Olan
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Post by Olan on Mar 11, 2018 12:13:26 GMT
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Mar 11, 2018 12:16:16 GMT
From the articles:
Tamice Namae Spencer, who used to attend a mostly white church in Kansas City, said her fellow congregants did not seem to even know the name Trayvon Martin, the black teenager killed in Florida at the hands of George Zimmerman in 2012. And when Ms. Spencer brought up his death, she said white church members asked why she was being divisive.
“It’s not even on your radar and I can’t sleep over it,” she remembered thinking. “And now that I’m being vocal, you think I’ve changed.”
At Gateway, black worshipers would discreetly ask one another if they were the only ones who noticed that one could talk about seemingly anything but racism, a feeling one former congregant described as an out-of-body experience.
“Everything we tried is not working,” said Michael Emerson, the author of “Divided by Faith,” a seminal work on race relations within the evangelical church. “The election itself was the single most harmful event to the whole movement of reconciliation in at least the past 30 years,” he said. “It’s about to completely break apart.”
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2018 14:12:58 GMT
The church I attend has several black members that fit right in. We have white people, and Hispanic also--and we host a Chinese mission at our facility. (our pastor is Hispanic by the way). There will soon be a Spanish speaking mission there too. You can see racism wherever you look, but you can also see loving integrated congregations. We also have an "all black" church in our town, for those blacks that don't want to integrate, but most of the churches in our town are very integrated.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Mar 11, 2018 14:38:34 GMT
The church I attend has several black members that fit right in. We have white people, and Hispanic also--and we host a Chinese mission at our facility. (our pastor is Hispanic by the way). There will soon be a Spanish speaking mission there too. You can see racism wherever you look, but you can also see loving integrated congregations. We also have an "all black" church in our town, for those blacks that don't want to integrate, but most of the churches in our town are very integrated. Do you think your local black church exists because parishioners don't want to integrate? It would seem more likely that the (racist) exclusion of black people from houses of worship forced them to create their own spaces. Now why they've chosen to stay put could depend on a variety of things. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2018 14:54:50 GMT
You can think what you want. I know that at our church, we welcome all. Maybe they want to go to an all black church. That is fine. Let them go where they want. They would be welcome at any church in the community that I know about. I'm not going to run around after anybody and say they have to go to a different church than they choose.
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Sarah*H
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Post by Sarah*H on Mar 11, 2018 14:57:56 GMT
I read this article yesterday and it's completely unsurprising. As a white person who left the church for similar reasons, I'm doubtful there will ever be reconciliation because the people who stay don't think they are the problem.
(And in typing that, I guess it's human nature because of course I don't think I or people who think like I do are the problem either and therein lies the crux of the problem, right?)
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Mar 11, 2018 15:30:51 GMT
You can think what you want. I know that at our church, we welcome all. Maybe they want to go to an all black church. That is fine. Let them go where they want. They would be welcome at any church in the community that I know about. I'm not going to run around after anybody and say they have to go to a different church than they choose. No one is accusing you or your church of being unwelcoming. You said the all-black church made a choice not to integrate. I was simply pointing out that black churches only exist because white people didn't want black people worshipping in the same spaces so you really can't act as if black people have made a choice. We didn't. From the article, many black Christians felt called to attend all white churches with a hope of reconciliation and there was actually a campaign to improve race relations in the evangelical church. |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Mar 11, 2018 15:33:28 GMT
I read this article yesterday and it's completely unsurprising. As a white person who left the church for similar reasons, I'm doubtful there will ever be reconciliation because the people who stay don't think they are the problem. (And in typing that, I guess it's human nature because of course I don't think I or people who think like I do are the problem either and therein lies the crux of the problem, right?) I battle this every day. Am I the problem or the solution. But in the context of Christianity, no one should really be grappling with the right thing to do. God already told us. |
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Post by jeremysgirl on Mar 11, 2018 17:43:18 GMT
Well I found the article interesting, but not surprising at all. I could not sit amongst people who eagerly voted for someone as racist as Donald Trump and feel fellowship with them. It wouldn't matter if I were black or white.
I did constituent relations for a state legislator 100 years ago, and I would accompany my boss once a month to eat breakfast with three black pastors from mostly black churches to discuss these issues. So IME, this is nothing new. Trump has just shined a light on it.
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scrappinmama
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Post by scrappinmama on Mar 11, 2018 18:20:14 GMT
I read this article this morning. I see very few minorities at my church and it makes me sad. I know it bothers my church as well and they are working hard to be more diverse. As someone who is a minority, I would like to see a variety of people attending services.
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quiltz
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Post by quiltz on Mar 11, 2018 18:33:18 GMT
No one is accusing you or your church of being unwelcoming. You said the all-black church made a choice not to integrate. I was simply pointing out that black churches only exist because white people didn't want black people worshipping in the same spaces so you really can't act as if black people have made a choice. We didn't. From the article, many black Christians felt called to attend all white churches with a hope of reconciliation and there was actually a campaign to improve race relations in the evangelical church. I disagree with your comment, in bold. I live in Canada, so maybe there is a difference, however, different churches have different "styles" of worship. Some churches are more conservative, using hymns and organ & sometimes a choir, which is a bit reserved in the style of singing. Other churches have "worship teams", no choirs, have drums, guitars, keyboards & lead singers with no choir. Different people like different styles or ways to worship. My church has a mix of many people. The worship style is with a worship team that sings more contemporary music with some hymns that have been re-mixed. |
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J u l e e
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Post by J u l e e on Mar 11, 2018 18:51:01 GMT
It's not merely about "welcoming all" or attempting to be more diverse. It's not simply a matter of counting up the people and proudly proclaiming how many white people, black people, Hispanic people, etc. attend your church - while using them in photos for marketing. That is profoundly missing the point of community and reconciliation . Do we want to just count the number of black people or do we want community? Do we want to listen to each other and acknowledge experiences that are personal to them and only history to us (stole that from the article)?
The stories in that article turn my stomach - things preached from the stage and spoken in personal conversations. I'm a white person who has quietly "exited" my church for similar reasons (while still attending - long story, just don't judge too harshly) and I'm sitting here thinking of what I can do to change things at my church after reading that article. Can I start a group focusing on meaningful conversations between black people and white people who are willing to share and listen and ask questions? I feel woefully unqualified for that. But I dont see it happening otherwise and I think white churches are doing a terrible job of mirroring God's kingdom as a whole - especially in our politics (and we're not fooling anyone if we think those are kept separate amongst white evangelicals).
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Mar 11, 2018 20:06:16 GMT
No one is accusing you or your church of being unwelcoming. You said the all-black church made a choice not to integrate. I was simply pointing out that black churches only exist because white people didn't want black people worshipping in the same spaces so you really can't act as if black people have made a choice. We didn't. From the article, many black Christians felt called to attend all white churches with a hope of reconciliation and there was actually a campaign to improve race relations in the evangelical church. I disagree with your comment, in bold. I live in Canada, so maybe there is a difference, however, different churches have different "styles" of worship. Some churches are more conservative, using hymns and organ & sometimes a choir, which is a bit reserved in the style of singing. Other churches have "worship teams", no choirs, have drums, guitars, keyboards & lead singers with no choir. Different people like different styles or ways to worship. My church has a mix of many people. The worship style is with a worship team that sings more contemporary music with some hymns that have been re-mixed. Because culture filters into religion or cultural practices are tenets of religion depending on your faith system. Naturally the way a church worships will vary depending on the cultural practices of that group. Same could be said for what foods will be served during fellowship. What instruments are played. What language the religious leader speaks to the parashioners. Still doesn't change the fact that most black churches started out because white people didn't want to worship with us. That part of history no one can rewrite. You aren't disputing that right? Actually the history of enslaved Africans and Christianity is interesting enough without the rewrite anyway |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Mar 11, 2018 20:18:56 GMT
Bit of History about Canadians and black churches. www.mcmaster.ca/mjtm/1-5.htmBlacks and the Church in Nova Scotia In Victorious Defeat, Brown and Senior state, "The Blacks' greatest success was religious organization, by which they developed as a distinct and separate community."43 When the Black Loyalists arrived in Nova Scotia in 1783, the Church of England, the established church, was immediately fortified with the arrival of White Anglican Loyalists. As with their secular experience, the Loyal Black settlers (who were predominantly Anglican, Methodist and Baptist) found themselves relegated to a distinctly second-class status in the church. For example, most Blacks believed that baptism in the Anglican Church would make them "one and equal with whites."44 However, even when Dr. John Breynton, Rector of St. Paul's, baptized many hundreds of them, Blacks found that while they could attend services and receive communion, they were segregated from White parishioners and forced into galleries set apart for Blacks, the poor, and soldiers. By 1815, Black worshippers were kept behind a partition.45 Ultimately, Blacks were excluded when White parishioners grew in numbers. Furthermore, they were advised to gather in their own private homes.46 This displacement left Black lay leaders with little supervision or instruction. To add insult to injury, in 1784 the Anglican-related Society for the Propagation of the Gospel had some Blacks displaced because after years of waiting for the property promised to them, they had settled on an area of land reserved for church and school.47 Since it was obvious that they were not welcome and could not be nurtured in the Church of England, the Nova Scotian Blacks found their spiritual needs best met by their own lay preachers and teachers, in their segregated communities, and in independent churches only nominally affiliated with the White-dominated parent churches.48 Their religious meetings became important spiritual and social outlets. Without them they would have been swallowed up by their broken dreams of protection and security. The autonomous development of the Black Church in Nova Scotia coincided with the Nova Scotian counterpart to the revivalism of the Great Awakening, which Ellen Gibson Wilson describes as, "a revival which undermined the fashionable and formal churches and created a democratic and hot-blooded frontier religion."49 |
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RosieKat
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Post by RosieKat on Mar 11, 2018 21:09:20 GMT
Well I found the article interesting, but not surprising at all. I could not sit amongst people who eagerly voted for someone as racist as Donald Trump and feel fellowship with them. It wouldn't matter if I were black or white. I agree with this. It's one reason I've had a difficult time with (some) people at my church - I know they voted for him and continue to support him, and in my opinion, he does not support much of anything that Jesus would support. I also agree with the article that "We thought, O.K. there was a tremendous racial problem in America. The civil rights movement came, laws have been passed now and we’re over that now. We passed it." I do think many of us thought that racism was still present but relatively way better. The past few years have shown me that is clearly not the case. Know better, do better. |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Mar 12, 2018 13:11:12 GMT
Well I found the article interesting, but not surprising at all. I could not sit amongst people who eagerly voted for someone as racist as Donald Trump and feel fellowship with them. It wouldn't matter if I were black or white. I agree with this. It's one reason I've had a difficult time with (some) people at my church - I know they voted for him and continue to support him, and in my opinion, he does not support much of anything that Jesus would support. I also agree with the article that "We thought, O.K. there was a tremendous racial problem in America. The civil rights movement came, laws have been passed now and we’re over that now. We passed it." I do think many of us thought that racism was still present but relatively way better. The past few years have shown me that is clearly not the case. Know better, do better. I am a big proponent of knowing better and then doing better. When I hear people say "many of us thought racism was much better" I wonder how that could have happened. The racial violence wasn't just spraying innocent black people wanting to vote with high pressure water hoses so I don't understand why anyone thought that level of sickness and lack of humanity could just be all better in less than 6 decades. Even if black people "got over slavery" there would still be years and years (present day) of the mistreatment of black and brown bodies to atone for. What made everyone think racial violence was over? Why is any level of racism acceptable? So many things pointed to the contrary, simply asking one black elder would have cleared up any misunderstanding. The cynical angry part of me doesnt believe it because it doesn't make logical sense. The woman in the article noted that once she began talking about race and her experiences as a black woman, many of the congregants told her she "changed". Thats exactly what happened to me here. My first post about race Ginavecy basically accused me of never posting and the vibe was incredibly unwelcoming. So the next time race relations takes another nose dive in this country no one should act like they didn't see this coming. I told you and you called me a troll *shrugs shoulders" not to mention the lack of actionable change and accountability isnt Christ-like at all. quiltz did you see the Canada link. |
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Post by jeremysgirl on Mar 12, 2018 13:28:37 GMT
You know what, Olan, I am white and I need to force myself to look at the problem. You posting what you do here does me a service because it keeps me at the forefront of issues, you often share historical things that educate me too. I am a good, decent person, but because I am white, sometimes I don't see it the way you see it on a daily basis. I am fortunate to live in a very mixed area. It seems like race and my friendships, is a non-issue. We don't talk about it very often and you know maybe we should. And sometimes, it's so subtle, that I think there are a lot of decent, non-racist white people don't even notice it. As I look around my circle, it does seem like race relations have improved. I need to look at the bigger picture more often. |
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Country Ham
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Post by Country Ham on Mar 12, 2018 13:45:03 GMT
My husband has never preached based on what you see in the news. Doesn't matter the age, gender, or ethnicity of the people involved in the situation. He also doesn't preach politics. We haven't lost any members over the last several years. Actually about 3 years ago we built an addition to the building and our attendance has increased to almost 200 every Sunday.
Sadly there were "issues" in the predominately black church in the neighboring community that caused several families to leave and worship in other congregations and that saddens me. Not because these families wouldn't be welcomed but because I am afraid that their small community is losing part of their history. I love that church and if my husband wasn't a pastor it was a place I would consider placing membership with.
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eleezybeth
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Post by eleezybeth on Mar 12, 2018 14:34:02 GMT
I am a big proponent of knowing better and then doing better. When I hear people say "many of us thought racism was much better" I wonder how that could have happened. That's an interesting question. I guess I'm guilty. I'm not my grandmother or my mother. I don't talk like them, I don't think like them, I don't act like them. I do not have friends who act like them. My circle is quite diverse for not only race, but sexual orientation, religion, country of origin. My children's circles are quite diverse (my 1st grader is the only blue eyed in her class!). The ignorance that has been breed for generations in this country hasn't continued as strongly in previous generations in my group (I don't say erased because I'm sure there is one of us with deep dark thoughts...) I am NOT saying that it is perfect, I'm not saying that our whole country has had this experience but I am saying I had hope. My world IS better. For me it is not just a black and white issue but a tolerance issue. When we have Christian's being hateful towards Muslims, Jews, etc. we have hate in our country. When we have the homophobia so strong that kids are being tied to fences and beaten to death, we have hate. When we still see people vilianized for being feminist or pro woman, we have hate. We have a serious problem with intolerance in this country and sadly, I don't think any minority group is free from guilt. I had a black colleague tell me that it was against her religion to work with me because I am white. All of our conversations either had to happen with another person in the room or through another person. Considering I was the only white woman on the team, it was weird - but I was tolerant. Okay, it's your religion, follow your religion. I can either choose to be offended or choose to be tolerant. I chose tolerance. I encourage my children to be tolerant. We talk about every stupid religion you can think of. We have a big book of religions and when we hear something we look it up. For example: Sikh. DD has a little boy with a turban in class. So there are lots of questions. Let's learn! Oldest has a friend who is Muslim and just recently started wearing her hair covered. Why the change? What does it mean? Let's learn! We take the history months serious. A fact a day! Then, it is inevitable with oldest, we are down the rabbit hole and we learn so much more. They know more about Pacific Islanders than any adult I know! Thank you Moana, but seriously, I wasn't ever taught anything. Again- hope. So, guilty. It is a good point. Thanks for making it. |
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Post by quiltz on Mar 12, 2018 16:20:33 GMT
I am not Anglican and therefor will not comment. I don't live in Nova Scotia and don't know about the history there. Simply not my interest. My church is welcoming to all, very similar to what Country Ham said about her church. Sermons on based on scripture and not politics. Canada is a "melting pot" of people and is Canada is VERY different than America. We are simply neighbouring countries, but I think that our cultures are very different. Study our history and you will find out that Canada hasn't had a civil war within itself. |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Mar 12, 2018 16:30:47 GMT
I am not Anglican and therefor will not comment. I don't live in Nova Scotia and don't know about the history there. Simply not my interest.My church is welcoming to all, very similar to what Country Ham said about her church. Sermons on based on scripture and not politics. Canada is a "melting pot" of people and is Canada is VERY different than America. We are simply neighbouring countries, but I think that our cultures are very different. Study our history and you will find out that Canada hasn't had a civil war within itself. But you already did comment? Your comments made it seem like Canada didnt have a history of racial discrimination or racial violence, even if it doesn't interest you, the fact remains Canada and the United States of America have a lot in common when it comes to the treatment of black people. Canadian Civil Liberties
Canadian Museum of Human Rights
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Mar 12, 2018 16:52:59 GMT
You know what, Olan , I am white and I need to force myself to look at the problem. You posting what you do here does me a service because it keeps me at the forefront of issues, you often share historical things that educate me too. I am a good, decent person, but because I am white, sometimes I don't see it the way you see it on a daily basis. I am fortunate to live in a very mixed area. It seems like race and my friendships, is a non-issue. We don't talk about it very often and you know maybe we should. And sometimes, it's so subtle, that I think there are a lot of decent, non-racist white people don't even notice it. As I look around my circle, it does seem like race relations have improved. I need to look at the bigger picture more often. If you have a diverse circle of friends and this administration or hell even the last didn't bring about frank conversations about race relations then maybe you have a friend like me*. My ancestors and I disagree very strongly with subtle being used a descriptor for racism though. Maybe if you aren't the one constantly being discriminated against it may seen subtle. *Here at 2peas people treat me poorly simply because I am vocal about race-related issues. Though I was initially hurt, it is much easier to "fall out" with a bunch of women I had never met. However, I grew up in a predominately white community and have life-long white friends who I had to cut ties with because I was tired of not being able to communicate openly and honestly about my experiences as a black woman. Ask your friends how they feel and be prepared to listen to what they have to say. The time for good decent people to intervene has already happened. We don't need to discuss common ground or have meaningful conversations about race anymore. You know what happened. I know what happened. You see whats going on. I see whats going on. |
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Post by jeremysgirl on Mar 12, 2018 16:58:19 GMT
Olan, the conversations have all picked up since the election. I have cut ties with many over these issues. I cleaned 59 people out of my Facebook friends list in the past two months because this election brought to light some disgusting sentiments. I am a pretty easy going, live and let live person but I am slowly marking my place in the sand and letting people know I won't tolerate this. I appreciate your perspective. It keeps me from getting too comfortable.
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mallie
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Post by mallie on Mar 12, 2018 17:21:46 GMT
It would be a major willful joke to think that black church formed because black people had that preference. Black churches largely formed because the mainline churches founded by whites were not welcoming. The African Methodist Episcopal Church, as an example, formed because of particular and systemic discrimination against blacks in the church, including during worship.
I remember visiting a nearly intact plantation in the deep south where there was a separate church on the grounds for the slaves to worship at because they were not welcome at the white church in town. Or if the chruches allowed blacks in the door, it was segregated. As an example at the other end of the country, when I took a tour a while back of the First Baptist Church in Providence, RI, I was relieved that the guide told the truth and mentioned that there was a separate seating space for blacks in that congregation for a very long time.
The Christian church has had a long time policy of "We are all equal, but some of us are more equal than others". Although the number of people who are "more equal" has increased in the last few decades, that policy has barely changed as a way of church life. Seems like there is always a reason to look down at others who are "less than" and exclude them. Whether it is race, gender, sexual orientation... it's always something.
I think it's one thing to say a church is welcoming, but it's another to truly BE welcoming. To treat people as Jesus would have treated them -- with all of their differences not only accepted, but acknowledged and seen as valuable and the "norm". To be willing to engage and talk about issues, rather than ignore them or tell people they are "causing" conflict or are too "sensitive". Too often, I have seen that the acceptance and long term welcome is conditional upon them acting just like "us" and really as a form of noblesse oblige.
To believe the bible, Jesus himself caused all sorts of conflict by questioning and pushing against the status quo, especially in benefit of the marginalized. If a person truly believes in Jesus as the Christ and says they follow him, they should be comfortable with questioning the status quo, with enfranchising the marginalized, truly welcoming everyone. They also have to believe in the radical ideas he espoused. Like, say, loving one's neighbor. Shocking idea then, apparently still shocking today.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Mar 12, 2018 18:46:57 GMT
It would be a major willful joke to think that black church formed because black people had that preference. Black churches largely formed because the mainline churches founded by whites were not welcoming. The African Methodist Episcopal Church, as an example, formed because of particular and systemic discrimination against blacks in the church, including during worship. I remember visiting a nearly intact plantation in the deep south where there was a separate church on the grounds for the slaves to worship at because they were not welcome at the white church in town. Or if the chruches allowed blacks in the door, it was segregated. As an example at the other end of the country, when I took a tour a while back of the First Baptist Church in Providence, RI, I was relieved that the guide told the truth and mentioned that there was a separate seating space for blacks in that congregation for a very long time. The Christian church has had a long time policy of "We are all equal, but some of us are more equal than others". Although the number of people who are "more equal" has increased in the last few decades, that policy has barely changed as a way of church life. Seems like there is always a reason to look down at others who are "less than" and exclude them. Whether it is race, gender, sexual orientation... it's always something. I think it's one thing to say a church is welcoming, but it's another to truly BE welcoming. To treat people as Jesus would have treated them -- with all of their differences not only accepted, but acknowledged and seen as valuable and the "norm". To be willing to engage and talk about issues, rather than ignore them or tell people they are "causing" conflict or are too "sensitive". Too often, I have seen that the acceptance and long term welcome is conditional upon them acting just like "us" and really as a form of noblesse oblige.To believe the bible, Jesus himself caused all sorts of conflict by questioning and pushing against the status quo, especially in benefit of the marginalized. If a person truly believes in Jesus as the Christ and says they follow him, they should be comfortable with questioning the status quo, with enfranchising the marginalized, truly welcoming everyone. They also have to believe in the radical ideas he espoused. Like, say, loving one's neighbor. Shocking idea then, apparently still shocking today. Absolutely! I don't belong to a church but I attend streaming services and while it would feel nice to say I'm welcoming or "tolerant" I'm almost positive if a white man walked into my all black church my first reaction would (instinctively) be to take cover. Nothing can happen if we don't tackle the issue from an honest place. Facts are also important because you aren't going to grasp the importance of the article if by your estimation black people only attend all black churches because they've made the personal choice to. quiltz had no problem disagreeing with me and acting as if Canada was the utopia of racial acceptance. Its mind boggling sometimes. |
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valleyview
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Post by valleyview on Mar 12, 2018 19:34:53 GMT
I read the article before seeing it posted here, and I thought that it is a good read for an important discussion. Thanks, Olan. I find it appalling that church leaders preach so much salvation and omit grace. If one cannot empathize with and acknowledge another's pain, then progress and forgiveness can never occur. I think that ministers shoul help us think and empower us to be our best selves. They should not be continuing institutionalized racism. Each of us is unique and most of us have our own set of issues. If a church or a friend is unwilling to accept and possibly learn from you, then they are not the best friend or church to have. That the church leaders do not try to find out what is causing their members to leave adds to my thought that they do not really care. It makes me think that if you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem. On another note, white privilege comes from never having to consider skin color at church or while driving a car. It means not having to examine history for the bias. We (general we) should all be doing better at acknowledging its existence and fighting to end it than we are. |
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Country Ham
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Post by Country Ham on Mar 12, 2018 23:16:26 GMT
I am not Anglican and therefor will not comment. I don't live in Nova Scotia and don't know about the history there. Simply not my interest. My church is welcoming to all, very similar to what Country Ham said about her church. Sermons on based on scripture and not politics. Canada is a "melting pot" of people and is Canada is VERY different than America. We are simply neighbouring countries, but I think that our cultures are very different. Study our history and you will find out that Canada hasn't had a civil war within itself. I am curious where Nova Scotia fits in. I born and raised there. Graduate of St FXU but I immigrated to the US in my 30s and am now a US Citizen. In my personal experience people are essentially the same at the grass roots level. Small town USA and small town Canada are pretty comparable. People trying earn a living, raising their families enjoy life. I have close family who are status Indian, who are biracial black/white but if you were to look at them in a crowd identify as black. I am a pretty conservative from a Canadian perspective (both religious and politically) but here in the US I fall pretty hard in the middle on many issues. I always said one mans liberal is another mans conservative. I snicker sometimes at the stereotypes I see on both sides of the border since I lived in both. Anyhow I didn't mean to hijack anything but I saw the mention of NS I got curious.. sorry |
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ginacivey
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Post by ginacivey on Mar 13, 2018 0:19:39 GMT
woman, many of the congregants told her she "changed". Thats exactly what happened to me here. My first post about race Ginavecy basically accused me of never posting and the vibe was incredibly unwelcoming. it was your very first post here that i commented on? gina |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Mar 14, 2018 22:49:16 GMT
woman, many of the congregants told her she "changed". Thats exactly what happened to me here. My first post about race Ginavecy basically accused me of never posting and the vibe was incredibly unwelcoming. it was your very first post here that i commented on? gina You know what thread it was. And if your memory fails you it's above in blue. |
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Olan
Pearl Clutcher
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Posts: 4,053
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Post by Olan on Oct 23, 2019 0:35:03 GMT
For posterity when someone undoubtedly complains about the bumping threads Whatever floats your boat.... |
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