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Post by librarylady on Oct 17, 2017 16:45:45 GMT
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peabay
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Post by peabay on Oct 17, 2017 16:47:12 GMT
She's getting a ton of criticism for that.
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peabay
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Post by peabay on Oct 17, 2017 16:48:31 GMT
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Post by busy on Oct 17, 2017 16:52:24 GMT
Yeah, I'm not really on board with her perspective. And if anyone thinks dressing modestly somehow protects one against sexual harassment or assault, they are sorely misguided. Notice how many of the outfits here are "modest," yet they are what women and girls were wearing when they were victims of sexual assault.
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Post by librarylady on Oct 17, 2017 16:56:45 GMT
Well, I can see how one would take it like that. I know she has very conservative religious views and I read her article sort of through those eyes.
Somehow I didn't see it as blaming the victim, but saying she looked out of place,so she was left alone...and that she didn't feel the need to change her ways to fit in.
We all bring our history to anything we read, or any conversation, and sometimes that creates a situation where the message received is not the message the person thought they were sending.
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Post by myshelly on Oct 17, 2017 17:00:03 GMT
I wouldn't call it thoughtful. I would call it unfortunate.
OP, you are the first (and only) person I have seen have a positive reaction to it.
She's getting trashed for it.
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Post by busy on Oct 17, 2017 17:04:29 GMT
Somehow I didn't see it as blaming the victim, but saying she looked out of place,so she was left alone...and that she didn't feel the need to change her ways to fit in. But even that is greatly troubling to me because it equates sexual harassment and assault with *sex* and desirability. As if only beautiful girls are at risk. And that's simply not true - and of course is not somehow more acceptable, as if they could avoid being victimized if they looked different. Sexual harassment and assault are all about power, not sexual desire. She may never have been a victim, but that was frankly luck. She seems to think it's because of her good decisions, which suggests that those who *are* victimized are making bad decisions. I just think there are a lot of problematic undercurrents to this article that I am sure she did not realize when she wrote it, but give an insight into her view of the issue.
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perumbula
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Post by perumbula on Oct 17, 2017 17:04:49 GMT
I understand both points of view. The only true protection from sexual harassment and assault is to change the culture. I said "Me too" on Facebook and I meant it. It has happened to me. However, I'm not pretty and I don't fit the societal norms for attractiveness. It has protected me to a certain extent. I never get catcalls. I can't remember a guy ever looking at my chest instead of my eyes. I have friends who are much more traditionally attractive than I am and they have dealt with much more than I have. Not being pretty is a small protection.
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Post by librarylady on Oct 17, 2017 17:07:02 GMT
Somehow I didn't see it as blaming the victim, but saying she looked out of place,so she was left alone...and that she didn't feel the need to change her ways to fit in. But even that is greatly troubling to me because it equates sexual harassment and assault with *sex* and desirability. As if only beautiful girls are at risk. And that's simply not true - and of course is not somehow more acceptable, as if they could avoid being victimized if they looked different. Sexual harassment and assault are all about power, not sexual desire. She may never have been a victim, but that was frankly luck. She seems to think it's because of her good decisions, which suggests that those who *are* victimized are making bad decisions. I just think there are a lot of problematic undercurrents to this article that I am sure she did not realize when she wrote it, but give an insight into her view of the issue. I agree with you, busy
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perumbula
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Post by perumbula on Oct 17, 2017 17:10:34 GMT
Somehow I didn't see it as blaming the victim, but saying she looked out of place,so she was left alone...and that she didn't feel the need to change her ways to fit in. But even that is greatly troubling to me because it equates sexual harassment and assault with *sex* and desirability. As if only beautiful girls are at risk. And that's simply not true - and of course is not somehow more acceptable, as if they could avoid being victimized if they looked different. Sexual harassment and assault are all about power, not sexual desire. She may never have been a victim, but that was frankly luck. She seems to think it's because of her good decisions, which suggests that those who *are* victimized are making bad decisions. I just think there are a lot of problematic undercurrents to this article that I am sure she did not realize when she wrote it, but give an insight into her view of the issue. You are right, it is about power. But it's a mistake to take the *sex* out of the equation completely. There is still an undercurrent of expectation on women in our society. An expectation of wish fulfillment and rights from men that is most often tied to how desirable the woman is. The more desirable she is the more expectations are placed on her. If you don't believe me, go read a message board full of men talk about actresses. Those expectations partly fuel the rape culture. All women deal with it, but yes, pretty girls deal with harassment more than those of us who are not (on average.)
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Post by mom on Oct 17, 2017 17:15:31 GMT
I read the article on Sunday and was upset after reading it.
While I don't think she *intended* to blame victims - she did. And she implied that she made good choices so it didn't happen to her. That dressing modestly helped save her. Well, in six grade I was wearing overalls and a turtleneck shirt with a pair of Ked shoes. Being modest didn't help me.
Honestly - I am disappointed. At no point does she place the blame squarely on who deserves it all. The people who CHOSE to commit sexual assault.
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Post by annabella on Oct 17, 2017 17:19:33 GMT
I understand what she is saying, its really more of a memoir piece. She's saying I know I'm not pretty and that's why I get odd ball roles, so is this op-ed an advertisement to make herself relevant to get another job?
If you take anything else away from her article I honestly think you are twisting her words. She's talking about herself only, how her looks led to her protected experience from men, not saying pretty women deserved xyz. It's a solely a whoa is me article.
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Post by annabella on Oct 17, 2017 17:21:18 GMT
And she implied that she made good choices so it didn't happen to her. That dressing modestly helped save her. I disagree, she said said in many polite ways that her face is ugly, she has no boobs and her body is covered up anyway. That's why sadly no one ever invited her back to their hotel room. She's not talking about anyone else's experience but her own. I wonder if she feels she missed out on a quintessential Hollywood experience that every women out there has had and thus this brings her back to feeling bad about her looks?
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Post by busy on Oct 17, 2017 17:21:20 GMT
But even that is greatly troubling to me because it equates sexual harassment and assault with *sex* and desirability. As if only beautiful girls are at risk. And that's simply not true - and of course is not somehow more acceptable, as if they could avoid being victimized if they looked different. Sexual harassment and assault are all about power, not sexual desire. She may never have been a victim, but that was frankly luck. She seems to think it's because of her good decisions, which suggests that those who *are* victimized are making bad decisions. I just think there are a lot of problematic undercurrents to this article that I am sure she did not realize when she wrote it, but give an insight into her view of the issue. You are right, it is about power. But it's a mistake to take the *sex* out of the equation completely. There is still an undercurrent of expectation on women in our society. An expectation of wish fulfillment and rights from men that is most often tied to how desirable the woman is. The more desirable she is the more expectations are placed on her. If you don't believe me, go read a message board full of men talk about actresses. Those expectations partly fuel the rape culture. All women deal with it, but yes, pretty girls deal with harassment more than those of us who are not (on average.) I totally get what you're saying and I do agree, to an extent. Sexual desirability does play some role especially when you are talking about straight up objectification, especially from a distance and especially about strangers. But in real life, I am less sure about how much of a role it plays. I think if you looked at photos of a cross section of survivors of sexual assault, it wouldn't be stacked with beautiful women. I suspect it would be, more or less, a representative cross-section of the female population. Things like cat-calling and lewd comments in public by strangers are kind of the middle ground between the two, and I think probably does skew somewhat to more conventionally attractive women.
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Post by busy on Oct 17, 2017 17:25:07 GMT
And she implied that she made good choices so it didn't happen to her. That dressing modestly helped save her. I disagree, she said said in many polite ways that her face is ugly, she has no boobs and her body is covered up anyway. That's why sadly no one ever invited her back to their hotel room. She's not talking about anyone else's experience but her own. I absolutely disagree with you. It's clear she thinks others would be better off making similar choices.
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oh yvonne
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Post by oh yvonne on Oct 17, 2017 17:28:04 GMT
Well, I can see how one would take it like that. I know she has very conservative religious views and I read her article sort of through those eyes. Somehow I didn't see it as blaming the victim, but saying she looked out of place,so she was left alone...and that she didn't feel the need to change her ways to fit in. We all bring our history to anything we read, or any conversation, and sometimes that creates a situation where the message received is not the message the person thought they were sending. exactly.
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scrappinspidey2
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Post by scrappinspidey2 on Oct 17, 2017 17:36:13 GMT
I grew up in a very conservative christian upbringing. I was raised in very small, conservative schools that were run by this particular sect. No make up, no jewelry, and very conservative clothing choices. In middle school I was held down by one boy while another tried to kiss me. I got away. In one particular high school, it was common for the boys to grab butts and boobs of the girls with very little recourse for the girls. I was grabbed just like others and then the comments were made about how I didn't have boobs or a butt to grab. Yet they continued. It got worse about age 16 when my mom's husband joined in.
Being conservative, making conservative choices, being raised religious or conservative does not save you. It happens in all cultures, religious beliefs, and house holds. She is sadly misinformed and very lucky she has not gone through it like so many other women have. But to say its because she was different and made conservative choices is BS and I really wish women who haven't experienced it would not make such comments. It really does pat those of us on the head who have had it happen through no choice of our own. It says that we should have done something different. It doesn't hold the men responsible for their choices.
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janeliz
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Post by janeliz on Oct 17, 2017 17:38:43 GMT
I respect that she has her own unique viewpoint after many years in Hollywood, but I was uncomfortable with what she had to say. She seemed, to me, to be patting herself on the back for dressing a certain way and making certain life choices, yet she also seemed to suggest that she was too homely for anyone to harass. As though only gorgeous women with an eye for fashion are at risk.
She strikes me as a nice enough person, so I'm sure her intentions were pure. It was weird to me, though.
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Post by padresfan619 on Oct 17, 2017 17:45:55 GMT
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craftykitten
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Post by craftykitten on Oct 17, 2017 17:55:21 GMT
I think she had a great opportunity to talk about the culture that has allowed this abuse to happen...and she didn't take it. It's not the first time I've disagreed with her articles and I'm sure it won't be the last. It's also not the first time she's ended up defending something she's said because we all "misunderstood"...maybe she needs to work on her communication skills, or just own the fact she's not as feminist as she thinks she is.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Oct 17, 2017 18:01:18 GMT
I think she's relaying her experiences and how she feels people reacted to her. I think the difficulty is extrapolating that to anything else or even as an example of anything other than her experiences. I'll leave aside the fact that I think she has some serious self esteem issues. I agree completely that it's too easy for it to sound like victim blaming - while she didn't say it, it certainly feels implied and really what's the point of writing this now if it's not to insinuate how you can navigate Hollywood without being assaulted.
I'll also say that right now I feel like we're combing so many different experiences with vastly different magnitudes of harm that everything feels more muddled than helpful to me. It's why I didn't participate in the metoo on facebook. While I appreciate the fact that people are trying to raise awareness. Lumping a catcall on the street and rape with a hashtag just doesn't feel right.
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Post by epeanymous on Oct 17, 2017 18:20:51 GMT
I didn't think it was thoughtful either. Some of my worst issues have been when I have been dressed in a suit and was in public in a professional setting; I was dressed modestly and making conservative choices, and, boom, a judge decided to play with my hair, e.g., or opposing counsel was telling me I should let my hair down because I'd look hotter. The idea that we control this through our behavior or life choices somehow is baffling. I have a life built around intellect and achievement, and guess what? I too encounter men who harass and grope and assault.
As an aside, I thought the swipe at Danica McKeller--who, like Mayim Bialik, is academically accomplished--was uncalled-for (and, yes, I read that as a swipe),
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Deleted
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Aug 18, 2025 20:12:20 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2017 18:27:42 GMT
Newsflash: nuns and women in full cover are raped.
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Post by mom on Oct 17, 2017 18:34:27 GMT
I grew up in a very conservative christian upbringing. I was raised in very small, conservative schools that were run by this particular sect. No make up, no jewelry, and very conservative clothing choices. In middle school I was held down by one boy while another tried to kiss me. I got away. In one particular high school, it was common for the boys to grab butts and boobs of the girls with very little recourse for the girls. I was grabbed just like others and then the comments were made about how I didn't have boobs or a butt to grab. Yet they continued. It got worse about age 16 when my mom's husband joined in. Being conservative, making conservative choices, being raised religious or conservative does not save you. It happens in all cultures, religious beliefs, and house holds. She is sadly misinformed and very lucky she has not gone through it like so many other women have. But to say its because she was different and made conservative choices is BS and I really wish women who haven't experienced it would not make such comments. It really does pat those of us on the head who have had it happen through no choice of our own. It says that we should have done something different. It doesn't hold the men responsible for their choices. YES. SaveSave
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luckyexwife
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Post by luckyexwife on Oct 17, 2017 18:34:57 GMT
I know it's not Hollywood or a casting couch, but I wonder what self-protecting and wise decisions the Duggars sisters could have made to keep from being sexually assaulted? I'm pretty sure they have modesty and being conservative covered, so perhaps she could enlighten them with some of her wise decisions?
I do think when she wrote was interesting, and if she would have framed it in a different way, it probably would have been taken much better. It sounds like her experience in Hollywood was not the norm, and it sounds like she does have an interesting story to tell. But saying that her self-protecting and wise decisions are what saved her from harassment or assault, seems foolish at best.
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Post by mom on Oct 17, 2017 18:39:35 GMT
I know it's not Hollywood or a casting couch, but I wonder what self-protecting and wise decisions the Duggars sisters could have made to keep from being sexually assaulted? I'm pretty sure they have modesty and being conservative covered, so perhaps she could enlighten them with some of her wise decisions? I do think when she wrote was interesting, and if she would have framed it in a different way, it probably would have been taken much better. It sounds like her experience in Hollywood was not the norm, and it sounds like she does have an interesting story to tell. But saying that her self-protecting and wise decisions are what saved her from harassment or assault, seems foolish at best. I think her timing sucked. If this had been written a month ago I believe the public reaction would have been different. SaveSave
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Post by Darcy Collins on Oct 17, 2017 18:43:48 GMT
I didn't think it was thoughtful either. Some of my worst issues have been when I have been dressed in a suit and was in public in a professional setting; I was dressed modestly and making conservative choices, and, boom, a judge decided to play with my hair, e.g., or opposing counsel was telling me I should let my hair down because I'd look hotter. The idea that we control this through our behavior or life choices somehow is baffling. I have a life built around intellect and achievement, and guess what? I too encounter men who harass and grope and assault. As an aside, I thought the swipe at Danica McKeller--who, like Mayim Bialik, is academically accomplished--was uncalled-for (and, yes, I read that as a swipe), How was it a swipe? Danica was the girl who played on Wonder Years right? If my 90s sitcom memory serves, it overlapped with Blossom and I have no difficulty imagining a young actress would like to look like her - I sure as hell did in the early 90s. I guess I don't see how commenting that someone is attractive implies they're not intelligent. What am I missing?
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Post by epeanymous on Oct 17, 2017 18:54:13 GMT
I didn't think it was thoughtful either. Some of my worst issues have been when I have been dressed in a suit and was in public in a professional setting; I was dressed modestly and making conservative choices, and, boom, a judge decided to play with my hair, e.g., or opposing counsel was telling me I should let my hair down because I'd look hotter. The idea that we control this through our behavior or life choices somehow is baffling. I have a life built around intellect and achievement, and guess what? I too encounter men who harass and grope and assault. As an aside, I thought the swipe at Danica McKeller--who, like Mayim Bialik, is academically accomplished--was uncalled-for (and, yes, I read that as a swipe), How was it a swipe? Danica was the girl who played on Wonder Years right? If my 90s sitcom memory serves, it overlapped with Blossom and I have no difficulty imagining a young actress would like to look like her - I sure as hell did in the early 90s. I guess I don't see how commenting that someone is attractive implies they're not intelligent. What am I missing? I don't know if you are missing anything so much as we are reading the same essay differently. In that part, Mayim is talking about how she wanted to be pretty like these other actors, and then she moves on to a section about how she focused on her education and how different the experience is for her in getting cast because of her looks.
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scrappyesq
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Post by scrappyesq on Oct 17, 2017 19:08:24 GMT
To me it seemed like she was writing the ugly girl's revenge. I read/ see interviews with her where time and time again she puts herself in the category of being unwanted because of her looks. That's a self esteem issue, because only YOU can decide what standard of beauty you fit. I'm not at all saying that we don't live in a society where certain attributes are prized, but at what point do you stop letting that control you? She has lived her entire life writing and speaking about how she was the girl who no one ever wanted, and now here is her opportunity to say that she won. Sounds more like sour grapes than anything.
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Post by papersilly on Oct 17, 2017 19:21:04 GMT
i think there are plenty of women who "make good choices" who still get harassed. i was just reading an article about the rape culture in India and i'm pretty sure those victims were dressed modestly and were making good choices. one such victim was at the police station reporting a domestic violence issue when she was raped by two police officers. talk about being victimized again.
i understand what Mayim was trying to say but i think she was a bit off base about who gets harassed. even the most modest, least attractive, unassuming women get harassed. it an act of violation, not just an act of sex or sexuality.
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