scrappinmama
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Jun 26, 2014 12:54:09 GMT
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Post by scrappinmama on Sept 10, 2017 15:43:11 GMT
When I was little, I grew up across the street from one of his churches. I could hear him screaming and cussing from the pulpit all the way in my house. My brothers made friends with a boy who attended. I'm sure he ended up dead. I think the phrase is one of many phrases that started out offensive. I don't get upset if I hear someone say it. It's no longer used to make fun of a group of people. I draw the line at the "r" word. That clearly is meant to be an insult to developmentally disabled individuals and that word never comes out of my mouth.
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Post by ~summer~ on Sept 10, 2017 15:44:42 GMT
I know it is a common phrase - I work with people who know people who died at Jonestown. Many children died. I would not use the phrase personally.
Edited - my mom actually went to school with one of the leaders - the one that shot the congressman. And they had similar last names so their pictures are next to each other in the yearbook. I know many phrases have gruesome or non PC origins but this one is still fairly fresh to those it affected.
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AmeliaBloomer
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Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Sept 10, 2017 15:54:10 GMT
There are lots and lots common phrases we use that have very offensive origins. Most people don't even know it. Paddy wagon, peanut gallery, getting "gyped", no can do, basket-case, calling a spade a spade, grandfather clause, boho, and so many more. I would imagine that we all have used one of these terms now and again... Good point, but I would argue that, unlike "grandfathered in," neither "call a spade a spade" nor "peanut gallery" have racist origins. People who don't understand the origins of the terms mistakenly ascribe a sinister meaning to them...which means people who have been using them correctly all along reconsider using them because of other people's misunderstanding. (eta: I made the same argument about the word "ignorant" here recently. Perfectly good word that's been co-opted. Out of ignorance, actually. Heh.) Regarding the OP's question, the phrase always makes me uncomfortable. I don't choose to use it, but understand it's become part of the lexicon. More than that, though, it's never made a lick sense to me metaphorically. Many victims of Jonestown did not drink the flavored drink willingly. And if you drank it, you died. Seems like the event should have spawned completely different idioms. And I'm sure the Kool Aid company is not thrilled. "No Coke! Pepsi!"
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scrappyesq
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Jun 26, 2014 19:29:07 GMT
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Post by scrappyesq on Sept 10, 2017 16:17:10 GMT
It doesn't bother me personally but I don't use it because I know where it comes from.
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leeny
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Jun 27, 2014 1:55:53 GMT
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Post by leeny on Sept 10, 2017 16:43:13 GMT
I don't like the phrase because I know where it came from. I feel the same way about Ground Zero. The first time I ever heard that was in relation to 9/11.
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Post by bc2ca on Sept 10, 2017 16:56:44 GMT
It's an insult for sure, so from that point of view it is offensive. I think it is a hurtful reminder for anyone whose family member was involved in Jonestown but doesn't IMHO fall into the same category as some phrases that are racial/ethnic insults.
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Deleted
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Nov 23, 2024 16:49:44 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2017 16:57:03 GMT
I don't like the phrase because I know where it came from. I feel the same way about Ground Zero. The first time I ever heard that was in relation to 9/11. Ground zero was used a long time before 9/11.
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Deleted
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Nov 23, 2024 16:49:44 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2017 17:03:06 GMT
When my husband and I use that phrase, in our personal, not outside in public, in conversation, it is pretty much offensive. It is generally used to discuss someone who just can't see pass the conceived norm. They just blindly follow what they are told.
I would not use it outside of my house.
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AnotherPea
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Jan 4, 2015 1:47:52 GMT
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Post by AnotherPea on Sept 10, 2017 17:03:46 GMT
I don't like the phrase because I know where it came from. I feel the same way about Ground Zero. The first time I ever heard that was in relation to 9/11. Really? How old were you on 9/11?
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Post by tara on Sept 10, 2017 17:16:18 GMT
I guess that members of cults might be offended. Or someone thinking you are saying that something they are doing is cult-like may be offended. But again, that's only if they know the meaning behind the saying. My husband and I were raised in a cult and yes the phrase did offend me. We woke up and left 4 years ago but my husbands sisters are still in. Now I see the phrase as cautionary because I saw first hand how brainwashed you can get. It's scary.
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Deleted
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Nov 23, 2024 16:49:44 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2017 17:25:58 GMT
I don't like the phrase because I know where it came from. I feel the same way about Ground Zero. The first time I ever heard that was in relation to 9/11. Ground Zero has been use since the 1940s. It describes the map/graph point where a nuclear explosion takes place. Even test bombs with no injuries/deaths have a "ground zero"
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Post by gmcwife1 on Sept 10, 2017 17:56:09 GMT
Just about any phrase is offensive to someone. Whether society deems it offensive depends on who is offended and how loudly they protest.
I'm not generally offended by much, but I do know this saying is meant as an insult so it's not a phrase I use.
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milocat
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Mar 18, 2015 4:10:31 GMT
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Post by milocat on Sept 10, 2017 18:12:48 GMT
I had never heard of Jonestown until today. But I was one when that happened and I'm not American. I have heard reference cult deaths but not with the drinking kool aid.
When I hear "drink the kool aid" I think of it as following along like blind sheep, not making up your own mind or believing the media mainstream hype without looking into things yourself.
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Post by hop2 on Sept 10, 2017 19:10:38 GMT
I guess that members of cults might be offended. Or someone thinking you are saying that something they are doing is cult-like may be offended. But again, that's only if they know the meaning behind the saying. My husband and I were raised in a cult and yes the phrase did offend me. We woke up and left 4 years ago but my husbands sisters are still in. Now I see the phrase as cautionary because I saw first hand how brainwashed you can get. It's scary. see that is how I've mostly heard the phrase someone will say 'don't drink the kool aide' if they think that persons getting into a group/place that might cause them to change their normal actions being influenced by the group, in a cautionary way. And while it's not less offensive, the person saying it in a cautionary way, is saying it because they care as opposed to putting a person down. So it feels different.
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Post by ScrapsontheRocks on Sept 10, 2017 20:22:55 GMT
I think it is a phrase that has become part of the language. Yes. Even over here, through my involvement in scrapbooking, I picked up that it means some kind of unquestioning follower-type behaviour. Having researched the history, I am on the fence about offensiveness. I shall follow the thread to learn more.
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Post by Leone on Sept 10, 2017 21:06:55 GMT
Yes, it is offensive...used today to imply a person hasn't used the ability to think for themselves. Most often it is political.
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Post by roxley on Sept 10, 2017 21:59:05 GMT
I guess it would mean what you mean by offensive. If you tell someone they drank the kool aid, you are insulting them by saying they are kind of dumb to believe what they do. But is that the same as offensive? I use offensive more for saying something that implies a negativity about a section of the population. Be that a gender, race, religion etc. I don't think a group of 90 people falls into that category. It wasn't a wide spread religion, it was one man and his church that he developed. Yes, sad if you knew one of those people, but you are not being personally offensive to group in our current population.
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katybee
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Jun 25, 2014 23:25:39 GMT
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Post by katybee on Sept 10, 2017 22:08:15 GMT
There are lots and lots common phrases we use that have very offensive origins. Most people don't even know it. Paddy wagon, peanut gallery, getting "gyped", no can do, basket-case, calling a spade a spade, grandfather clause, boho, and so many more. I would imagine that we all have used one of these terms now and again... Good point, but I would argue that, unlike "grandfathered in," neither "call a spade a spade" nor "peanut gallery" have racist origins. People who don't understand the origins of the terms mistakenly ascribe a sinister meaning to them...which means people who have been using them correctly all along reconsider using them because of other people's misunderstanding. Some people say the peanut gallery was class-segregated, others say it was racial. Either way, it's an insult. To call a spade a spade may not have started out as a racial slur, but it was certainly co-opted into one. It definitely wasn't a "misunderstanding." Like I said, I don't think people who use these terms today are purposely being malicious--but now that I know they might offend people, I steer away from them. I have plenty of other phrases to use...(some of those are probably offesnsive as well...)
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katybee
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Post by katybee on Sept 10, 2017 22:09:14 GMT
I guess it would mean what you mean by offensive. If you tell someone they drank the kool aid, you are insulting them by saying they are kind of dumb to believe what they do. But is that the same as offensive? I use offensive more for saying something that implies a negativity about a section of the population. Be that a gender, race, religion etc. I don't think a group of 90 people falls into that category. It wasn't a wide spread religion, it was one man and his church that he developed. Yes, sad if you knew one of those people, but you are not being personally offensive to group in our current population. It was 900 people. Not 90. Including lots of children.
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scrapaddie
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Jul 8, 2014 20:17:31 GMT
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Post by scrapaddie on Sept 10, 2017 22:26:27 GMT
I think it is a phrase that has become part of the language. English language is full of phrases that have come from dubious origins. Like die hard. Coming from men who were hung and took a long time to die. A child's game, ring around the Rosie, coming from an event that killed 50 million people. I think people can overthink anything And become offended about over anything they want to.
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Post by Scrapper100 on Sept 10, 2017 22:44:30 GMT
Honestly I never gave the origins much thought and have used it and never been offended if said to me. I'm trying to remember how long ago it was because it seems like most people today wouldn't have a clue to the origins.
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Post by Scrapper100 on Sept 10, 2017 22:58:39 GMT
Good point, but I would argue that, unlike "grandfathered in," neither "call a spade a spade" nor "peanut gallery" have racist origins. People who don't understand the origins of the terms mistakenly ascribe a sinister meaning to them...which means people who have been using them correctly all along reconsider using them because of other people's misunderstanding. Some people say the peanut gallery was class-segregated, others say it was racial. Either way, it's an insult. To call a spade a spade may not have started out as a racial slur, but it was certainly co-opted into one. It definitely wasn't a "misunderstanding." Like I said, I don't think people who use these terms today are purposely being malicious--but now that I know they might offend people, I steer away from them. I have plenty of other phrases to use...(some of those are probably offesnsive as well...) I guess I'm just clueless as I didn't realize these were racist. I think a lot of saying have changed meanings over the years. I know I would never purposely use a saying as a racial slur. I want to know if something is as I sure wouldn't want to say something that is but dang it's hard to keep up sometimes. Some of these have been used for a long time and meanings have changed.
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Post by papersilly on Sept 10, 2017 23:00:12 GMT
I know the history behind it but I'm not offered in the least bit.
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Post by roxley on Sept 10, 2017 23:01:26 GMT
I guess it would mean what you mean by offensive. If you tell someone they drank the kool aid, you are insulting them by saying they are kind of dumb to believe what they do. But is that the same as offensive? I use offensive more for saying something that implies a negativity about a section of the population. Be that a gender, race, religion etc. I don't think a group of 90 people falls into that category. It wasn't a wide spread religion, it was one man and his church that he developed. Yes, sad if you knew one of those people, but you are not being personally offensive to group in our current population. It was 900 people. Not 90. Including lots of children. Sorry, typo. Either way, super horrible and sad. Kids make it even more horrible But not about a section of our population. It is a horrible event in history. Are horrible events "offensive" on their own? Or do they need to involve a negativity towards a group in our population?
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Post by elaine on Sept 10, 2017 23:13:25 GMT
It was 900 people. Not 90. Including lots of children. Sorry, typo. Either way, super horrible and sad. Kids make it even more horrible But not about a section of our population. It is a horrible event in history. Are horrible events "offensive" on their own? Or do they need to involve a negativity towards a group in our population? Where do you live? This is about a section of the United States population. The members of Jim Jones' church were all Americans. Even one of our Congressmen who was murdered. Do you not know anything about Jonestown? If so, maybe read up a little before continuing to discuss.
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AmeliaBloomer
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Sept 10, 2017 23:34:35 GMT
Good point, but I would argue that, unlike "grandfathered in," neither "call a spade a spade" nor "peanut gallery" have racist origins. People who don't understand the origins of the terms mistakenly ascribe a sinister meaning to them...which means people who have been using them correctly all along reconsider using them because of other people's misunderstanding. Some people say the peanut gallery was class-segregated, others say it was racial. Either way, it's an insult. To call a spade a spade may not have started out as a racial slur, but it was certainly co-opted into one. It definitely wasn't a "misunderstanding." Like I said, I don't think people who use these terms today are purposely being malicious--but now that I know they might offend people, I steer away from them. I have plenty of other phrases to use...(some of those are probably offesnsive as well...) If people are misunderstanding each other, then it qualifies as a misunderstanding. None of us can see into somebody's brain to discern what their history is with specific figurative language. I was genuinely flummoxed when somebody jumped all over me a few years ago for using "call a spade a spade." And I'm not sure that person has actually ever heard somebody use that phrase racially. But based on her behavior, and her contempt for me, I'm absotively sure she BELIEVES she has. That's a misunderstanding. It wasn't a "misunderstanding." If you declare unequivocally that "now we're going to hear from the peanut gallery/cheap seats" is an insult, what then do you do with both my father, who actually SAT in the peanut gallery for vaudeville performances (and fondly remembers yelling out approval or disapproval), and my friend, who sits in the cheap "bleacher bum" seats at Chicago Cubs games and yells his head off? Both men would be genuinely perplexed. That doesn't mean they don't ascribe class/cultural/behavioral associations to those seats; it's just that their associations are connected to class pride and good times. So, again, there would be misunderstandings. Now, something like "gyp" or "kow-tow" or "welsh" or "Indian giver?" They were always intended as slur-ie associations. It just took me to adulthood to understand what the words coming out of my mouth actually meant. So, horse of a different color. (No offense to horses of color.) I'll keep saying scotch tape, though. LOL.
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AmeliaBloomer
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Sept 10, 2017 23:45:56 GMT
Now that I've read more, it seems there are two conversations going on about the OP's question. She was asking about the expression as it relates to its origin, the Jonestown Massacre. (Right, OP?) Not whether the meaning of the metaphor is offensive. I think we can agree that implying that somebody is not an independent thinker is probably not intended as a compliment.
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Post by AussieMeg on Sept 10, 2017 23:55:08 GMT
It is used in a derogatory way to imply a person is mindlessly following the crowd. As happened in Jonestown. Many would find being told they were mindlessly following the crowd less than desirable. This is how I see it. I would have thought that people would be offended because they're being accused of being mindless sheep, not because it's possibly disrespectful to the 900 people who died. ETA: But I will take on board that there are people who find it offensive because of the background story.
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cycworker
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Post by cycworker on Sept 11, 2017 0:01:47 GMT
I think it depends on your age. Millennials, at least here in Canada, aren't familiar enough with Jim Jones & Jonestown to make the connection, so they wouldn't be offended in that sense. It is offensive in the sense that it implies a person can't think for themselves. I don't think most of us like to be viewed that way.
I try not to use it. FWIW, I'm old enough to vaguely remember learning about Jones.
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katybee
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Post by katybee on Sept 11, 2017 0:06:22 GMT
I have been accused of "drinking the koolaid" MULTIPLE times right here (mostly on the old board in relation to my support of President Obama). I do find that HIGHLY offensive. God Forbid I have a rational, intelligent thought of my own. In retrospect, the phrase is offensive because of its origins. But at the time, I was offended for much more personal reasons...
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