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Post by redhead32 on Sept 30, 2017 18:34:18 GMT
So, can they or can't they be required to stand? From the case cited by used2scrap they cannot be forced to "say" the pledge. That's different than being forced to stand. The SC case did not just say they can't be required to "say" the pledge. It said they cannot be required to salute the flag (this is interpreted to mean in any way including standing) or to "participate" in the pledge. She knows. She's just trying to stir things up. The idea that a 7 year old isn't able to understand the kneeling issue makes me laugh. I guess I know a lot of genius little kids.
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Post by annie on Sept 30, 2017 18:41:34 GMT
I agree, she shouldn't do anything. I'm not even sure why it should cause her stress or that it matters what race anyone is. Have you ever taught elementary school? If you handle something "wrong", you have angry parents pounding on your door. She wants to do the right thing. FYI: The boys were not disruptive. No one made a scene. She didn't stop them. Thanks for all the viewpoints. Interesting to read.
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katybee
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Jun 25, 2014 23:25:39 GMT
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Post by katybee on Sept 30, 2017 18:52:26 GMT
Every morning, we not only say the pledge to the American flag, but to the Texas flag as well. I'm not going to lie... I have a hard time spitting out the words to the Texas pledge, I do it, because I don't even want to know what kind of shit storm would rain down on me in this very conservative part of Texas--I'm sure parents would pull their kids out of my class. But I don't have any particular allegiance to Texas. I live here. That's it. I want to live elsewhere, but my family is here, and that makes me happy. But honestly, I can't wait to get out. I cannot believe I pledge my allegiance every morning. Guess what Governor Abbott--I'M LYING. And although kids are absolutely not required to say it, my kindergarteners do, because they don't know any better. Talk about indoctrination--and I'm part of it! I find it so comical that liberals are accused of indoctrinating school children. But here in Texas, conservatives have woven their right wing agenda through all parts our our educational system--from curriculum (especially history and science) to sex education to bathrooms to pledges to extracurricular activities.
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Olan
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Jul 13, 2014 21:23:27 GMT
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Post by Olan on Sept 30, 2017 20:18:53 GMT
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Post by mrssmith on Sept 30, 2017 20:40:24 GMT
In my kids' school, this would be fine. Sounds like the kids weren't disruptive. However, she might want to be prepared to have a discussion if other kids ask about the kneeling, why they're doing it, etc. so she is not caught off guard. How much discussion do they have around social justice issues? Usually comes up around MLK, Jr. Day...
Our school district is very focused on equity issues right now. My DDs 4th grade teacher did social justice training this summer and is leading a SEED cohort (The National SEED Project is a peer-led professional development program that creates conversational communities to drive personal, organizational, and societal change toward greater equity and diversity.)
I would be amazed if they didn't discuss it. I am proud of our school.
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Post by Merge on Sept 30, 2017 20:44:38 GMT
We received a letter from our superintendent this week reminding us that the law does not allow us to force students to stand for and/or participate in the pledge or national anthem, including before football games, and that the district policy had always been to follow the law on this.
Trump et al should take note that, even in Texas, we don’t do forced displays of patriotism.
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Post by librarylady on Sept 30, 2017 23:33:49 GMT
An elementary school should follow the rulings of the Suprene Court;students cannot be forced to stand for the pledge or the anthem. Schools should not make a scene and let kids choose to quietly sit or kneel. Over the years, I had several Jehovah Witness students who did not stand. Nothing was said, life went on. ETA: My career was in Texas. The 2 years I was in another state, I don't remember any student not standing. (Elementary schools in all cases)
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katybee
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Jun 25, 2014 23:25:39 GMT
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Post by katybee on Oct 1, 2017 0:33:39 GMT
Trump et al should take note that, even in Texas, we don’t do forced displays of patriotism. Yeah....you know who does forced patriotism beautifully? North Korea. You salute when they tell you to salute. You stand when they tell you to stand. You clap when they tell you to clap. You cry when they tell you to cry. It's creepy... I, for one, am grateful I have the option to take a knee.
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Post by busy on Oct 1, 2017 0:42:04 GMT
The schools around me require the students to stand. IMO, a 7 year old has no idea what he's protesting. My son goes to a school that happens to have a lot of children of migrant workers. Those kids understand a lot more about “the wall” and immigration and all kinds of other “adult” issues than most of us do. There’s no reason why a 7 year old can’t understand police bias and violence, especially if they may have some family experience with it.
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tracylynn
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Jun 26, 2014 22:49:09 GMT
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Post by tracylynn on Oct 1, 2017 1:50:26 GMT
The schools around me require the students to stand. IMO, a 7 year old has no idea what he's protesting.That's a pretty bold statement. You have no idea what that kid does or doesn't understand.
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likescarrots
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Aug 16, 2014 17:52:53 GMT
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Post by likescarrots on Oct 1, 2017 2:06:35 GMT
I don't know why your friend would have even gone to the principal about this. It would cause a lot less drama for her to have not addressed it any way and gone about the rest of her class.
When I was in high school I stood for the pledge but did not say it or put my hand over my heart. I was berated by my teacher for it.
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eleezybeth
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Jun 28, 2014 20:42:01 GMT
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Post by eleezybeth on Oct 1, 2017 2:15:06 GMT
Every morning, we not only say the pledge to the American flag, but to the Texas flag as well. I'm not going to lie... I have a hard time spitting out the words to the Texas pledge, I do it, because I don't even want to know what kind of shit storm would rain down on me in this very conservative part of Texas--I'm sure parents would pull their kids out of my class. But I don't have any particular allegiance to Texas. I live here. That's it. I want to live elsewhere, but my family is here, and that makes me happy. But honestly, I can't wait to get out. I cannot believe I pledge my allegiance every morning. Guess what Governor Abbott--I'M LYING. And although kids are absolutely not required to say it, my kindergarteners do, because they don't know any better. Talk about indoctrination--and I'm part of it! I find it so comical that liberals are accused of indoctrinating school children. But here in Texas, conservatives have woven their right wing agenda through all parts our our educational system--from curriculum (especially history and science) to sex education to bathrooms to pledges to extracurricular activities. Thank you so much for posting about this. We are brand spanking new to Texas and when my girls told me they HAD to learn the Texas pledge and that they HAD to learn it immediately or they would be in trouble I was shocked. I looked the pledge up and yeah... what you said. I wondered if I could tell my girls they didn't need to do it but they are pleasers. Hate to be called into school for being "that mom."
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Post by judy on Oct 1, 2017 4:25:41 GMT
This thread is interesting to me as I experienced a similar event this past Monday, a day after the NFL team stayed in the locker room.
I run my school's morning announcements which air live via Skype to my building's k-5 classrooms. Each day, about 15-25 students come to the library to participate. Per my building administrator's request, our announcements consist of a morning welcome, the pledge, an inspirational statement and any additional comments about events particular to that day. Students stand for these announcements while I run the computer and camera.
On Monday, a 5th grader took a knee during the pledge portion. He smiled and giggled throughout it, as did a few of his peers. The students in front of him, who couldn't see him, did not notice.
I let it go through the Skype session. However, I did speak with him and his classmates after we were done about it. I told him that while I understood what he was doing by taking a knee, it was disruptive to our live Skype session because of the giggling and the noise. I asked him to not participate in Skype sessions if he is going to continue to disrupt them.
Had he been quiet and not attracted so much attention while taking a knee, I would not have said anything.
I did tell my administration what happened just in case a parent questioned his or my actions.
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Dalai Mama
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Jun 26, 2014 0:31:31 GMT
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Post by Dalai Mama on Oct 1, 2017 11:22:01 GMT
A7-year-old is at least as capable of knowing what they are protesting as they are of knowing what they are pledging allegiance to.
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Post by peasapie on Oct 1, 2017 11:30:21 GMT
In high school I stood but didn’t salute, to protest Vietnam.
Since everyone is talking about this, no doubt parents have discussed with their kids what is going on. I would do nothing.
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Post by monklady123 on Oct 1, 2017 11:49:18 GMT
I do substitute teaching in elementary school and we begin every day with a "moment of silence" and then the Pledge of Allegiance. I've never insisted that anyone stand but I've never had to since they all do. However, I have to confess that I've never really thought about it all, except when some conservative will say (online in the comments usually) "schools don't do the pledge anymore!" Then I'll chime in to say that my very liberal school district says it every day at least in elementary school. --- But, since trump I have looked at it differently. And since Black Lives Matter which has opened my eyes to a lot. The other day I was subbing in an ESL 1st grade which included two from Ethiopia, six from Central America, two from Pakistan, one from Bangladesh, two from Mongolia, one from some sub-Saharan African country which I didn't get, and one from Tunisia. It made me sad as I said the words "with liberty and justice for all"....such a lovely ideal but so far from the truth. I wondered what the futures is for these children to be growing up here in this time.
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Peamac
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Post by Peamac on Oct 1, 2017 13:18:10 GMT
I didn't think public schools said "under God " any more. When I did my student teaching nearly 30 years ago they didn't.
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Post by myshelly on Oct 1, 2017 13:28:11 GMT
I didn't think public schools said "under God " any more. When I did my student teaching nearly 30 years ago they didn't. They definitely do.
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Post by compeateropeator on Oct 1, 2017 14:14:13 GMT
The schools around me require the students to stand. IMO, a 7 year old has no idea what he's protesting.I have just started reading this thread but wanted to comment on this thought. While all 7 year olds may not understand what they are protesting or all the nuances around it, I do believe that you are not giving them enough credit. Many know all too well what they are protesting, or at least the general ideas that they are protesting. Many kids are very in tune with issues and what is happening in the world. Must be all that liberal indoctrination in the public schools that we keep hearing about.
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schizo319
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Jun 28, 2014 0:26:58 GMT
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Post by schizo319 on Oct 1, 2017 14:40:18 GMT
In an ideal world this would be a great time to start a discussion about living in a country where we can disagree and still remain respectful of others. I don't think elementary school is too early to start an age appropriate conversation about accepting one another's beliefs and rights (as they've been granted by the courts) - even when they're different from our own. Frankly, some adults could use a refresher on that concept.
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Post by hop2 on Oct 1, 2017 16:42:22 GMT
An elementary school should follow the rulings of the Suprene Court;students cannot be forced to stand for the pledge or the anthem. Schools should not make a scene and let kids choose to quietly sit or kneel. Over the years, I had several Jehovah Witness students who did not stand. Nothing was said, life went on. ETA: My career was in Texas. The 2 years I was in another state, I don't remember any student not standing. (Elementary schools in all cases) I grew up near one of their ‘campuses’ ( for lack of a better word ) and even way back then in ‘the dark ages’ they/we were not ‘required’ to stand or participate. We had several Jehovah witness students in every grade level. They only stood for the pledge when they were rebeling ( as many teenagers do) so even back then the pledge was used as a protest. And since parents weren’t present every morning for the pledge, if they stood it would have been in a public setting. ( but no one would realize except their parents ). Stuff really does come full circle.
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katybee
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Jun 25, 2014 23:25:39 GMT
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Post by katybee on Oct 1, 2017 17:28:15 GMT
I didn't think public schools said "under God " any more. When I did my student teaching nearly 30 years ago they didn't. Oh yeah they do. As A matter of fact, Texas added the words "under God" to the Texas pledge only about 10 years ago. I'm pretty sure the only people to actually say the Texas pledge our school children and maybe the legislature…
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Post by tara on Oct 1, 2017 19:50:26 GMT
When I was in school I refused to stand for the pledge. I object to the words "under God". I do not believe they should be in the pledge and I do not believe they should be said in school. It wasn't disruptive or an issue until my sophomore year of high school until a particularly conservative teacher thought she could make me stand. She was wrong. So my answer is - right now it's not an issue. It won't be an issue unless the school tries to make it an issue. I have been sitting out the pledge since second grade, because I had a classmate who was a Jehovah's Witness and sat it out for religious reasons, and I didn't want them to feel alone. No one ever made an issue of it, and that was in the 70s and 80s. That is so nice. I was raised in that religion and was in elementary school in the seventies. Only time it was a problem was in second grade and had a sub. During the pledge she told me to stand. I remember telling her I couldn't because I already gave my allegiance to God. She stood over me and started screaming at me. I was a very shy and timid little girl and I broke and stood. I remember crying all day because I thought I let my God. You better believe that school got a talking to the next day from my mom!
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used2scrap
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Jan 29, 2016 3:02:55 GMT
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Post by used2scrap on Oct 1, 2017 21:36:57 GMT
I have been sitting out the pledge since second grade, because I had a classmate who was a Jehovah's Witness and sat it out for religious reasons, and I didn't want them to feel alone. No one ever made an issue of it, and that was in the 70s and 80s. That is so nice. I was raised in that religion and was in elementary school in the seventies. Only time it was a problem was in second grade and had a sub. During the pledge she told me to stand. I remember telling her I couldn't because I already gave my allegiance to God. She stood over me and started screaming at me. I was a very shy and timid little girl and I broke and stood. I remember crying all day because I thought I let my God. You better believe that school got a talking to the next day from my mom! This breaks my heart!
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Post by anonrefugee on Oct 1, 2017 21:42:11 GMT
When I was in school I refused to stand for the pledge. I object to the words "under God". I do not believe they should be in the pledge and I do not believe they should be said in school. It wasn't disruptive or an issue until my sophomore year of high school until a particularly conservative teacher thought she could make me stand. She was wrong. So my answer is - right now it's not an issue. It won't be an issue unless the school tries to make it an issue. I have been sitting out the pledge since second grade, because I had a classmate who was a Jehovah's Witness and sat it out for religious reasons, and I didn't want them to feel alone. No one ever made an issue of it, and that was in the 70s and 80s. Sweet! Treating others the way you'd want to be treated. I went to elementary in 60s and 70s with kids who didn't participate for religious reasons. By the time we were in middle school there was always a kid or two doing something different, in protest, as well. And it was fine, no one ridiculed them, or publicized it. It was their right and we kept moving forward.
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Post by maryland on Oct 1, 2017 22:36:25 GMT
I love that story! HTTR! (Yes, I am from DC and a big fan!)
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Post by wholarmor on Oct 1, 2017 23:05:44 GMT
The schools around me require the students to stand. IMO, a 7 year old has no idea what he's protesting.I have just started reading this thread but wanted to comment on this thought. While all 7 year olds may not understand what they are protesting or all the nuances around it, I do believe that you are not giving them enough credit. Many know all too well what they are protesting, or at least the general ideas that they are protesting. Many kids are very in tune with issues and what is happening in the world. Must be all that liberal indoctrination in the public schools that we keep hearing about. Also, I wonder- if a seven year old doesn't know what they're protesting, do they know what they are saying when they say the pledge? IMO, we are training kids to say things from rote, and they just do this like little robots(except we make sure to tell them what it means in Cub Scouts). Still, which is worse? And I agree that if it gets brought up by other students, maybe it's a good lesson to teach that we can respect each other in America- those who have the freedom to stand, and those who have the freedom to kneel.
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