craftykitten
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,304
Jun 26, 2014 7:39:32 GMT
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Post by craftykitten on Apr 28, 2018 20:02:59 GMT
spoke to vet; she agrees we should put him dow, but also thinks it's not cut and dry. we just had a family meeting. it did not go well. 15 year refuses to accept that we may have to put him down. flat out refuses. i am at a loss. eta: finally lost it on my hubby. he was cracking jokes about oo, now i can get the german shepherd i've always wanted and cracking jokes with my son. I brought him to our bedroom and i told him he wasn't being supportive, that he has NEVER UNDERSTOOD how big a deal our dogs misbehavior was, and the liability it brings to us, both emotionally and financially. Joking at this moment undermines just how serious this is, and the fact that he has always refused to put a leash on kippy sends the message that his biting or potential to bite just 'isnt' that big a deal'. I am shaking. I'm so sorry your DH is not being supportive. I would be so angry, I imagine you must be too.
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marimoose
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,282
Jul 22, 2014 2:10:14 GMT
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Post by marimoose on Apr 28, 2018 20:22:26 GMT
spoke to vet; she agrees we should put him dow, but also thinks it's not cut and dry. we just had a family meeting. it did not go well. 15 year refuses to accept that we may have to put him down. flat out refuses. i am at a loss. eta: finally lost it on my hubby. he was cracking jokes about oo, now i can get the german shepherd i've always wanted and cracking jokes with my son. I brought him to our bedroom and i told him he wasn't being supportive, that he has NEVER UNDERSTOOD how big a deal our dogs misbehavior was, and the liability it brings to us, both emotionally and financially. Joking at this moment undermines just how serious this is, and the fact that he has always refused to put a leash on kippy sends the message that his biting or potential to bite just 'isnt' that big a deal'. I am shaking. It makes me mad on your behalf reading this. It is your husband that I would be re-homing. How rude, especially when you are clearly torn up about this. It is so very selfish that your family is not on board to help out. As for putting him down, I see that as a last ditch resort and definitely because he is a small dog but because he is a dog that at the present time is not getting the support he needs. I like the idea of trying a large outdoor dog run and/or a muzzle. It also sounds like rehoming him to someone who is home more with him (if this is not true, please correct me) and maybe lives in a smaller, more controlled environment vs your acreage where Kippy runs free. I know dogs are animals and not children but we would do everything to help our children and when you adopt a pet, you make a commitment to do the best. Putting him down seems to be the easy way out (not your heart). Talk to rescue groups that have more experience and get suggestions. The dog is being blamed for something that sounds like is a human problem. I have a crazy border collie and I would never trust her to run free for fear of the same thing. She is great in the house, barks like mad at anyone who comes onto my property, looks vicious but if i invite you in, she knows it is ok and wants belly rubs. When I walk her in the park i always cross to the other side of the street so she isn't put on guard to protect me. I also use a muzzle. I err on the side of caution. I am married to a man who has allowed her to run to the car when they are leaving and has nopt put her on a leash. I do not trust this. For the most part when she sees the car and the potential for a ride, she focuses on nothing else BUT I don't want her put in a position where some crazy instinct might take over. We have had many discussions about this and NOW she does not go for car rides with him. Simple. Good luck and update us. I hate that you and Kippy are in this situation.
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FurryP
Drama Llama
To pea or not to pea...
Posts: 7,031
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2014 19:58:26 GMT
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Post by FurryP on Apr 28, 2018 20:24:34 GMT
I'm sorry mamakoala. I wish there was a solution. Maybe your vet might have one.
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Post by Delta Dawn on Apr 28, 2018 20:33:20 GMT
spoke to vet; she agrees we should put him dow, but also thinks it's not cut and dry. we just had a family meeting. it did not go well. 15 year refuses to accept that we may have to put him down. flat out refuses. i am at a loss. eta: finally lost it on my hubby. he was cracking jokes about oo, now i can get the german shepherd i've always wanted and cracking jokes with my son. I brought him to our bedroom and i told him he wasn't being supportive, that he has NEVER UNDERSTOOD how big a deal our dogs misbehavior was, and the liability it brings to us, both emotionally and financially. Joking at this moment undermines just how serious this is, and the fact that he has always refused to put a leash on kippy sends the message that his biting or potential to bite just 'isnt' that big a deal'. I am shaking. HH I would be Pea Livid. I think you earned that rank right here. That would have seriously given me pause in my marriage. Financial liability. I am just sending hugs.
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FurryP
Drama Llama
To pea or not to pea...
Posts: 7,031
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2014 19:58:26 GMT
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Post by FurryP on Apr 28, 2018 20:43:39 GMT
I am actually tired of the rescue dog movement. It has become a virtue signal. My sister ended up with a dog that was very similiar to your problem. Finally had to put it down. That makes two of us tired peas... I am tired of irresponsible backyard breeders or can't bother to spay/neuter dog owners who dump dogs at shelters, on the side of the road, or anywhere else they feel like it. It's not the dogs, it's the people.
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Post by LisaDV on Apr 28, 2018 20:45:20 GMT
I have no advice. I just want to offer hugs to you, mamakoala, and empathy.
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Post by SockMonkey on Apr 28, 2018 22:12:14 GMT
I'm really sorry. Not sure what to do about the dog, except potentially rehome with a rescue that rehabilitates dogs (like Cesar Milan).
I'd consider rehoming the husband as well, based on how he behaved during your family meeting. That behavior is just cruel.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Jun 26, 2024 19:57:37 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2018 22:34:54 GMT
I am a total dog lover--our first dog was a cocker spaniel that bit my young granddaughter because she pulled the hair on the top of her head. They didn't come visit for a long time, then I got a call and they asked if we would keep her in the bedroom when they came over. Since they were only here for an hour or so at a time, that was a very reasonable request. Our second and third dogs were so laid back they didn't bother anybody. And yes, we all love them!! I'm sorry you may have to put your dog down. that is an awful decision. I know you'll make the best decision when it is time. ((HUGS)) to you and your family.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Apr 28, 2018 22:40:14 GMT
spoke to vet; she agrees we should put him dow, but also thinks it's not cut and dry. we just had a family meeting. it did not go well. 15 year refuses to accept that we may have to put him down. flat out refuses. i am at a loss. eta: finally lost it on my hubby. he was cracking jokes about oo, now i can get the german shepherd i've always wanted and cracking jokes with my son. I brought him to our bedroom and i told him he wasn't being supportive, that he has NEVER UNDERSTOOD how big a deal our dogs misbehavior was, and the liability it brings to us, both emotionally and financially. Joking at this moment undermines just how serious this is, and the fact that he has always refused to put a leash on kippy sends the message that his biting or potential to bite just 'isnt' that big a deal'. I am shaking. That would make me Pea livid. Being put in the position of having to decide whether to put down a family pet because someone can’t get their head out of their butt long enough to be a responsible adult would really send me over the edge. And if I did end up needing to put my dog down under those circumstances, it would be a cold day in hell before I would allow DH to bring another dog into my house. IMO if he can’t be responsible with this one, he won’t be responsible with ANY dog. I’d be shaking too, shaking with fury.
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Deleted
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Jun 26, 2024 19:57:37 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2018 22:41:07 GMT
15 year refuses to accept that we may have to put him down. flat out refuses. i am at a loss. Would it be possible to muzzle him during the times you aren't home to supervise? I know it's not the idea situation, but it may give you more time to decide what you want to do next.
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scrappyesq
Pearl Clutcher
You have always been a part of the heist. You're only mad now because you don't like your cut.
Posts: 4,032
Jun 26, 2014 19:29:07 GMT
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Post by scrappyesq on Apr 28, 2018 22:48:25 GMT
I am so sorry that you are going through this mamakoala. I don't have any useful advice but you definitely have my empathy.
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Post by gailoh on Apr 28, 2018 23:45:24 GMT
Could you keep a muzzle on the dog when you are not home to monitor him? I agree with this there are several kinds so he can still drink...try the muzzle...
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Jun 26, 2024 19:57:37 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2018 0:04:47 GMT
I’m so sorry you are dealing with this. Poor Kippy has obviously had rough times in the past & it sounds like you can’t fix it without total support from your family.
I think you have more problems than the poor pup. Your family is not supporting you with what you love.
I support you with the sad decision to put him down. As a previous poster said, you can hold him & it will be a peaceful loving passing to the safe fields that dogs go.
And seriously, your husband is an ass.
I wish you peace with your decision.
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Post by pierkiss on Apr 29, 2018 0:38:23 GMT
Could you keep a muzzle on the dog when you are not home to monitor him? I agree with this there are several kinds so he can still drink...try the muzzle... I don’t mean to be rude or snarky, but I honestly don’t think this is going to work in this family right now. Husband and son can’t even be bothered to put this dog on a leash. You really think they’re going to stick the muzzle on him? No. They won’t. People don’t forgo a super simple behavior (leashing the dog) to instead do a behavior with a higher response cost on their part (putting a muzzle on the dog). Presumably it is more difficult to muzzle vs leash. I’m sorry, I just don’t think this is a realistic solution for this family right now.
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Post by birukitty on Apr 29, 2018 0:46:10 GMT
spoke to vet; she agrees we should put him dow, but also thinks it's not cut and dry. we just had a family meeting. it did not go well. 15 year refuses to accept that we may have to put him down. flat out refuses. i am at a loss. eta: finally lost it on my hubby. he was cracking jokes about oo, now i can get the german shepherd i've always wanted and cracking jokes with my son. I brought him to our bedroom and i told him he wasn't being supportive, that he has NEVER UNDERSTOOD how big a deal our dogs misbehavior was, and the liability it brings to us, both emotionally and financially. Joking at this moment undermines just how serious this is, and the fact that he has always refused to put a leash on kippy sends the message that his biting or potential to bite just 'isnt' that big a deal'. I am shaking. That would make me Pea livid. Being put in the position of having to decide whether to put down a family pet because someone can’t get their head out of their butt long enough to be a responsible adult would really send me over the edge. And if I did end up needing to put my dog down under those circumstances, it would be a cold day in hell before I would allow DH to bring another dog into my house. IMO if he can’t be responsible with this one, he won’t be responsible with ANY dog. I’d be shaking too, shaking with fury. You said exactly what I wanted to say so well crazy4scraps. First of all I'm sending you big HUGS mamakoala. I'm am so sorry you are in this position. I know you love Kirby, I can hear it when you "talk" about him. I don't think though that the idea of having a dog run on your property to put him into to keep him safe while you are away from home will work because you told us how he broke out of his wire crate using his teeth. If he can break out of a wire crate than it makes sense he would break out of a wire dog run too. Sadly without your husband on board willing to stand up and assume responsibility like he should for Kirby's safety and behavior while you aren't home and he is, I don't see how you can continue to keep him. Having a dog like this, heck any dog in my opinion, you need everyone in the family above the age of 10 to cooperate towards dog discipline. Well, as far as this dog goes I would say only adults, but for regular dogs it helps to have those people I mentioned above. You could see what the rescue group for problem dogs suggests or if they will take him, but like another Pea mentioned you won't know what will happen to him if he they take him. Putting him to sleep is a gentle procedure and you will be there with him. He won't spend his days filled with anxiety anymore so that's something to think about. Ugh, it's a difficult decision you are facing. As far as your son protesting about the dog be putting to sleep one thing to think about is your husband and your son never helped with Kirby when I'm sure you've asked them both repeatedly. We've had both dogs and cats in our family since my son was born so he's been though the process of seeing our pets be put to sleep. The hardest one for him was when his cat of 17 years was put to sleep due to cancer two years ago. He had that cat for a very long time. It's difficult but they do get through it. One thing for sure is I wouldn't get another dog for your family. Your husband has already shown his inability to accept responsibility in caring for one, and it takes the whole family (as I mentioned above) to work consistently together to train a dog. Best of luck to you. I'll be thinking of you.
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GiantsFan
Prolific Pea
Posts: 8,313
Site Supporter
Jun 27, 2014 14:44:56 GMT
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Post by GiantsFan on Apr 29, 2018 2:10:40 GMT
spoke to vet; she agrees we should put him dow, but also thinks it's not cut and dry. we just had a family meeting. it did not go well. 15 year refuses to accept that we may have to put him down. flat out refuses. i am at a loss. eta: finally lost it on my hubby. he was cracking jokes about oo, now i can get the german shepherd i've always wanted and cracking jokes with my son. I brought him to our bedroom and i told him he wasn't being supportive, that he has NEVER UNDERSTOOD how big a deal our dogs misbehavior was, and the liability it brings to us, both emotionally and financially. Joking at this moment undermines just how serious this is, and the fact that he has always refused to put a leash on kippy sends the message that his biting or potential to bite just 'isnt' that big a deal'. I am shaking. That would make me Pea livid. Being put in the position of having to decide whether to put down a family pet because someone can’t get their head out of their butt long enough to be a responsible adult would really send me over the edge. And if I did end up needing to put my dog down under those circumstances, it would be a cold day in hell before I would allow DH to bring another dog into my house. IMO if he can’t be responsible with this one, he won’t be responsible with ANY dog. I’d be shaking too, shaking with fury. Exactly this. I would be livid if DH said that. We had dogs that only liked me, DH and my parents. They were dog aggressive and people aggressive. They were never outside of our yard without a leash or if we had guests they were baby gated in another room. mamakoala - I'm so sorry. It is possible to have an aggressive dog, but all members of the family need to be on board for control measures. Can you talk to a dog trainer for help ?
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Post by mikklynn on Apr 29, 2018 2:24:49 GMT
I'm so sorry. I want to bite your DH at this point. His joking about putting YOUR dog down is really cruel.
Giant hugs.
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Deleted
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Jun 26, 2024 19:57:37 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2018 2:33:18 GMT
I agree with this there are several kinds so he can still drink...try the muzzle... I don’t mean to be rude or snarky, but I honestly don’t think this is going to work in this family right now. Husband and son can’t even be bothered to put this dog on a leash. You really think they’re going to stick the muzzle on him? No. They won’t. People don’t forgo a super simple behavior (leashing the dog) to instead do a behavior with a higher response cost on their part (putting a muzzle on the dog). Presumably it is more difficult to muzzle vs leash. I’m sorry, I just don’t think this is a realistic solution for this family right now. I'm not sure but I think the thought process is the OP can muzzle the dog before she leaves the house and not need to depend on the rest of the family to do it like leashing requires them to do.
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Post by Lexica on Apr 29, 2018 2:43:50 GMT
I don’t mean to be rude or snarky, but I honestly don’t think this is going to work in this family right now. Husband and son can’t even be bothered to put this dog on a leash. You really think they’re going to stick the muzzle on him? No. They won’t. People don’t forgo a super simple behavior (leashing the dog) to instead do a behavior with a higher response cost on their part (putting a muzzle on the dog). Presumably it is more difficult to muzzle vs leash. I’m sorry, I just don’t think this is a realistic solution for this family right now. I'm not sure but I think the thought process is the OP can muzzle the dog before she leaves the house and not need to depend on the rest of the family to do it like leashing requires them to do. That is exactly what was in my mind. Thank you. If she was able to muzzle the dog before she left, it would prevent biting and whether or not the dog got out via a door left open by the husband or son, the dog won’t endanger anyone. There are humane muzzles where they can still drink water, as Gail pointed out. I would try this before putting the dog down. And I would be having a come to Jesus meeting with my family. Don’t they realize you all can be sued? That should reach your husband if nothing else does. Personally, I would have a very hard time living with a man who disregarded something so important to me.
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Post by gmcwife1 on Apr 29, 2018 3:22:26 GMT
Aw, I’m sorry. First off- the biting is bad, yes. But it seems not to be to the dangerous dog stage, and the fact that he is manageable (if the humans manage) is a factor. Management like crafting or muzzling when you are gone may be an option. But. He is on meds already, and you have tried behaviorist for his anxiety and fear, and it is t helping. You cannot realistically move to a cabin in the woods just you and him with no visitors ever. And your family situation is what it is- so you need to accept and work with that, and if it will work for the dog. There are problem dog rescues, yes. But what happens will be totally out of your hands and he will face the trauma of losing you. And on some level you are passing a problem dog off to be someone else’s problem, rather than yours. Euthanasia is gentle and painless, and he can be with you to the end. He will not feel abandoned or alone, because you will be there. There are so many worse things than being put to sleep...I do a lot of dog rescue so I see them. If you cannot keep him and people safe, it is truly the best option. The magical “perfect new home” for problem dogs rarely arises, rather they just bounce from place to place and ultimately the outcome is the same or they stay caged forever. It’s not easy but it is probably best for your dogs well being to put him down. Thank you for sharing your experiences and thoughts so gently. mamakoala I’m truly sorry your family is not being supportive or understanding right now.
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Post by mamakoala on Apr 29, 2018 3:23:20 GMT
15 year refuses to accept that we may have to put him down. flat out refuses. i am at a loss. Would it be possible to muzzle him during the times you aren't home to supervise? I know it's not the idea situation, but it may give you more time to decide what you want to do next. After much agonizing discussion, this is what we have tried to do. At least short term. DUrig the day, the muzzle stays on. AND everyone must abide by the leash and door rules I have set up. Yes, hubby, EVEN THOUGH HE HAS A MUZZLE ON. If I find anybody not following the rules, it's the end. I am completely serious about this and i swear to effing god if my dh thinks the muzzle means he doesn't have to follow rules for this dog, I swear.....i will lose it.
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Post by mamakoala on Apr 29, 2018 3:25:13 GMT
I'm not sure but I think the thought process is the OP can muzzle the dog before she leaves the house and not need to depend on the rest of the family to do it like leashing requires them to do. That is exactly what was in my mind. Thank you. If she was able to muzzle the dog before she left, it would prevent biting and whether or not the dog got out via a door left open by the husband or son, the dog won’t endanger anyone. There are humane muzzles where they can still drink water, as Gail pointed out. I would try this before putting the dog down. And I would be having a come to Jesus meeting with my family. Don’t they realize you all can be sued? That should reach your husband if nothing else does. Personally, I would have a very hard time living with a man who disregarded something so important to me. I told him tonight AGAIN that this is a liability issue. Flat out. He thinks that only applies to dogs who really 'hurt' their victims. I said--it makes no freaking differnce. I biter is a biter and biting is NOT ACCEPTABLE. PERIOD. I really hope i got through to him. Tomorrow, I am ordering a muzzle. And having it shipped to my office since the post office won't deliver here anymore. Sigh.
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Post by mamakoala on Apr 29, 2018 3:29:44 GMT
ANd if anyone has recommendations for muzzles, please recommend away. Amazon has many but most have mixed reviews.
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Deleted
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Jun 26, 2024 19:57:37 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2018 3:53:46 GMT
I hope for your sake, and the sake of the dog, that your family understands the rules now. I pray it works, I know this is a last-ditch effort for you! Good luck Hon!
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mallie
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,253
Jul 3, 2014 18:13:13 GMT
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Post by mallie on Apr 29, 2018 5:27:08 GMT
spoke to vet; she agrees we should put him dow, but also thinks it's not cut and dry. we just had a family meeting. it did not go well. 15 year refuses to accept that we may have to put him down. flat out refuses. i am at a loss. eta: finally lost it on my hubby. he was cracking jokes about oo, now i can get the german shepherd i've always wanted and cracking jokes with my son. I brought him to our bedroom and i told him he wasn't being supportive, that he has NEVER UNDERSTOOD how big a deal our dogs misbehavior was, and the liability it brings to us, both emotionally and financially. Joking at this moment undermines just how serious this is, and the fact that he has always refused to put a leash on kippy sends the message that his biting or potential to bite just 'isnt' that big a deal'. I am shaking. I sincerely suggest you make an appointment this week for a marital counseling session with your husband. His behavior is not unsupportive; it is cruel. Downright cruel. Combined with his refusal to take 2 seconds to put a leash on -- behavior that may result in the death of your pet -- I think the issue is not really about a dog. It's about his view of you and your needs. They are clearly not only not a priority, they are something to be mocked and to make cruel jokes aobut. That is not the sign of a healthy relationship that will bring you happiness. The fact that your son is imitating him is a serious matter of concern as well.
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Apr 29, 2018 6:20:52 GMT
I sincerely suggest you make an appointment this week for a marital counseling session with your husband. His behavior is not unsupportive; it is cruel. Downright cruel. Combined with his refusal to take 2 seconds to put a leash on -- behavior that may result in the death of your pet -- I think the issue is not really about a dog. It's about his view of you and your needs. They are clearly not only not a priority, they are something to be mocked and to make cruel jokes aobut. That is not the sign of a healthy relationship that will bring you happiness. I agree with this. And if you do have to end up putting him down (and I sincerely hope you do NOT have to), no way would another dog of ANY type be coming into the house, if it was me. Why does your husband (I will not write DH, because he's acting like an ASS) feel he can willfully disregard doing things that would keep this dog, and everyone around him, safe?? There really seems like something underlying this whole situation about WHY he treats this particular dog so carelessly, and why has such a careless attitude about caring for another living being, no matter what it is. Has he thought about how horrible the person who ends up hitting the dog, if it got out into the street, would feel?? Why does he not care at all about keeping this dog safe, secure, and happy? If your dog is already on medication for anxiety, it really sounds like the way your husband acts is part of the dog's problem. The poor dog is getting SUCH conflicting, mixed messages about how to behave or not behave. My sympathies to you for being put in such a tough position, but I think the major issue here, first and foremost, really IS your husband.
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Post by sunnyd on Apr 29, 2018 6:45:27 GMT
My sister had a Jack Russel mix. Her nickname was Devil Dog. If you were walking through their house she would literally be on your heels jumping up and biting your butt with every step you took. You couldn't sit down or she would jump and bite. If we wanted to sit on their couch and visit they had to constantly (for hours) throw a toy for her to retrieve to keep the dog occupied so she wouldn't bite or eat the couch. I hated going to their house because of that dog. She could have beat Olympic athletes at high jumping. She eventually calmed down some but it took years. I'm sorry you are going through this.
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Post by gillyp on Apr 29, 2018 8:50:52 GMT
ANd if anyone has recommendations for muzzles, please recommend away. Amazon has many but most have mixed reviews. Don't get a full basket muzzle as pup won't be able to drink. You might find it best to order a couple so you can try for size and see how wide he can open his mouth. Once you have it, is there someone he would normally snap at who would be willing to do a trial run, as it were, with him? So you can see that it is actually working? It would be awful to leave him wearing it and discover he had been able to nip someone anyway. Personally I would not trust any family member to put it on correctly so I suggest you always do it yourself. If you don't plan on him wearing it all the time, then put it on at various points during the day while you are around so he can get used to it and you can reassure him. Good luck with it.
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momto4kiddos
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,153
Jun 26, 2014 11:45:15 GMT
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Post by momto4kiddos on Apr 29, 2018 11:05:41 GMT
I'm sorry you are going through this. My dd has a friend who has a dog that has fear based aggression and I've seen the struggle they go through in order to do what is best for everyone. He's an adorable dog, but he's a lot of work for the family. They've all had to learn how to best handle him. My dd has been friends for years with her, but gets a strict reintroduction when entering the house because that needs to happen for him to be ok with her.
Sounds like your kids are your best allies here. They seem invested in your dog so i'd work capitalize on that and make sure they know exactly what needs to happen in order to keep everyone safe. Their participation should also show your husband what a jackass he is in regards to this situation. Under no circumstances would I allow him to own another dog considering his stupidity in regards to the well being of this animal and the people around him.
I'd consider trying to crate train him also. I know you said he's not good with that, but i'd try again as a lot of dogs find their crates their "safe" place. We have 2 that are crate trained (one is currently lying on the couch, the other is lying in his crate.) They have nice comfy beds in theirs and the doors are kept open all day. One of mine is very afraid of thunder, she paces, shakes and hides...but if she's crated during a storm she sleeps! It's crazy to me the difference a crate can make. I'd give consideration to giving him one in an area that the family spends time in, then i'd encourage him to use it (rewarding with treats), never closing him in. If he can come and go from it, it's possible that over time this may become a useful tool for you.
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Post by Spongemom Scrappants on Apr 29, 2018 12:46:24 GMT
I'd consider rehoming the husband as well, based on how he behaved during your family meeting. That may be the best advice.
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