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Post by roxley on Sept 11, 2017 0:18:43 GMT
Sorry, typo. Either way, super horrible and sad. Kids make it even more horrible But not about a section of our population. It is a horrible event in history. Are horrible events "offensive" on their own? Or do they need to involve a negativity towards a group in our population? Where do you live? This is about a section of the United States population. The members of Jim Jones' church were all Americans. Even one of our Congressmen who was murdered. Do you not know anything about Jonestown? If so, maybe read up a little before continuing to discuss. I do understand it. I'm not even saying this is what I believe. I'm just asking what makes something "offensive". I am very liberal and probably find more sayings offensive than the general population. This one never bothered me, and I have always known the origin. I think because I don't believe it is saying anything unkind about anyone today. It is definitely dark, and about a terrible tragedy, but so are several nursery rhymes as stated above. Am I They were Americans but we aren't saying anything bad about Americans when we say it. It didn't happen to them because they were Americans. Is any reference made as dark humor about a tragic event in history offensive? Maybe the answer is yes. Is anyone being harmed by this quote like they are with racist or sexist ones? I don't know. I have never known anyone to be personally offended by it. I do get offended by things on the behalf of others, but in this case, who are the others? I feel horrible for the people and children. Am I "offended " by this, or do I just feel really bad for those people. Maybe it is offensive to have any dark humor about those who have died. Maybe it is because it is recent history. I'm wondering if we are makeing the word offensive really broad. I think that can be dangerous when we are still trying to get society to not say offensive things about actual people who can be harmed by these sayings. I think it makes people give up on trying to be understanding and inclusive, or "politically correct" as they would put it.
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Post by roxley on Sept 11, 2017 0:22:42 GMT
Ok, so I can see offensive as in it is a mean thing to say to someone. Just like saying you are stupid is offensive. (After reading Katybee's explanation)
I'm still debating if the origin is offensive like the racist ones are.
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Post by elaine on Sept 11, 2017 0:36:57 GMT
Where do you live? This is about a section of the United States population. The members of Jim Jones' church were all Americans. Even one of our Congressmen who was murdered. Do you not know anything about Jonestown? If so, maybe read up a little before continuing to discuss. I do understand it. I'm not even saying this is what I believe. I'm just asking what makes something "offensive". I am very liberal and probably find more sayings offensive than the general population. This one never bothered me, and I have always known the origin. I think because I don't believe it is saying anything unkind about anyone today. It is definitely dark, and about a terrible tragedy, but so are several nursery rhymes as stated above. Am I They were Americans but we aren't saying anything bad about Americans when we say it. It didn't happen to them because they were Americans. Is any reference made as dark humor about a tragic event in history offensive? Maybe the answer is yes. Is anyone being harmed by this quote like they are with racist or sexist ones? I don't know. I have never known anyone to be personally offended by it. I do get offended by things on the behalf of others, but in this case, who are the others? I feel horrible for the people and children. Am I "offended " by this, or do I just feel really bad for those people. Maybe it is offensive to have any dark humor about those who have died. Maybe it is because it is recent history. I'm wondering if we are makeing the word offensive really broad. I think that can be dangerous when we are still trying to get society to not say offensive things about actual people who can be harmed by these sayings. I think it makes people give up on trying to be understanding and inclusive, or "politically correct" as they would put it. I guess then that I don't understand what you are asking at all. Even if there weren't Neo-Nazis in America, calling people Nazis (not referring to any current segment of our population) would be offensive. Saying someone was like Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, or Timothy McVeigh would be offensive even though they are all dead, so aren't a current "segment of our society." So, I will admit to being completely flummoxed by your comments and have no idea what they mean.
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Post by brina on Sept 11, 2017 0:40:40 GMT
I would be interested to know why it has become a phrase that is OK to use. Most people wouldn't make jokes about the Holocaust, and from what I have briefly read, whilst I get that the two incidents are very different but in some ways, these people in Jonestown were in a lightly-similar situation that they were being so brainwashed that they weren't really consenting or giving their own choice. These were innocent people too who fell into a situation that allowed them to be brainwashed and ultimately killed. Victims of the holocaust had no choice- victims of Johnstown had a choice. Apples and oranges
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Post by mollycoddle on Sept 11, 2017 0:42:48 GMT
Where do you live? This is about a section of the United States population. The members of Jim Jones' church were all Americans. Even one of our Congressmen who was murdered. Do you not know anything about Jonestown? If so, maybe read up a little before continuing to discuss. I do understand it. I'm not even saying this is what I believe. I'm just asking what makes something "offensive". I am very liberal and probably find more sayings offensive than the general population. This one never bothered me, and I have always known the origin. I think because I don't believe it is saying anything unkind about anyone today. It is definitely dark, and about a terrible tragedy, but so are several nursery rhymes as stated above. Am I They were Americans but we aren't saying anything bad about Americans when we say it. It didn't happen to them because they were Americans. Is any reference made as dark humor about a tragic event in history offensive? Maybe the answer is yes. Is anyone being harmed by this quote like they are with racist or sexist ones? I don't know. I have never known anyone to be personally offended by it. I do get offended by things on the behalf of others, but in this case, who are the others? I feel horrible for the people and children. Am I "offended " by this, or do I just feel really bad for those people. Maybe it is offensive to have any dark humor about those who have died. Maybe it is because it is recent history. I'm wondering if we are makeing the word offensive really broad. I think that can be dangerous when we are still trying to get society to not say offensive things about actual people who can be harmed by these sayings. I think it makes people give up on trying to be understanding and inclusive, or "politically correct" as they would put it. It is usually MEANT to be offensive, however it's taken. Offensive may be too strong of a word, and right now I'm too tired to think of a better one, lol. And I do think that "offensive" is used an awful lot, and very broadly.
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AmeliaBloomer
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Sept 11, 2017 0:51:50 GMT
Maybe it is because it is recent history. I think that's the root of some people's discomfort. (Not really "offense.")I still have an "Ooh. Too soon!" reaction. I've actually wondered what survivors and family/friends think of the expression. But that's me...and I'm sure it reflects my age and my memory of the event. Lots of people on this thread, and especially internationally, don't have that connection. It's just something they've inferred the meaning of from context. As Elaine says, we haven't adopted idioms based on any other other mass killings...school killings...disasters. There is that expression "going postal," though...
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Post by elaine on Sept 11, 2017 1:06:30 GMT
I would be interested to know why it has become a phrase that is OK to use. Most people wouldn't make jokes about the Holocaust, and from what I have briefly read, whilst I get that the two incidents are very different but in some ways, these people in Jonestown were in a lightly-similar situation that they were being so brainwashed that they weren't really consenting or giving their own choice. These were innocent people too who fell into a situation that allowed them to be brainwashed and ultimately killed. Victims of the holocaust had no choice- victims of Johnstown had a choice. Apples and oranges Umm. No, many did not have a choice. They were forced to drink the Kool-aid (flavor-aid) if they didn't do it voluntarily. The Congressman and his entourage gunned down that started the whole event didn't have a choice either. The children definitely did not have a choice. I think that ignorance of what actually happened at Jonestown is making this thread more and more disturbing for me.
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AmeliaBloomer
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Sept 11, 2017 1:06:59 GMT
Aha! I KNEW I'd once read an editorial about this. Found it. (This is an excerpt.)
(Worth a read. The author lost a friend. And reminds us that Jim Jones recruited a lot of people from the Bay Area, including a lot of poor minority followers, and initially gave them hope that they were building a utopia. By the end, there was a lot of fear in the community.)
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inkedup
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Post by inkedup on Sept 11, 2017 1:07:56 GMT
Victims of the holocaust had no choice- victims of Johnstown had a choice. Apples and oranges Umm. No, many did not have a choice. They were forced to drink the Kool-aid (flavor-aid) if they didn't do it voluntarily. They Congressman and his entourage gunned down that started the whole event didn't have a choice either. The children definitely did not have a choice. I think that ignorance of what actually happened at Jonestown is making this thread more and more disturbing for me. I have never considered whether this phrase is offensive or not. I never use it. However, elaine is correct. Most of the victims of Jonestown were murdered. Forced into drinking the poison. Especially the children.
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Post by elaine on Sept 11, 2017 1:59:39 GMT
Congressman Ryan and his entourage who were brutally murdered by Jim Jones followers when he went down to explore what was going on in Guyana.
"Ryan, who had led an 18-member mission to investigate the cult, had been attacked by a knife wielding man at the sect’s headquarters. He escaped, only to be wounded by pistol fire and then killed by shotgun blasts at Port Kaituma airport while leading his delegation and unhappy American cultists toward airplanes."
Killed with Ryan were NBC television reporter Don Harris, 42; NBC cameraman Robert Brown, 36, both of Los Angeles; San Francisco Examiner photographer Gregory Robinson, 27, and Patricia Park, 18, an American member of the temple."
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Post by elaine on Sept 11, 2017 2:13:04 GMT
This video is 2 hours and 40 minutes in length, but well worth it if you don't actually have a grasp on what happened.
My husband and I were psychology majors in college - we started in 1980 - just 2 years after this happened. Almost every single course I took from 1980 through receiving my doctorate in 1992 had some portion that dealt with this tragedy.
I am beyond saddened by the lack of cultural memory, as evidenced in this thread, that has led to a complete ignorance of what actually transpired at the hands of Jim Jones - here and in South America - and which leaves future generations susceptible to having it happen again.
ETA: I am not nearly as offended by people who use the idiom "drink the kool-aid" to mean blindly following an authority as I am by the people here who justify using it by exhibiting near total ignorance of the tragedy that sparked the idiom to begin with. That, to me, is a greater show of disrespect towards those who were grotesquely murdered in the jungle or on the airstrip in South America.
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katybee
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Post by katybee on Sept 11, 2017 2:17:56 GMT
I would be interested to know why it has become a phrase that is OK to use. Most people wouldn't make jokes about the Holocaust, and from what I have briefly read, whilst I get that the two incidents are very different but in some ways, these people in Jonestown were in a lightly-similar situation that they were being so brainwashed that they weren't really consenting or giving their own choice. These were innocent people too who fell into a situation that allowed them to be brainwashed and ultimately killed. Victims of the holocaust had no choice- victims of Johnstown had a choice. Apples and oranges The 300+ kids did not. The infants, who had the koolaid injected into their mouths with a syringe, did not have a choice.
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on Sept 11, 2017 2:24:43 GMT
I think the term is offensive on two levels.
1. It is an insult. It means the person is not using their brain. So it is never used to mean anything but as an offense.
2. The origin of the term is a horrible tragedy. At what point is it okay to reference something as horrific in casual language?
I have been trying to think of any similar turn of phrase that comes from a tragedy. I think that the number of deaths matters. I remember the incident clearly. I was in high school when it happened. It impacted me in a profound way.
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quiltz
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Post by quiltz on Sept 11, 2017 2:34:39 GMT
I think the term is offensive on two levels. 1. It is an insult. It means the person is not using their brain. So it is never used to mean anything but as an offense. 2. The origin of the term is a horrible tragedy. At what point is it okay to reference something as horrific in casual language? I have been trying to think of any similar turn of phrase that comes from a tragedy. I think that the number of deaths matters. I remember the incident clearly. I was in high school when it happened. It impacted me in a profound way. Going Postal.
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Post by elaine on Sept 11, 2017 2:40:20 GMT
These babies were all in the Jonestown nursery and murdered on November 18, 1978. I'm surprised that Olan hasn't appeared on this thread, as Jim Jones made a point of preying on African Americans to build his flock.
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Post by elaine on Sept 11, 2017 2:42:59 GMT
More innocents murdered, in case people are still "confused."
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Post by elaine on Sept 11, 2017 3:07:47 GMT
So elaine , I'm not sure I can stay awake long enough to make it through that video, but I am watching part. How many people willingly drank, knowing what they were doing, vs. how many were tricked or forced or killed in another way? I also can't remember how many of his followers were there with him. Like by percentage. And how pre-planned was this? Jim Jones was a master social psychologist- he had his congregants take small steps, each one further and further towards the goal of killing themselves. It is what has been termed "the foot in the door technique" in social psychology. The end is horrific, if one hasn't been part of the programming, but it is just one more step in a whole program. They actually had practice runs of "drinking the kool-aid." 304 of the victims were minors, so out of the 909 who died that day, at least 1/3 were forced one way or another. Congressman Ryan and his entourage were all murdered. They flew down because they had heard that some people wanted to actually leave the cult/compound and weren't allowed to. They came down to explore those claims and bring back US constituents who wanted to escape/return to the US.
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Sept 11, 2017 3:20:18 GMT
It just means you fell for a line of malarky. ^^^ that. I know, if I think about it, that it's related to people dying- for believing something cult-like, etc. So if I'm using the phrase- and I have- that's what I mean by it-- falling for something that's untrue, or some sort of 'cult-like' belief in something with no evidence to back it up. A lot of things do have negative connotations, true-- and I'm an animal lover, too, but I will still occasionally use phrases like 'more than one way to skin a cat' or 'two birds with one stone' because they're illustrative phrases, not that I'm talking about actually killing a cat or birds.
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Post by ~summer~ on Sept 11, 2017 3:20:35 GMT
Aha! I KNEW I'd once read an editorial about this. Found it. (This is an excerpt.) (Worth a read. The author lost a friend. And reminds us that Jim Jones recruited a lot of people from the Bay Area, including a lot of poor minority followers, and initially gave them hope that they were building a utopia. By the end, there was a lot of fear in the community.) For many in the Bay Area African American community who lost friends and relatives it is still fresh and painful. Some people lost whole segments of their families.
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Post by Clair on Sept 11, 2017 3:48:44 GMT
Kind of bitchy to insult those who don't quite remember every detail when you studied this for years. I'm sure there are events in our history that you are not as familiar with. Should you be insulted for that?
Also, very rude to post graphic pictures of dead babies just to prove a point.
I've always considered Jonestown a massacre - a horrible event in our history. I'm no expert on the event but I do know of many of the events leading up to it. I really never equated the phrase to Jonestown but it is a phrase I don't use
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Post by elaine on Sept 11, 2017 4:16:34 GMT
Kind of bitchy to insult those who don't quite remember every detail when you studied this for years. I'm sure there are events in our history that you are not as familiar with. Should you be insulted for that? Also, very rude to post graphic pictures of dead babies just to prove a point. I've always considered Jonestown a massacre - a horrible event in our history. I'm no expert on the event but I do know of many of the events leading up to it. I really never equated the phrase to Jonestown but it is a phrase I don't use I also don't casually make false statements about tragic events that I am not familiar with. My point being: if you (general you) don't know about something significant and tragic, maybe you should ask about it rather than make ignorant and disrespectful statements about hundreds of people who died. Just a thought. No apologies whatsoever for the pictures of the actual event. Put on your big girl panties and face brutal harsh reality about the mass murder the phrase refers to. Again, the phrase isn't nearly as offensive as the blatant ignorance and now the anger at being confronted with the reality of Jonestown. I don't care who uses "drink the kool-aid", but am ticked off as hell at people who support using it for false reasons and who disrespect all of those who died.
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Post by Clair on Sept 11, 2017 4:44:32 GMT
I understand what the event was - I just think it's in very poor taste to post graphic pictures to try to prove your self anointed superiority.
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Post by elaine on Sept 11, 2017 4:52:59 GMT
I understand what the event was - I just think it's in very poor taste to post graphic pictures to try to prove your self anointed superiority. Yeah, well, if you actually read the thread, you'd know that some here don't understand what the event was. And some people don't actually read much. But pictures make a point, no? It seems like you are doing a great job of self-anointing yourself queen of posting police, I'm just a participant. You seem to think yourself the authority to deem what is acceptable, rude, or poor taste. No need for me to compete with you - you are the royalty on this thread.
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Post by Clair on Sept 11, 2017 5:06:33 GMT
And you call me the queen...
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Post by miominmio on Sept 11, 2017 5:14:32 GMT
Excellent point and good examples. But help me understand the offensive origin of boho. thanks. It was a racial slur used against those of Bohemian descent. Also lumped in with "Gypsy" and the whole cultural appropriation thing. Listen--I'm guilty. I have a boho-chic Pinterest board. Not trying to be snarky here, but maybe this is an American thing, but I do not know of any racism against people from Bohemia here in Europe (they look just like the rest of us). And calling a spade a spade is a a very old Phrase in my language, far older than any immigration by people with darker skin. Here it has only positive connotations, so again, it might be an American thing that I'm not aware of.
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on Sept 11, 2017 13:47:24 GMT
I think the term is offensive on two levels. 1. It is an insult. It means the person is not using their brain. So it is never used to mean anything but as an offense. 2. The origin of the term is a horrible tragedy. At what point is it okay to reference something as horrific in casual language? I have been trying to think of any similar turn of phrase that comes from a tragedy. I think that the number of deaths matters. I remember the incident clearly. I was in high school when it happened. It impacted me in a profound way. Going Postal. Good Example. A term I would never use, and something that I think is not a joke. Personally I don't make jokes or appreciate dark humor.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Sept 11, 2017 13:57:12 GMT
I think the phrase is offensive for a variety of reasons. It's meant to be insulting/offensive. Could it be anything else? Interesting to see the mention of cultural memory lol
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Country Ham
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Post by Country Ham on Sept 11, 2017 14:03:19 GMT
It's offensive if the person is offended. It implies a person "falls for something" or has been brainwashed. It has a negative implication that a person can't figure something out on their own. Wasn't smart enough to rationalize etc.
I think "jumped on the bandwagon" is a bit less negative way of saying it, if a phrase is needed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2017 17:17:33 GMT
It's offensive if the person is offended. It implies a person "falls for something" or has been brainwashed. It has a negative implication that a person can't figure something out on their own. Wasn't smart enough to rationalize etc. I think "jumped on the bandwagon" is a bit less negative way of saying it, if a phrase is needed. I don't know if it has a different meaning to you than it does over here, but "jump on the bandwagon" means joining in something that is a success but you ( generally) haven't contributed to that success or changing your mind because it's become a success. That isn't the same as following someone blindly without knowledge or being taken in by someone and not know the facts, which I assumed what drinking the kool- aid meant. I've only come across it on here as we don't have kool- aid here. I've only read it in the context that one would think " surely you can't believe/fall for that" type of posts.
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Country Ham
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Post by Country Ham on Sept 11, 2017 17:23:20 GMT
It's offensive if the person is offended. It implies a person "falls for something" or has been brainwashed. It has a negative implication that a person can't figure something out on their own. Wasn't smart enough to rationalize etc. I think "jumped on the bandwagon" is a bit less negative way of saying it, if a phrase is needed. I don't know if it has a different meaning to you than it does over here, but "jump on the bandwagon" means joining in something that is a success but you ( generally) haven't contributed to that success or changing your mind because it's become a success. That isn't the same as following someone blindly without knowledge or being taken in by someone and not know the facts, which I assumed what drinking the kool- aid meant. I've only come across it on here as we don't have kool- aid here. I've only read it in the context that one would think " surely you can't believe/fall for that" type of posts. Exactly which is why "Drank the kool-aid" is offensive. Jump on the bandwagon doesn't need to involve success or lack of work. Some folks who jump in and follow the trends (ie: selling lulu roe bandwagon) actually do a lot of work themselves. One of my daughter's teachers sells which ever MLM happens to be the most popular one in the area at any given time. She's done wraps, eye makeup, thrive, luluroe etc. That's what jumping on the bandwagon means to me. She will move on to the next thing pretty soon.
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