I don't believe picking up paragraphs and cherry picking pieces out of it to support your argument is at all just and fair. You don't know what the rest of the book says if you don't read the rest of the book. I wanted this to be a true debate after we'd each read the other's entire book. A good, useful debate so we could learn from each other. You've just proven you aren't willing to do that. Fine. I'm out. I buy ebooks on Amazon in 5 seconds all the time. |
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Jun 19, 2017 23:06:57 GMT
The fact that we need vitamins that are only found in animal protein is enough for me to know that we are meant to eat animal products.
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Post by elaine on Jun 19, 2017 23:07:12 GMT
Elaine you haven't read the whole book. I don't agree to debate with you on your book vs. mine until you've read the entire book. You're picking out pieces you've seen on Amazon from inside the book. "The Food Revolution" is an long text style book. There is no way you got a copy of it that fast. I don't believe picking up paragraphs and cherry picking pieces out of it to support your argument is at all just and fair. You don't know what the rest of the book says if you don't read the rest of the book. I wanted this to be a true debate after we'd each read the other's entire book. A good, useful debate so we could learn from each other. You've just proven you aren't willing to do that. Fine. I'm out. Seriously? I haven't picked anything out from Amazon. I am reading the actual book. What a totally bitchy thing to say! I downloaded it for Kindle this morning. Seriously crossed a line, you did. Download - Instantaneous. What a shitty way to approach this. I'all attach my receipt just to "prove" it to you. I'll hold my breat waiting for your apology - not - LOL. Click on it to enlarge to see date and time I ordered and downloaded it. I am going to continue to question as I read. It is seriously a poor way to learn to wait until you've finished a book to ask the questions you have in chapter 1 and 2. I've taught college since 1989, and give my students the same advice. |
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Post by birukitty on Jun 19, 2017 23:10:16 GMT
Thanks so much Dazeepetals. You are so right. "The Food Revolution" is an older book and while a great overall look at a whole food plant based diet probably not the best one to recommend to debate this issue. I hadn't heard of "How Not To Die" by Dr. Michael Gregor but that one is perfect.
How wonderful that you got to see him speak in person.
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Post by elaine on Jun 19, 2017 23:12:18 GMT
The other receipt didn't have the time stamp. This shows I bought and downloaded it at 7:02 am this morning... still waiting for an apology for accusing me of lying.
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Post by dazeepetals on Jun 19, 2017 23:12:32 GMT
The fact that we need vitamins that are only found in animal protein is enough for me to know that we are meant to eat animal products. The only reason vegetarians/vegans need B12 is because our food is cleaner now than it was 100's of years ago when people ate off the land. Animals get their B12 from eating grass (not cleaned) and with supplemental B12 shots....so essentially if you eat meat you are getting supplemented meat. I chose to get my B12 directly rather than eat an animal that ate grass to get it's B12. There is no other vitamin that can not be consumed on a plant-based diet. |
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Jun 19, 2017 23:13:06 GMT
Kindle edition, $12.99, available immediately... right? eta: I see that elaine answered that question... isn't the human mandible / maxilla and dentition proof that humans evolved eating as omnivores? I always thought so. |
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Post by elaine on Jun 19, 2017 23:15:23 GMT
Kindle edition, %12.99, available immediately... right? Yeah. What I bought this morning, right before responding to her telling her she had a deal on the other thread. of course, I assumed we were going to have an honest interchange. |
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Post by birukitty on Jun 19, 2017 23:15:56 GMT
Elaine you haven't read the whole book. I don't agree to debate with you on your book vs. mine until you've read the entire book. You're picking out pieces you've seen on Amazon from inside the book. "The Food Revolution" is an long text style book. There is no way you got a copy of it that fast. I don't believe picking up paragraphs and cherry picking pieces out of it to support your argument is at all just and fair. You don't know what the rest of the book says if you don't read the rest of the book. I wanted this to be a true debate after we'd each read the other's entire book. A good, useful debate so we could learn from each other. You've just proven you aren't willing to do that. Fine. I'm out. I buy ebooks on Amazon in 5 seconds all the time. I don't read ebooks so I forgot about that option. I get that you don't like what you've read so far, but the book has a long way to go. How about we wait to debate them after we've finished both of them? That's what we agreed to. |
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Post by elaine on Jun 19, 2017 23:17:28 GMT
I buy ebooks on Amazon in 5 seconds all the time. I don't read ebooks so I forgot about that option. I get that you don't like what you've read so far, but the book has a long way to go. How about we wait to debate them after we've finished both of them? That's what we agreed to. Not what I agreed to. There is no point in a textbook to save questions for the end. That is appropriate for a novel, but certainly not for science. |
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Post by dazeepetals on Jun 19, 2017 23:18:04 GMT
The fact that we need vitamins that are only found in animal protein is enough for me to know that we are meant to eat animal products. |
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Post by birukitty on Jun 19, 2017 23:18:14 GMT
I'm profusely sorry I said there is no way you could get a copy that fast. I totally forgot about ebooks because I don't read them. Please accept my apology Elaine.
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Post by elaine on Jun 19, 2017 23:22:18 GMT
I'm profusely sorry I said there is no way you could get a copy that fast. I totally forgot about ebooks because I don't read them. Please accept my apology Elaine. Accepted. Because I do care about my carbon footprint, I don't read paper books anymore. I only buy books when they are available digitally, including cookbooks. I'm guessing Robbins doesn't cover that part of the impact on the planet because it would hurt his profits made by book sales...  |
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Post by birukitty on Jun 19, 2017 23:22:58 GMT
This has turned for what could have been a debate where we could have discussed this in a friendly manner and learned from each other, to what I feel is a hostile one. I feel I am on the defensive. I don't need this. I've lived with hostility in the past. I am not going to participate willingly with it on a message board. I'm bowing out.
I will read "The Obesity Code" because I said I would. I don't go back on my word. But I won't discuss it with you Elaine.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Jun 19, 2017 23:23:09 GMT
The fact that we need vitamins that are only found in animal protein is enough for me to know that we are meant to eat animal products. The only reason vegetarians/vegans need B12 is because our food is cleaner now than it was 100's of years ago when people ate off the land. Animals get their B12 from eating grass (not cleaned) and with supplemental B12 shots....so essentially if you eat meat you are getting supplemented meat. I chose to get my B12 directly rather than eat an animal that ate grass to get it's B12. There is no other vitamin that can not be consumed on a plant-based diet. Disagree. Sounds like something only vegan sources would advocate regarding b12. We also don't process omega 3's from plants the same way that we do animal sources. |
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Post by Darcy Collins on Jun 19, 2017 23:29:41 GMT
The fact that we need vitamins that are only found in animal protein is enough for me to know that we are meant to eat animal products. This is overly simplistic to the point of caricature - which I suppose shouldn't surprise me based on the caricatures chosen. I was a vegetarian for 10+ years. I gave it up when back to back pregnancies and breastfeeding made obtaining sufficient nutrients - especially iron - too difficult. I ate the kale (actually this was way before the kale craze and was actually eating spinach) with citrus to aid in absorption until I was practically popeye. Adding small amounts of animal protein helped immensely - and as I did not suddenly stop eating the whole grains, vegetables and fruits - I didn't suddenly become deficient in 7 other things. |
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Post by elaine on Jun 19, 2017 23:29:56 GMT
This has turned for what could have been a debate where we could have discussed this in a friendly manner and learned from each other, to what I feel is a hostile one. I feel I am on the defensive. I don't need this. I've lived with hostility in the past. I am not going to participate willingly with it on a message board. I'm bowing out. I will read "The Obesity Code" because I said I would. I don't go back on my word. But I won't discuss it with you Elaine. That's fine. I didn't open the discussion by calling you a liar. So, if your opening comments reaped hostility, that is on you. If you don't want to deal with the consequences of your words, again, that is up to you. Not my circus, not my monkeys. This is on you. I'm more than open to discussing the book, since I spent $12.99 on it, if anyone else wants to. DISCLAIMER: I am coming from a perspective of someone that believes that animal protein, in the context of a low sugar/low processed carb diet, that is also high in vegetables, is healthy. I will dispute conclusions about animal protein derived from studies that examine people who eat animal protein, in addition to sugar and processed carbs, without separating those latter components out from their findings. |
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Post by birukitty on Jun 19, 2017 23:45:33 GMT
This has turned for what could have been a debate where we could have discussed this in a friendly manner and learned from each other, to what I feel is a hostile one. I feel I am on the defensive. I don't need this. I've lived with hostility in the past. I am not going to participate willingly with it on a message board. I'm bowing out. I will read "The Obesity Code" because I said I would. I don't go back on my word. But I won't discuss it with you Elaine. That's fine. I didn't open the discussion by calling you a liar. So, if your opening comments reaped hostility, that is on you. If you don't want to deal with the consequences of your words, again, that is up to you. Not my circus, not my monkeys. This is on you. I'm more than open to discussing the book, since I spent $12.99 on it, if anyone else wants to. DISCLAIMER: I am coming from a perspective of someone that believes that animal protein, in the context of a low sugar/low processed carb diet, that is also high in vegetables, is healthy. I will dispute conclusions about animal protein derived from studies that examine people who eat animal protein, in addition to sugar and processed carbs, without separating those latter components out from their findings. I don't believe I called you a liar. I jumped to a conclusion because I completely forgot about ebooks-I don't read them. I wrote you a profuse apology and you accepted it. I meant the apology. I feel you have been very forceful and pushy with your comments. I wanted to wait until we'd both read the books to discuss them. You said something about how you only read fiction books in whole before discussing them but not science books. Geez Louise-what is the difference? A book shouldn't be discussed and certainly not debated until it's been read in it's entirety. Just like a film you can't get the entire meaning of a book until you finish the whole book. I read constantly finishing 1-2 books a week. Perhaps I did push your buttons by suggesting you hadn't bought the book that fast. That was my mistake and again I apologize. If we can take this down a notch and 1. agree to discuss the books after we have both finished them and 2. discuss them in a friendly manner I am all for it. I feel terrible that you spent the money on a book I suggested. We did make a deal. Can you agree to this? |
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Post by dazeepetals on Jun 20, 2017 0:04:13 GMT
The only reason vegetarians/vegans need B12 is because our food is cleaner now than it was 100's of years ago when people ate off the land. Animals get their B12 from eating grass (not cleaned) and with supplemental B12 shots....so essentially if you eat meat you are getting supplemented meat. I chose to get my B12 directly rather than eat an animal that ate grass to get it's B12. There is no other vitamin that can not be consumed on a plant-based diet. Disagree. Sounds like something only vegan sources would advocate regarding b12. We also don't process omega 3's from plants the same way that we do animal sources. So wait, you think my information is just vegan propaganda? Do you have any references to support anything opposing my statements? Another source stating why B12 supplements doesn't make meat eating the "natural" way to eat. As far as Omega 3 from plants you must be talking about ALA (alpha-linolenic acid) which is found in things like chia seeds, flax, walnuts, etc. There are 2 sources of Omega 3, from marine life/algae (DHA/EPA) and that which is converted from ALA from the above sources. Yes, these sources of ALA produce very small quantities of DHA/EPA as it's a very ineffective process. However, algae based DHA/EPA is the same as that which you get from eating fish. Fish get their EPA/DHA from eating algae. So instead of eating Fish, which is full of mercury, vegans can consume algae based DHA/EPA which is the exact same components. In fact, I've been taking algae DHA/EPA my entire pregnancy and post pregnancy, which was recommended by my OB/GYN. So again, we can still get the same vitamins/minerals/omega/etc as people who eat meat, many we get directly from the source rather than eating another animal to get. Putting B12 deficiency in perspective
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Post by dazeepetals on Jun 20, 2017 0:08:53 GMT
This is overly simplistic to the point of caricature - which I suppose shouldn't surprise me based on the caricatures chosen. I was a vegetarian for 10+ years. I gave it up when back to back pregnancies and breastfeeding made obtaining sufficient nutrients - especially iron - too difficult. I ate the kale (actually this was way before the kale craze and was actually eating spinach) with citrus to aid in absorption until I was practically popeye. Adding small amounts of animal protein helped immensely - and as I did not suddenly stop eating the whole grains, vegetables and fruits - I didn't suddenly become deficient in 7 other things. Yes, I realize it's overly simplistic. Just trying to show that plant based eaters aren't always deficient in tons of vitamins/minerals. I'm actually breastfeeding while plant based and so far have had no issues. I've never had problems with iron levels, but last blood work showed great levels. I'm sorry you had problems getting enough iron. I know iron issues isn't always exclusive to vegetarians, but some people may respond better to meat based heme. |
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