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Post by ktdoesntscrap on Sept 25, 2017 23:29:58 GMT
I thought the Claire and Frank thing was sort of true to the book. I read it about a year ago and as I remembered they were in an argument when he died about his activities outside the marriage.
I think you lose a lot of the nuances in the tv show.. but they are true to the story.
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Post by dewryce on Sept 26, 2017 0:41:20 GMT
I don't think the affairs were agreed upon though. In the books, their last argument he was surprised that she knew he had been having the affairs. He thought he had been very discreet but apparently some of the women approached Claire and asked her to "let him go." To me, his treatment of Claire is much more disrespectful and even seems purposefully hurtful in the show, which doesn't hold true to his character in the books. I agree with the poster that mentioned shades of Jack Randall, which wasn't Frank at all.
Hmmm, didn't consider him not showing up until River Run, I was imagining Murtagh with them during the hijinks at sea. It will be interesting to see how they use him further in the season/series.
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Sarah*H
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,983
Jun 25, 2014 20:07:06 GMT
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Post by Sarah*H on Sept 26, 2017 1:28:55 GMT
In the books, Claire and Frank did continue to have a sexual relationship and shared a bed until the night he died. I just reread a scene in Voyager today when Claire sat on their double bed and thought about him. She did know he was cheating in the book but it was not with her consent, she just never made it an issue until the last argument. The dynamic in the show was a bit harder to figure out but I think in this episode, Frank was painted somewhat more sympathetically than he came out in the book. I don't think they made it clear in the show that he deduced early on that he was infertile and Bri was his only chance at ever having a child of his own plus he believed Claire was a negligent parent. All of this to say that it made those scenes in the show somewhat confusing - they rushed through their life together, there was no real development of what the day to day dynamic was and Claire came off looking somewhat selfish for being upset about his choices.
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Post by jackietex on Sept 26, 2017 2:11:59 GMT
I find it interesting to read differing views of the same scenes. In the books, Frank cheated multiple times, despite Diana Gabaldon trying to backtrack on that somewhat, and when women asked Claire to let him go, she said she would if he asked her to do so--he never did. I really didn't like that the show changed it to an open marriage by agreement. I found that distracting (I mean, that's relatively uncommon and strange), and unnecessary. I also noticed that in the show only one woman was mentioned, whereas in the book he was a serial cheater, and with young women. It was conflicting to me, like they wanted the viewer to like, yet dislike, him, rather than seem him as a regular guy with flaws.
eta I read on Facebook that LJG's hair actually changed color by that last scene. I haven't checked, but continuity is not one of Outlander's strong points.
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Post by Zee on Sept 26, 2017 2:19:15 GMT
I really can't care about how many times Frank cheated or not, she couldn't love him the way she should and that was never his fault.
Plus, he loved his daughter and didn't want to lose her.
I thought the episode did a good job in the time allotted. I felt bad for both of them. Claire at the end gave a really touching performance. Now I'm ready to move on.
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Post by scrappysurfer on Sept 26, 2017 2:58:50 GMT
Loved this episode. So mAny emotions!!
So glad that Murtagh is alive! I think he'll take the place of Duncan Innes and help Jocasta run River Run. Which means he won't be in Jamie's day to day life on the Ridge, but still a big part of his life.
I think David Berry did an excellent job as Lord John Grey. Can't wait to see more of him.
Just gotta give a shout out to the costume designers, Claire was rocking the graduation suit and every other outfit she's worn this season.
I hope Tobias wins an Emmy for his portrayal of Frank. What an amazing job he did, he'll be missed!
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Post by scrappysurfer on Sept 26, 2017 3:03:53 GMT
They did these very things in GOTs. Kept characters that were killed before, and killed characters that didn't. It worked well there. It doesn't bother me, and I read the books. True, I was particularly happy that GoT kept Ser Davos alive. I didn't mind this change, but I am surprised as this series has seemed to be more faithful to the books than GoT. At least as far as I can remember and keep things straight, anyway! And the Hound!!! I'm also a devoted book reader, and so far I'm loving this season. Voyager is just the first of the really long, detailed books in the series so I know there's going to have to be some stories merged, changed or just left out. I like what they have done so far.
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Post by Zee on Sept 26, 2017 3:06:11 GMT
True, I was particularly happy that GoT kept Ser Davos alive. I didn't mind this change, but I am surprised as this series has seemed to be more faithful to the books than GoT. At least as far as I can remember and keep things straight, anyway! And the Hound!!! I'm also a devoted book reader, and so far I'm loving this season. Voyager is just the first of the really long, detailed books in the series so I know there's going to have to be some stories merged, changed or just left out. I like what they have done so far. Yes, the Hound too although I really couldn't remember if he officially died in the book or if Arya just left him to die, so many people dying in those books I lost count.
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Post by scrappysurfer on Sept 26, 2017 3:39:57 GMT
@z*G His fate was left uncertain. Love what they've done to redeem his character.
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Post by Basket1lady on Sept 26, 2017 3:45:21 GMT
Hmmm, didn't consider him not showing up until River Run, I was imagining Murtagh with them during the hijinks at sea. It will be interesting to see how they use him further in the season/series. The books talk about the men who were sent to America to pay off their prison term for Colloden. Many of them ended up in the Cape Fear area of North Carolina, I believe. The episode did reference the indentured servitude the men were entering. IIRC, that was for 7 years, then they are set free. So those men from Ardsmuir all most likely went to the same area and were released at about the same time. Since Jocasta was a kinswoman, it makes sense that Murtagh went to her. Of course, this is all speculation!
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Post by Zee on Sept 26, 2017 3:51:10 GMT
@z*G His fate was left uncertain. Love what they've done to redeem his character. Thank you! It's been so many years since I read either of these books, I keep forgetting!
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Post by Basket1lady on Sept 27, 2017 8:03:47 GMT
Here's an excellent recap of the episodes and a nice analysis by ConnieBV from TV Kills Time. Careful--it's a rabbit hole to fall through! TV Kills Time
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sheri
Shy Member
Posts: 30
Mar 2, 2017 0:01:52 GMT
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Post by sheri on Sept 27, 2017 8:09:35 GMT
I don't know about Murtagh replacing Duncan because Murtagh and Jamie were inseparable. It is hard to believe that they would live that far apart.
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Post by Zee on Sept 27, 2017 15:38:01 GMT
I enjoyed reading Diana Gabaldon's thoughts on this, from her fb:
MURTAGH THE UNDEAD, Part 1
So. People keep asking me what I think of Murtagh turning up alive at Ardsmuir Prison, when he actually died on the battlefield at Culloden. Some people are shocked that I approved of this! (Actually, I didn’t have anything at all to say about it.)
Well…as I may have noted once or twice, “The show is the show and the books are the books.” I think the Tallships, Sony and Starz people have done an amazing job in adapting the OUTLANDER story to film, and we couldn’t have been luckier in our professional association. Everyone involved, from show-runners and writers to the remarkably talented cast and crew works like a dog, 12-14 hour days, five or six days a week, for a pretty solid nine to ten months, and does it with dedication, humor and a lot of coffee.
Now, let me explain a bit about my role in the show. First off, I’m the Source, which is good for PR; Sony/Starz would really like me to get up in front of however many million of y’all there are at the moment and say how much I like what they’ve done. Luckily, I can usually do that without lying. I _do_ like most of what they’ve done.
Secondly, though, I’m officially a consultant on the show (it says so in the credits at the end). When I got one round of contracts, during the negotiations leading up to production, I noticed that they were offering me a job as consultant. I asked my agent what, exactly, they might expect me to _do_ as a consultant? (Given that I knew absolutely nothing about television production…)
He replied that it could mean “anything or nothing.” Most productions, he said, would like the original author to keep completely out of things; in that case, I’d take the money and keep out. But, he added, they _might_ want my input on some things, in which case, they’d tell me. Luckily enough, I met Ron and Maril early on, before they’d taken the material to Starz, and we got on very well. They had the same views I do, on the importance of character, how a story should be told, and so on. So, as the show got going, they gradually began showing me things and I gradually began telling them what I thought about those things.
So they went on showing me things: now, they send me the script outlines, the scripts, the revisions of the scripts (there are usually 6-8 revisions of a script before actual shooting), the daily footage (or pixelage) they shoot, and the various iterations of each episode as it comes together (episodes get a Director’s Cut (which, so far as I can tell, is purely for the director’s enjoyment; I’ve never seen a Director’s Cut actually be used), a Network/Studio Cut (meaning it’s for approval by/has been approved by the Network (which is Starz) and the Studio (this is Sony, who actually pay for the production of the show), and sometimes separate Network and Studio versions, finally ending in a Locked Cut, which theoretically means no one can make further changes. This is actually not true—I’ve seen up to three different Locked Cuts on a particularly tricky episode—but by and large, that’s supposed to be the final version).
Anyway, they show me all this—which is terrific fun—and they invite my comments. This is very courteous of them; they don’t _have_ to listen to me at all.
Stop and make a note of that, will you? THEY DON’T HAVE TO LISTEN TO ME. There is absolutely no legal requirement that they pay attention to _anything_ I say, and I have zero power to make them do or not do anything whatever.
So whether Murtagh lives or dies, he does so without the necessity of my approval. The production can do anything they want (aside from things the network or studio want, that is. They _do_ have the power to implement their opinions). Still, the production people do listen to me—I might, after all, actually know something useful, or be able to spot a complication that will emerge in a later episode or season if they do X—and nine times out of ten, if I point out a problem, they’ll do something about it. (They may not do what I suggested, but they’ll do _something_...) The tenth time, they’ll usually explain to me why they can’t do something (logistics and expense being the usual reasons), or why they do want to do something I thought they shouldn’t do. As Ron remarked in one interview, “Diana isn’t shy about saying she doesn’t like something.”
OK, on to Murtagh. Well, Murtagh died at Culloden, as I said. For quite some time, Jamie’s memories of Culloden have been sparse and fragmented—for good reason. However, now and then he gets a memory back. And the closer he gets to a battle, the more stuff his brain starts dredging up.
As we got into the early discussions of Season Three, Ron asked what book-Jamie’s experience of Culloden had been; exactly what _had_ happened? As it happened, I’d written a scene for GO TELL THE BEES THAT I AM GONE in which Jamie recovers his memory of the culminating moments of the battle, and I passed that on to Ron and Maril, for whatever use it might be in their planning. (Basically, they just wanted to know whether Jamie had indeed killed Black Jack Randall, as Jamie has never known that himself—so far.)
So they shot the footage for 301, and I believe I said, after seeing the first cut—“So you’re keeping Murtagh alive, eh?” Because we didn’t see him die on the field, and good story-telling does not (usually) involve important characters dying off-screen.
Frankly, I’d thought they probably _would_ keep him alive. Partly because it would be a popular move with the show-fans, partly because Duncan LaCroix does fabulous things with Murtagh and they enjoy working with him, and—partly because they _could_. Everybody likes to play God now and then. (I get to do it all the time; it’s a great feeling.)
Did I think keeping Murtagh alive was a good idea, in terms of how it might affect the story? I had no idea, because I didn’t know how or when they meant to stick him back into the story—but when I got the 303 script and saw how he was used, I thought that was OK.
Tomorrow I’ll tell you why. (And maybe I’ll show you the scene from BEES, so you can see what really _did_ happen….not decided yet…)
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on Sept 27, 2017 15:47:23 GMT
Interesting thanks for sharing
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Jun 1, 2024 19:16:47 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2017 18:06:05 GMT
Hmmm, didn't consider him not showing up until River Run, I was imagining Murtagh with them during the hijinks at sea. It will be interesting to see how they use him further in the season/series. The books talk about the men who were sent to America to pay off their prison term for Colloden. Many of them ended up in the Cape Fear area of North Carolina, I believe. The episode did reference the indentured servitude the men were entering. IIRC, that was for 7 years, then they are set free. So those men from Ardsmuir all most likely went to the same area and were released at about the same time. Since Jocasta was a kinswoman, it makes sense that Murtagh went to her. Of course, this is all speculation! love this about the book. This is where we live. Wilmington is 5 minutes from my house.
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finaledition
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,896
Jun 26, 2014 0:30:34 GMT
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Post by finaledition on Oct 2, 2017 0:26:28 GMT
Episode 4 Of Lost Things- I don't know how they do it, but each episode just keeps getting better and better. I won't say much, I cheated and watched early, but I will say "I don't hate Bree". Lol. Last season her casting was probably my only criticism, she felt like the weakest casting link, but I liked her so much more this episode. And Lord John Gray, I know people weren't completely on board with his casting, but my goodness he is so amazing. Will discuss more details later.
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Post by jackietex on Oct 2, 2017 1:19:38 GMT
I liked the episode, but I'm over-ready for Jamie and Claire to be together again. All the other stuff is interesting...for a while, but I'm here for the Jamie/Claire relationship. I appreciated that Geneva was not more likable than in the novel. I was sympathetic toward her situation and that helped seeing Jamie to his part. I was really bummed at the end, I would have preferred something a bit more hopeful.
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Post by Zee on Oct 2, 2017 3:23:05 GMT
I liked this episode a lot. They covered a lot of ground but I thought they handled it all really well. Geneva was very well done. The sex scene was a little much but nothing we haven't seen before from this show. Whatever things they change have been for the most part minor enough that I barely notice so I'm not worried about a rosary vs a snake or whatever. On Diana Gabaldon's fb page there was a lot of bitching about that!
My only complaint is that Roger should be bigger overall, plus darker and more handsome. The actor is capable but he doesn't really say "Roger" to me. Of course at first, I didn't think Jamie looked manly enough either to match the Jamie in my head, but he's turned out to be a really good choice I think. Brianna is OK. I don't really like her in the books so maybe I'll like her better on the show.
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QueenoftheSloths
Drama Llama
Member Since January 2004, 2,698 forum posts PeaNut Number: 122614 PeaBoard Title: StuckOnPeas
Posts: 5,955
Jun 26, 2014 0:29:24 GMT
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Post by QueenoftheSloths on Oct 2, 2017 3:52:31 GMT
Really enjoyed this episode. Seeing Jamie with his son was so sweet. And I am a big fan of Lord John Gray as well. I hope to see more of him. Claire seemed to give up on the search for Jamie awfully quickly considering she has pined for him for 20 years. And who was having surgery back in the states?
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Post by dewryce on Oct 2, 2017 22:35:41 GMT
Really enjoyed this episode. Seeing Jamie with his son was so sweet. And I am a big fan of Lord John Gray as well. I hope to see more of him. Claire seemed to give up on the search for Jamie awfully quickly considering she has pined for him for 20 years. And who was having surgery back in the states? I liked Jamie and his son as well. I don't think the actor looked a fig like him, but the scenes were well done and as you said, really sweet. She did! I think it's a matter of the show not doing a good job showing how long the search actually took and the different places they had to go to look. I really enjoyed that part of the book where they explained the resources they used and how one thing led to another. It was quite an extensive process. I really liked the portrayal of Geneva, thought it was well done.
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Post by jackietex on Oct 3, 2017 1:46:37 GMT
I do wish Willie looked like Jamie. I understand they want the best actor for the job, and this isn't like blond LJG or whiskey-colored eyes on Claire, people KNEW who Jamie's biological children were by looking at them--not by how they carried themselves or squinted their eyes (or whatever). It couldn't be that difficult to find an actor for the amount of time he was onscreen and how little he had to speak. I'll use a spoiler box for additional comments. Brianna saw Willie and knew immediately, and Willie, as an adult, saw Jamie and he knew. It was that obvious, so I consider that part of the story and not just descriptive.
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Post by dewryce on Oct 3, 2017 1:58:48 GMT
I agree completely Jackie! And I do wonder why they didn't use contacts for Claire or a wig for Lord John, seems like easy fixes. Though, I love who they chose for LJ and I'd rather have that actor than just any old blonde one. I think Brianna is a bit different, not a whole lot of 6 feet actresses to chose from I'm not in love with her for the role, but at least she doesn't detract for me. And it's funny, because I know how they describe Roger as very good looking and tall, but the actor who portrays him is actually how I've always imagined him. I think because his it matches his personality more.
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oh yvonne
Prolific Pea
Posts: 8,009
Jun 26, 2014 0:45:23 GMT
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Post by oh yvonne on Oct 3, 2017 15:33:03 GMT
That was my favorite episode so far!
I think Brianna is stunningly beautiful, I like her. Boy, Jamie gets around, that was steamy and romantic despite the circumstances.
Love love love this show.
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finaledition
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,896
Jun 26, 2014 0:30:34 GMT
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Post by finaledition on Oct 3, 2017 15:57:50 GMT
That was my favorite episode so far! I think Brianna is stunningly beautiful, I like her. Boy, Jamie gets around, that was steamy and romantic despite the circumstances. Love love love this show. When she was standing by the car smiling, that's when her beauty really stood out to me.
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Post by Katie on Oct 3, 2017 16:02:02 GMT
I loved this episode too. Loved that I went from hating to empathizing and feeling sad about the girl. I have not read the books but I love the man who plays LJG, and I find myself anxious to see him all the time. I like this character a lot. Brie is annoying and that quick kiss she gave Roger was ridiculous. It was a tease, lol!
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oh yvonne
Prolific Pea
Posts: 8,009
Jun 26, 2014 0:45:23 GMT
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Post by oh yvonne on Oct 3, 2017 20:15:17 GMT
That was my favorite episode so far! I think Brianna is stunningly beautiful, I like her. Boy, Jamie gets around, that was steamy and romantic despite the circumstances. Love love love this show. When she was standing by the car smiling, that's when her beauty really stood out to me. I know, right? I mean she is flawless. Like almost too perfect. Her flawless skin, that hair. She looks LOTR Elf like to me. In a good way.
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Post by Zee on Oct 3, 2017 20:29:07 GMT
I think the poor guy didn't get around nearly enough actually, twice in twenty years seems to be rather monastic.
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Post by Zee on Oct 4, 2017 0:34:23 GMT
This board has been acting up for me all day off and on. I edited my above post earlier but it didn't take, apparently. Mainly I was going to comment on something I forgot about. except I forgot about Leary, and I can't remember how to spell her stupid name so I Anglicized it, lol.
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Post by scrappysurfer on Oct 4, 2017 14:07:19 GMT
Really enjoyed this episode. Seeing Jamie with his son was so sweet. And I am a big fan of Lord John Gray as well. I hope to see more of him. Claire seemed to give up on the search for Jamie awfully quickly considering she has pined for him for 20 years. And who was having surgery back in the states? I liked Jamie and his son as well. I don't think the actor looked a fig like him, but the scenes were well done and as you said, really sweet. She did! I think it's a matter of the show not doing a good job showing how long the search actually took and the different places they had to go to look. I really enjoyed that part of the book where they explained the resources they used and how one thing led to another. It was quite an extensive process. I really liked the portrayal of Geneva, thought it was well done. In the books, young Willie only had a hint of resemblance to Jamie but it was clear that he would grow up looking like him. John Grey saw it because he had Jamie memorized lol but the average person would not have seen it. I have mixed feelings about the sex scene but I think it was well done. I read an article that talked about how the show promoted women empowerment and I think that came across well. She set the terms for losing her maidenhead, and in spite of the blackmail they both did enjoy it. Jamie is a man, after all, and he's had sex only one other time in the past 10 years. As for the controversial rape angle from the books, I'm glad they left it out because I felt like the rest of the night probably went pretty similar to what the tv showed us. He learned sexy time from Claire and we all know she loved sex and taught him well lol.
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