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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2017 9:47:01 GMT
If there was no others except white supremacists there then he was saying they were fine. If, in his own words he was waiting until he got the facts before he made that press conference then he would have known who organized it and who was speaking. What other facts could he have possibly needed before making his statement? None! He couldn't categorically say, without knowing exactly who each individual was, that there were fine people there then could he if he had the facts? He either got the facts before he spoke and dismissed them or he wasn't prepared to disavow them. Whichever,both actions are reprehensible for a man in his position. ETA - with that I'm off to bed, it's very late here. Not if he thought there were others there besides white supremacists, he wasn't. He could claim to want to get all the facts, clearly, that doesn't mean he did. So, according to his other words claiming they were wrong and condemning them, he was not claiming white supremacists and Nazis to be fine people. So, first he said he wanted all the facts and that was the reason to not say anything sooner. He finally spoke, clearly after he had all the facts cause you know... he just said so himself that it was the reason he waited before making a statement. But you don't happen to believe that he did have all the facts....why would you not believe that he didn't have those facts after he told everyone that was the reason for the delay? Surely if one gives someone a reason for waiting to do something and then acts when the time comes it's reasonable to believe that they have finally got what they were waiting for....in this case the facts pertaining to that rally. I find it quite strange that you give him the benefit of the doubt about knowing the facts even after he confirmed that the reason he didn't comment was that he was waiting to received those facts. And yet you also then claim that he was correct in saying that there were also some nice people on that side. So to summarize - 1.He received the facts and chose to ignore them or disavow them. 2.He, according to you and you have no confirmation to back up your opinion, didn't receive the facts. so therefore, the only conclusion others can garner from that is, he was lying when he said that he didn't comment until he had received those facts. So which is it Gia?.... #1 he chose to ignore or disavow them, after all he did have the facts. or #2 that he lied about the reasons he didn't make a statement earlier. It's one or the other! He refused to disavow them or he lied...it can't be both. |
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Aug 30, 2017 11:00:47 GMT
He most certainly DID say "us". I also rewound it to make sure that I'd heard correctly. I swear I heard it too. I listened to the press conference and I had to go back and listen to it. It was in the transcripts posted too, because I posted an excerpt of it in here myself, because I was so horrified when I heard it. However, when I go back to multiple sources of the transcript (I got it from CNBC originally) its not there anymore. :/ Its changed to (indistinct) I have a screen shot of when it was in the transcript, but it no longer is - cause I checked both CNBC and ABC. Not sure what to make of that. ABC TRUMP: Well, I don’t know. I can't tell you. I'm sure Senator McCain must know what he's talking about. But when you say the alt-right, define alt-right to me. You define it. Go ahead. Q Well, I'm saying, as Senator -- TRUMP: No, define it for me. Come on, let's go. Define it for me. Q Senator McCain defined them as the same group -- TRUMP: Okay, what about the alt-left that came charging at 'em -- excuse me, what about the alt-left that came charging at the, as you say, the alt-right? Do they have any semblance of guilt? CNBC Trump: Well, I don't know. I can't tell you. I'm sure Senator McCain must know what he's talking about. But when you say the alt-right...uh, define alt-right to me. You define it. Go ahead. [Cross talk. Reporters shout questions.] Trump: No, define it for me. Come on, let's go. Reporter: Senator McCain defined them as the same groups. Trump: OK. What about the alt-left that came charging at- [Indistinct.] Trump: Excuse me, what about the alt-left that came charging at the, as you say, the alt-right. Do they have any semblance of guilt? I wish I knew how to post a SS of the original screen shot I have. So, no wonder it can't be found - now - but it was there, originally. Clearly. Click on like you're loading a photograph and select your screenshot (save it as a picture or PDF) |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Aug 30, 2017 11:03:34 GMT
I would be okay if I wasn't right and that's the problem with a lot of peas. No one truly wants to be introspective and see the other side. The peas who pretend their conservative Republican mind could somehow change if liberals behaved differently just aren't fooling me. Also could someone concisely say exactly what Republican policy they support so strongly and need to see through so badly that causes you to vote Republican at all costs? What specific issue is important to you? I've heard the "We wanted a shake things up" but I honestly don't understand how we find ourselves in this space. Also the smug you'll need me 2020 attitude proves there are no patriots left. This isn't just some I want pink flowers instead of purple kind of vote. A lot of Americans don't feel safe because of this administration. Olan, I hope I didn't come across as smug. My political beliefs are something that I've held for a very long time. They feel very personal to me. I do believe they are evolving. I become more liberal the older I get. Faced with the 2016 election again, I can't say I would have made the same choice again. I don't know. I am concerned about this administration. In 2020 there's no telling how I might vote. I won't be supporting Trump then either. I do want to see good policy discussions because I want to feel confident I am making the right choice. When I spoke of smug liberals I didn't have any particular pea in mind. jeremysgirl. I enjoyed your response to this thread and liked it for no other reason but agreement. |
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Aug 30, 2017 11:14:50 GMT
I'm not sure whether he really thought there were other groups there, or if it just fit his agenda to say what he said. You know, to shift the blame to "others" like he likes to do. If he truly thought there were other people there, he needs to have better info given to him or pay more attention to it. At what point is his incompetence going to be seen as his that? Rather than people making excuses for him? Gia, I do appreciate that you are being civil in this conversation. I hate when the threads just go to name calling between a few people (like it right now with a few others). Usually I just tune out at that point but in this thread there is still decent conversation going on despite the other stuff. ETA that I hope @gia doesn't find my post to be condescending. I wanted to point out that I noticed a difference in this thread, partly because I do appreciate it but I also wanted those who have her blocked to know as well. Thank you for saying so, Kristen I do appreciate that and I didn't think your post was condescending at all. I haven't had any problem having civil discussions with most everyone here. The biggest trouble for me lately happens when I wrongly get involved with a certain someone who follows me around and responds to me with no desire to converse with me, only in order to discredit me. My fault lies in responding to her drivel thinking I have to defend against her personal attacks, but she's just recently publicly outed herself as a flat out liar in order to make that happen. So it's clear now to me and anyone who saw it, nothing she says in relation to me has any credibility and defending against her lies just isn't necessary. So there shouldn't be any more problems in that regard. Thank you again for taking the time to post that about me, I really do appreciate it. Yet you do what you pretend not to be. You're gaslighting again, making your statements that are just not true to gain empathy. Just because you make the statements like you do does not make it true. There isn't anyone "following you around here" either. We all post on this board. You trying to claim "that everyone else sees it" is a bully, ganging up tactic. You attempt to be provocative and coy; purposefully obtuse. Your post is such a "poor me I'm a victim" cry but you are so transparent that it's seen for what it is--you trying to discredit someone else without the benefit of truth. (Plus you lie in your post above--you've been asked repeatedly questions by many in a civil and respectful manner, and YOU choose not to answer them, so don't go lying that people aren't interested in attempting civil conversation with you) You aren't always civil Gia, you're you're always going to be exactly the way you've operated here forever, and you're doing it now with this post. Your true colors ALWAYS show through. |
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Aug 30, 2017 11:18:30 GMT
His exact words.  Yes, that just goes to prove the point I was making. Not quite. Yes that there were more than one group there. But not on your claim that he wasn't talking about nazis/white supremacists-- Gia/mytnice' statement from up thread-- "so he wasn't saying that the supremacists and Nazis were very fine people. That's what I know." Yes, he most certainly did! He STILL said that there were fine people on both sides (meaning the nazi/white supremacists included in the very fine people) of which you stated he did not. |
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imsirius
Prolific Pea
Call it as I see it.
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Post by imsirius on Aug 30, 2017 12:13:44 GMT
He most certainly DID say "us". I also rewound it to make sure that I'd heard correctly. I swear I heard it too. I listened to the press conference and I had to go back and listen to it. It was in the transcripts posted too, because I posted an excerpt of it in here myself, because I was so horrified when I heard it. However, when I go back to multiple sources of the transcript (I got it from CNBC originally) its not there anymore. :/ Its changed to (indistinct) I have a screen shot of when it was in the transcript, but it no longer is - cause I checked both CNBC and ABC. Not sure what to make of that. ABC TRUMP: Well, I don’t know. I can't tell you. I'm sure Senator McCain must know what he's talking about. But when you say the alt-right, define alt-right to me. You define it. Go ahead. Q Well, I'm saying, as Senator -- TRUMP: No, define it for me. Come on, let's go. Define it for me. Q Senator McCain defined them as the same group -- TRUMP: Okay, what about the alt-left that came charging at 'em -- excuse me, what about the alt-left that came charging at the, as you say, the alt-right? Do they have any semblance of guilt? CNBC Trump: Well, I don't know. I can't tell you. I'm sure Senator McCain must know what he's talking about. But when you say the alt-right...uh, define alt-right to me. You define it. Go ahead. [Cross talk. Reporters shout questions.] Trump: No, define it for me. Come on, let's go. Reporter: Senator McCain defined them as the same groups. Trump: OK. What about the alt-left that came charging at- [Indistinct.] Trump: Excuse me, what about the alt-left that came charging at the, as you say, the alt-right. Do they have any semblance of guilt? I wish I knew how to post a SS of the original screen shot I have. So, no wonder it can't be found - now - but it was there, originally. Clearly. That's exactly when he said US. I can't believe they were made to remove it! |
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Post by jenis40 on Aug 30, 2017 16:09:48 GMT
Either Trump thinks that some Nazis and White Supremacists are "very fine people" or he is an idiot who can't interpret actual facts presented to him, neither of which is "presidential" or the sign of a good leader.
If your claim is that you've waited until you received all the facts, and then spew hateful nonsense contrary to said facts, you're (meaning Trump) a racist or not smart enough to lead this nation.
Country over party.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Aug 30, 2017 17:49:34 GMT
Either Trump thinks that some Nazis and White Supremacists are "very fine people" or he is an idiot who can't interpret actual facts presented to him, neither of which is "presidential" or the sign of a good leader. If your claim is that you've waited until you received all the facts, and then spew hateful nonsense contrary to said facts, you're (meaning Trump) a racist or not smart enough to lead this nation. Country over party. Perfectly stated!! ❤️ |
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Gennifer
Drama Llama
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Post by Gennifer on Aug 30, 2017 18:10:52 GMT
I'm as far from a Trump fan as you can be, but I clearly hear "charging at 'em" and not "us." I watched the press conference live, and have watched the video clip multiple times since them.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Aug 30, 2017 18:26:05 GMT
I swear I heard it too. I listened to the press conference and I had to go back and listen to it. It was in the transcripts posted too, because I posted an excerpt of it in here myself, because I was so horrified when I heard it. However, when I go back to multiple sources of the transcript (I got it from CNBC originally) its not there anymore. :/ Its changed to (indistinct) I have a screen shot of when it was in the transcript, but it no longer is - cause I checked both CNBC and ABC. Not sure what to make of that. ABC TRUMP: Well, I don’t know. I can't tell you. I'm sure Senator McCain must know what he's talking about. But when you say the alt-right, define alt-right to me. You define it. Go ahead. Q Well, I'm saying, as Senator -- TRUMP: No, define it for me. Come on, let's go. Define it for me. Q Senator McCain defined them as the same group -- TRUMP: Okay, what about the alt-left that came charging at 'em -- excuse me, what about the alt-left that came charging at the, as you say, the alt-right? Do they have any semblance of guilt? CNBC Trump: Well, I don't know. I can't tell you. I'm sure Senator McCain must know what he's talking about. But when you say the alt-right...uh, define alt-right to me. You define it. Go ahead. [Cross talk. Reporters shout questions.] Trump: No, define it for me. Come on, let's go. Reporter: Senator McCain defined them as the same groups. Trump: OK. What about the alt-left that came charging at- [Indistinct.] Trump: Excuse me, what about the alt-left that came charging at the, as you say, the alt-right. Do they have any semblance of guilt? I wish I knew how to post a SS of the original screen shot I have. So, no wonder it can't be found - now - but it was there, originally. Clearly. That's exactly when he said US. I can't believe they were made to remove it! They could not have been made to remove it - there's no way in hell any news organization would go along with such a thing - particularly for this administration. If someone even SUGGESTED such a thing, it would have been all over the news. I did NOT listen to this live. This reminds me of the erroneous transcript that was posted several months back by NPR. There was actually a discussion about it here although I'm completely blanking on the speech. NPR posted that he said something outrageous to a reporter. I had actually watched the news briefing and knew he hadn't said it - it probably took 30 minutes for the corrected transcript to go online. I'll see if I can find the old thread. |
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ginacivey
Pearl Clutcher
refupea #2 in southeast missouri
Posts: 4,685
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Post by ginacivey on Aug 30, 2017 18:32:57 GMT
this thread
went exactly like i thought it would
there were opportunities to take it on such a different path
and yet - the usual suspects did the same thing they always do
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Post by Darcy Collins on Aug 30, 2017 18:33:19 GMT
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Post by Darcy Collins on Aug 30, 2017 18:34:34 GMT
And I'll point out that this "speech" was a freaking hot mess all on it's own without needing to change his words.
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Post by Drew on Aug 30, 2017 18:56:42 GMT
this thread went exactly like i thought it would there were opportunities to take it on such a different path and yet - the usual suspects did the same thing they always do Including you. I enjoy your mild sanctimony as much as the next guy but sometimes it's a little much. |
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Aug 30, 2017 19:15:37 GMT
And I'll point out that this "speech" was a freaking hot mess all on it's own without needing to change his words. I know, right? I am not sure why we are arguing over the word "us" vs "em". Sure, saying "us" would make it even worse but it is bad even if he didn't say that. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2017 19:48:43 GMT
I'm as far from a Trump fan as you can be, but I clearly hear "charging at 'em" and not "us." I watched the press conference live, and have watched the video clip multiple times since them.  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2017 19:54:03 GMT
And I'll point out that this "speech" was a freaking hot mess all on it's own without needing to change his words. I know, right? I am not sure why we are arguing over the word "us" vs "em". Sure, saying "us" would make it even worse but it is bad even if he didn't say that. To quote what a wise UK Pea once said, "Because standing by allowing outrageous and incorrect statements to go unchallenged can be damaging." I think if it's bad enough to be outraged over, it's bad enough to correct it when it's not true. |
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Aug 30, 2017 20:02:17 GMT
I know, right? I am not sure why we are arguing over the word "us" vs "em". Sure, saying "us" would make it even worse but it is bad even if he didn't say that. To quote what a wise UK Pea once said, "Because standing by allowing outrageous and incorrect statements to go unchallenged can be damaging." I think if it's bad enough to be outraged over, it's bad enough to correct it when it's not true. I think it has been corrected already. My frustration is that people seem to be using that one word to prove that he didn't show support to racists, while ignoring everything else he has said or done. |
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Gennifer
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Post by Gennifer on Aug 30, 2017 20:06:55 GMT
Hey, now. He absolutely was showing support to the wrong people. Doesn't mean he said 'us.'
He's a shitty person and president on his own... no need to modify things to make him seem worse. (Not sure it's even possible.)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2017 22:05:53 GMT
To quote what a wise UK Pea once said, "Because standing by allowing outrageous and incorrect statements to go unchallenged can be damaging." I think if it's bad enough to be outraged over, it's bad enough to correct it when it's not true. I think it has been corrected already. My frustration is that people seem to be using that one word to prove that he didn't show support to racists, while ignoring everything else he has said or done. I don't want you to feel frustrated, so please understand that I'm not using only that one word. I'm looking at his other words that just don't back up the claim that he supports racists. “But not all of those people were neo-Nazis, believe me,” he said. "You had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists,” "We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence..." And many other statements, vidoe clips, etc., old and new that just don't support the claim that he supports racists. I started out on this thread saying "If we could understand why some think he's sympathized with them and some don't think he has sympathized or supported them, the conversation might lead to further understanding between the two "sides"." And I still hold to that thought. |
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Aug 30, 2017 22:13:26 GMT
I think it has been corrected already. My frustration is that people seem to be using that one word to prove that he didn't show support to racists, while ignoring everything else he has said or done. I don't want you to feel frustrated, so please understand that I'm not using only that one word. I'm looking at his other words that just don't back up the claim that he supports racists. “But not all of those people were neo-Nazis, believe me,” he said. "You had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists,” "We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence..." And many other statements, vidoe clips, etc., old and new that just don't support the claim that he supports racists. I started out on this thread saying "If we could understand why some think he's sympathized with them and some don't think he has sympathized or supported them, the conversation might lead to further understanding between the two "sides"." And I still hold to that thought. I wrote it in another post, but I referred back to his attacks of the Brooklyn 5; comments about immigrants, Mexicans, Muslims, during the campaign and before; the tone in his recent speeches (the ones right after Charlottesville as well as when he was in Phoenix last week); associating With and hiring known white supremacists; lying about knowing david Duke; taking days to denounce racist groups while immediately denouncing Muslims when there are terrorist attacks by Muslims; equating people protesting racists with the racists; policies that he has/is trying to implement. I'm distracted by kids now but those are things that come to mind immediately. |
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Aug 30, 2017 22:16:51 GMT
I think it has been corrected already. My frustration is that people seem to be using that one word to prove that he didn't show support to racists, while ignoring everything else he has said or done. I don't want you to feel frustrated, so please understand that I'm not using only that one word. I'm looking at his other words that just don't back up the claim that he supports racists. “But not all of those people were neo-Nazis, believe me,” he said. "You had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists,” "We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence..." And many other statements, vidoe clips, etc., old and new that just don't support the claim that he supports racists. I started out on this thread saying "If we could understand why some think he's sympathized with them and some don't think he has sympathized or supported them, the conversation might lead to further understanding between the two "sides"." And I still hold to that thought. You still are ignoring what several peas have written here--posting Trumps own words-, that prove your claim wrong about his reference to nazi/white supremacists being mighty fine. As usual. |
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Aug 30, 2017 22:20:35 GMT
this thread went exactly like i thought it would there were opportunities to take it on such a different path and yet - the usual suspects did the same thing they always do I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I could not allow her false statements to go unanswered. I didn't attack her either, before or after her lies. Just Calmly and truthfully refuted. |
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ginacivey
Pearl Clutcher
refupea #2 in southeast missouri
Posts: 4,685
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Post by ginacivey on Aug 30, 2017 22:33:31 GMT
this thread went exactly like i thought it would there were opportunities to take it on such a different path and yet - the usual suspects did the same thing they always do I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I could not allow her false statements to go unanswered. I didn't attack her either, before or after her lies. Just Calmly and truthfully refuted. it's not so much disappointment that people get caught up - but for those not in the fray - it's frustrating people give up on the thread and it becomes the same 6 or 7 people going at it neither swaying the other - but there are peas that aren't as firmly embedded on either side and watching y'all go at it - makes, me at least, think - i don't want to join either of them third party looks better and better all the time - even if our vote doesn't matter (in reality) it's not your responsibility to sway me in either direction but i wouldn't think you(the collective you) would want to discourage it either gina - |
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imsirius
Prolific Pea
Call it as I see it.
Posts: 7,661
Location: Floating in the black veil.
Jul 12, 2014 19:59:28 GMT
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Post by imsirius on Aug 30, 2017 23:48:09 GMT
Guess he didn't say EM either. I stand corrected I guess, but I know what DH and I BOTH heard on our news. We watched it TWICE. *shrugs* Maybe it was his yelling and accent we heard different but I don't think DH and I both misheard twice but whatever. I'm not going to argue.
This is what was said: (in the transcript anyway)
Q: Senator McCain defined them as the same group.
Trump: What about the alt left that came charging at, as you say, at the alt right? Do they have any assemblage of guilt? What about the fact that they came charging with clubs in their hands swinging clubs? Do they have any problem? I think they do. That was a horrible, horrible day. Wait a minute. I'm not finished. I'm not finished, fake news. That was a horrible day. I will fell tell you something. I watched that very closely, much more closely than you people watched it. You had a group on one side that was bad. You had a group on the other side that was also very violent. Nobody wants to say that. I'll say it right now. You had a group on the other side that came charging in without a permit and they were very, very violent.
Trump: I am not putting anybody on a moral plane. You had a group on one side and the other and they came at each other with clubs and it was vicious and horrible. It was a horrible thing to watch. There is another side. There was a group on this side, you can call them the left. You have just called them the left, that came violently attacking the other group. You can say what you want. That's the way it is.
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AmeliaBloomer
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Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Aug 31, 2017 1:51:58 GMT
Trump: [snip] "Wait a minute. I'm not finished. I'm not finished, fake news." [snip] Good grief. When he says stuff like that, I'm always so taken aback. I kind of expect his mother to swoop in and send him to his room without his supper. There are just so many deeply dismaying demonstrations of his inner spoiled child that I'm starting to actually THINK of him as a child. That isn't even normal belligerence that would be displayed by an adult. It's something else entirely. His immaturity is staggering. |
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Post by elaine on Aug 31, 2017 2:05:27 GMT
Trump: [snip] "Wait a minute. I'm not finished. I'm not finished, fake news." [snip] Good grief. When he says stuff like that, I'm always so taken aback. I kind of expect his mother to swoop in and send him to his room without his supper. There are just so many deeply dismaying demonstrations of his inner spoiled child that I'm starting to actually THINK of him as a child. That isn't even normal belligerence that would be displayed by an adult. It's something else entirely. His immaturity is staggering. Dementia brings senior citizens back to the beginning - they become more and more childlike, both in memory and temperament. IMO, Trump's immaturity is directly tied to his cognitive decline/dementia. |
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AmeliaBloomer
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Aug 31, 2017 2:36:28 GMT
Good grief. When he says stuff like that, I'm always so taken aback. I kind of expect his mother to swoop in and send him to his room without his supper. There are just so many deeply dismaying demonstrations of his inner spoiled child that I'm starting to actually THINK of him as a child. That isn't even normal belligerence that would be displayed by an adult. It's something else entirely. His immaturity is staggering. Dementia brings senior citizens back to the beginning - they become more and more childlike, both in memory and temperament. IMO, Trump's immaturity is directly tied to his cognitive decline/dementia. Maybe. Maybe not. I had two parents with dementia, one for 15 years. I know too well what you mean, but this looks somehow different. I don't think we can discount the possibility that this is just HIM. That said, I also know too well that one's strongest personality traits are heightened/ exacerbated by dementia, so maybe you're right but the whole situation is worsened because he was already an adult who retained a lot of childish impulses and coping strategies. So any maturity baseline will start out dismayingly low. ~AmeliaBloomer Clearly not a neurologist |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2017 2:39:54 GMT
I don't want you to feel frustrated, so please understand that I'm not using only that one word. I'm looking at his other words that just don't back up the claim that he supports racists. “But not all of those people were neo-Nazis, believe me,” he said. "You had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists,” "We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence..." And many other statements, vidoe clips, etc., old and new that just don't support the claim that he supports racists. I started out on this thread saying "If we could understand why some think he's sympathized with them and some don't think he has sympathized or supported them, the conversation might lead to further understanding between the two "sides"." And I still hold to that thought. I wrote it in another post, but I referred back to his attacks of the Brooklyn 5; comments about immigrants, Mexicans, Muslims, during the campaign and before; the tone in his recent speeches (the ones right after Charlottesville as well as when he was in Phoenix last week); associating With and hiring known white supremacists; lying about knowing david Duke; taking days to denounce racist groups while immediately denouncing Muslims when there are terrorist attacks by Muslims; equating people protesting racists with the racists; policies that he has/is trying to implement. I'm distracted by kids now but those are things that come to mind immediately. Okay, I get where you're coming from, but can you at least now see why so many don't agree that he said he supports racism? |
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Post by melanell on Aug 31, 2017 2:46:00 GMT
I miss Batya.  Save |
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