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Post by crimsoncat05 on May 12, 2018 21:18:27 GMT
Children should not have to live filthy like that. she said they smelled. NOTHING else. They were wearing cowboy boots, possibly they lived/worked on a farm. WHAT about that says 'neglected' and warrants a call to CPS?? I grew up in a small town, and now live in a town where there are horse properties / farms on the outskirts. People come into town in their 'work' clothes wearing boots, cowboy hats, etc. There's no way 'smelly' equates neglected without a pattern of evidence, right? I don't have kids, and have no idea how CPS works, but if they sent someone to investigate every first instance of someone calling about being 'smelly' then they'd have even less money to investigate the legit complaints.
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Post by Spongemom Scrappants on May 12, 2018 21:25:56 GMT
I just wondered if by letting it go, I did the right thing, ya know? I get all the Peas who are responding that they would do nothing for various reasons... but I also get that YOU were the one there. And something felt off. And you just didn't feel right about it. I get it. Intuition is a powerful thing. The thing is that maybe there was something off and a reason for concern, but I'm also not sure there was really anything you COULD do under the circumstances. I've had similar experiences and just had to walk away and wonder forever if there was more to the story. It's un-nerving in a way.
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Post by birukitty on May 12, 2018 21:31:11 GMT
Children should not have to live filthy like that. she said they smelled. NOTHING else. They were wearing cowboy boots, possibly they lived/worked on a farm. WHAT about that says 'neglected' and warrants a call to CPS?? I grew up in a small town, and now live in a town where there are horse properties / farms on the outskirts. People come into town in their 'work' clothes wearing boots, cowboy hats, etc. There's no way 'smelly' equates neglected without a pattern of evidence, right? I don't have kids, and have no idea how CPS works, but if they sent someone to investigate every first instance of someone calling about being 'smelly' then they'd have even less money to investigate the legit complaints. I lived on a farm during my middle teen years. Farm smells don't equate with what she smelled. She smelled urine, feces and something so horrid she could smell it two aisles away on multiple children. I know some people smell. In Europe (and some people here) there are people who don't believe in using deodorant and they reek of B.O. so offensive it makes you gag, but those are adults. This smell according to the OP was nothing like this. The question posted was "What would you do?" That's what I would do. I'd rather be safe than sorry when it comes to multiple children in a case like this. I'd report it to the authorities and let them (the experts) decide how to proceed.
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Post by crimsoncat05 on May 12, 2018 21:40:27 GMT
she said she smelled something foul. that's all. there are plenty of things that can smell foul that don't equate to neglect.
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Post by scrapmaven on May 12, 2018 21:47:14 GMT
If I truly saw something that triggered danger for the children I might do something, but this is a case of foul smells and nothing else. I would be conflicted, but reporting stinky kids might not be enough to warrant an investigation.
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PrettyInPeank
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,691
Jun 25, 2014 21:31:58 GMT
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Post by PrettyInPeank on May 12, 2018 22:40:02 GMT
If anyone is wondering, I didn't do anything. But something didn't feel right I must admit. Especially how the kids kept looking at me and staring and whispering. They could have simply been whispering about you because they heard you and thought you had been rude. Very possible. Although my comment was just about an outside smell, maybe they knew they were the ones who smelled.
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PrettyInPeank
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,691
Jun 25, 2014 21:31:58 GMT
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Post by PrettyInPeank on May 12, 2018 22:42:06 GMT
I'd also do nothing. Other than smelly badly, was there any other things to cause concern? On another message board in cyberland a wom is telling the tale about that lady that made her kids feel bad about how they smelled during a quick trip to Walmart.... No way, I wonder if it was me. I never would have said anything had I realized it was them. And nothing concerned me other than 4 kids not being in school, but I know plenty of people who homeschool, so not a big deal. Did she give anymore details? How many kids? What town? Edit: Actually their staring and whispering around me is what rose some flags. The smell alone wouldn't have necessarily have, because like someone upthread said, sometimes people have disabilities and issues surrounding toileting, so I would have assumed something like that.
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AnotherPea
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,969
Jan 4, 2015 1:47:52 GMT
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Post by AnotherPea on May 13, 2018 1:44:00 GMT
I'd also do nothing. Other than smelly badly, was there any other things to cause concern? On another message board in cyberland a wom is telling the tale about that lady that made her kids feel bad about how they smelled during a quick trip to Walmart.... No way, I wonder if it was me. I never would have said anything had I realized it was them. And nothing concerned me other than 4 kids not being in school, but I know plenty of people who homeschool, so not a big deal. Did she give anymore details? How many kids? What town? Edit: Actually their staring and whispering around me is what rose some flags. The smell alone wouldn't have necessarily have, because like someone upthread said, sometimes people have disabilities and issues surrounding toileting, so I would have assumed something like that. My apologies! I wasn’t saying I actually read this somewhere. I meant that that family’s perspective might be completely different than yours.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on May 13, 2018 1:51:36 GMT
Don't most people change their shoes when leaving the farm? I grew up in Iowa and had plenty of farm kids in my school and family. I never noticed that any of them smelled. However, I did know a family here in MN who always smelled like farm and it was horrible. I assume that most people change their clothes and shoes rather than just go to a store or school smelling like that. Otherwise I think I would have smelled more people that smell like farm. It's pretty gross to smell that let alone the thoughts of tracking manure all over the place.
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milocat
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,569
Location: 55 degrees north in Alberta, Canada
Mar 18, 2015 4:10:31 GMT
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Post by milocat on May 13, 2018 2:54:26 GMT
I live in a farming community and grew up on a farm. Like others said you would change your clothes before coming to tiwn but even if you didn't you might be able to smell a bit of dirt if you were standing right beside the person, not from 2 aisles over. It had to be layers of stink. I've run into people in the store who have had to stop even though they are in farm clothes and they say excuse the way I'm dressed... never have smelled anyone. If you were clean that morning you wouldn't smell very bad.
What would I have done, nothing.
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Post by crazy4scraps on May 13, 2018 3:39:37 GMT
I think depending on my gut feeling if something really felt off about them, I probably would have tried to find some identifying info such as a license plate number and made a call regarding whether a welfare check might be in order and let TPTB at CPS be the ones to make that determination. Only once in my life have I smelled someone like what the OP described, and it was an older, obviously homeless guy riding on a city bus when DH and I were on our honeymoon. He was visibly dirty (both skin and very soiled clothes) and he had big weeping wounds that looked like bed sores. We’ve lived near farms and that was definitely nothing like a farm smell. It really was a whole new level of awful that neither of us had ever personally experienced before, literally an open ALL the windows and hang your head out bad smell and he was sitting quite a few rows away behind us. We felt terrible once we realized what the situation was but being young, not at home and having very limited resources at the time we didn’t have any clue of what we could have done to help, plus it was an adult and not a kid. Thankfully we didn’t say anything until much later when we were by ourselves. I think if I encountered a group of kids who smelled foul like that, in a public place on a weekday when other kids are typically in school, yeah, I think I would probably try to call it in somehow. I think about that family of “homeschooled” kids in CA who were horribly neglected for decades, and wonder how much sooner they might have gotten help if anyone would have intervened when they thought something seemed off.
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azredhead
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,755
Jun 25, 2014 22:49:18 GMT
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Post by azredhead on May 13, 2018 4:07:28 GMT
Yea it would be be hard to know what to do or if you can? Were they well kept other wise, like clothed etc... Not sure what you would do- but you have to hope that it's something like the peas say and just stopped to shop.
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Post by chaosisapony on May 13, 2018 4:23:12 GMT
Sometimes your instincts go off on something and you can't identify why. Those are the time when we tell people "trust your gut". But honestly, in this situation, I'm not sure there is anything you could have done.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 28, 2024 23:18:42 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2018 4:43:56 GMT
she said she smelled something foul. that's all. there are plenty of things that can smell foul that don't equate to neglect. I am pretty sure I am fowl smelly. That f'ing duck liked to leave a nice juicy pile by the car door. Especially if I have just cleaned my shoes. As for the kids...you could jot down the license plate number and call cps. Here calls must be responsed too. I used to know this evil little bitch who would threaten to call cps on me because of crumbs around my son's chair. She did it a couple gals and they had their kids taken for the night because the kitchens weren't clean. We all hated her and were glad she moved.
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Post by jamielynn on May 13, 2018 5:21:11 GMT
I know what you are speaking of as I sat next to this child for a short period in elementary school. I was old enough to feel bad, but like most classmates couldn’t focus on my education it was so overwhelming. Like everyone else, I asked to be moved as I’d gag and couldn’t even see straight.
The family did have a working farm he helped on ... and a few years later was charged by the state for running a puppy mill/breeding operation and having very neglected, deceased pets on the property and I think even in the home. I can’t recall if he was removed from the home with that or not. He was 10+ years younger than the then adult siblings so if he was, he likely resumed normal-ish lifestyle and stayed locally. However it was the talk of town when it occurred. To this day I don’t know if it was farm smell, neglect, deceased animal scent, hoarding deceased animal scent, human or pet feces but just typing this haunts me with the scent and it’s been 20+ years.
What would I do given that? Probably written down the license plate number and bounced it off a few friends who are mandated reporters ... who likely would say not much can be done.
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Post by nlwilkins on May 13, 2018 6:32:46 GMT
The thing to remember is that CPS makes the final decision. In situations like this when you are not really sure, call and give them the facts and let them make the decision as to whether a check up is called for. Sometimes, there have been multiple calls for the same family and while each call is not really worthy of a full blown investigation, several calls add up to one. (At least I hope this is the way it works. )
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Post by crazy4scraps on May 13, 2018 14:21:27 GMT
The thing to remember is that CPS makes the final decision. In situations like this when you are not really sure, call and give them the facts and let them make the decision as to whether a check up is called for. Sometimes, there have been multiple calls for the same family and while each call is not really worthy of a full blown investigation, several calls add up to one. (At least I hope this is the way it works. ) This is my point too. I would much rather call and have it turn out to be nothing vs. not call and it turns out that it was actually something. It’s the decision for CPS to make, but they can’t check up on things that are never reported.
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Post by pierkiss on May 13, 2018 15:16:36 GMT
she said she smelled something foul. that's all. there are plenty of things that can smell foul that don't equate to neglect. I am pretty sure I am fowl smelly. That f'ing duck liked to leave a nice juicy pile by the car door. Especially if I have just cleaned my shoes. As for the kids...you could jot down the license plate number and call cps. Here calls must be responsed too. I used to know this evil little bitch who would threaten to call cps on me because of crumbs around my son's chair. She did it a couple gals and they had their kids taken for the night because the kitchens weren't clean. We all hated her and were glad she moved. Why would you All continue to have someone like this in your homes/be friends with her? That is completely insane! I’m honestly shocked that hey took the kids just because of messy kitchens? WTH???
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Post by mustlovecats on May 13, 2018 15:55:25 GMT
I am pretty sure I am fowl smelly. That f'ing duck liked to leave a nice juicy pile by the car door. Especially if I have just cleaned my shoes. As for the kids...you could jot down the license plate number and call cps. Here calls must be responsed too. I used to know this evil little bitch who would threaten to call cps on me because of crumbs around my son's chair. She did it a couple gals and they had their kids taken for the night because the kitchens weren't clean. We all hated her and were glad she moved. Why would you All continue to have someone like this in your homes/be friends with her? That is completely insane! I’m honestly shocked that hey took the kids just because of messy kitchens? WTH??? They really don’t anymore. Most states CPS has worked hard over the last decade or so to become a source of help and support to families who need it and less of the agency people fear will take away their kids. With rare exception it seems the situation has to be extreme for CPS to take kids from their parents.
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Post by SockMonkey on May 13, 2018 15:59:35 GMT
The thing to remember is that CPS makes the final decision. In situations like this when you are not really sure, call and give them the facts and let them make the decision as to whether a check up is called for. Sometimes, there have been multiple calls for the same family and while each call is not really worthy of a full blown investigation, several calls add up to one. (At least I hope this is the way it works. ) That has been my training as a mandated reporter. It's not my job to decide if the claim is valid or not; that's for CPS to investigate. If the claim is found to be not valid or not requiring an investigation, no steps are taken. You don't get in "trouble" for calling CPS with a concern.
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Post by cannes on May 13, 2018 16:05:44 GMT
I drop my kids off at school, and head to Walmart. It's 9 am on a Tuesday. You walk in through up to the front doors and smell something foul, something in the air. You approach the door employee because you're making a return, and comment that wow, it stinks outside today. You look over and see a woman with 4 kids all of various ages (maybe 4-10) in cowboy boots who walked in right before you, and the kids just stare at you. You make your way through the store, and then you smell it again. It's not outside...it's inside. It's the kids. The two oldest see me, make eye contact, and stare at me whispering to each other. They must know my unknowing comment about the outside air was about them. I end up having to pass them, and it smells so, so bad. Like urine and feces, and a touch of something rotten. I finish my shopping, and end up in line with my cart when I smell them again, a lane or so over. I look at the kids and they look normal, and are wearing clean-looking clothes. Nothing out of the ordinary other than the smell. So what would you do? We show livestock. Pigs, specifically. Their poop has a very unique, very noticeable smell. And, not in a good way. Even though we show pigs, at shows we are around all other species - lambs, goat, cattle. Try as you might to avoid it, stepping in poop or urine is a given. We know we smell when we leave shows. We’ve gone to stores after and out to eat (because you have to eat at restaurants when you travel). What would I do? Absolutely nothing. If the children looked well nourished, happy, were free from physical injury and were interacting with the adult in a normal manner, I’d go about my business. Because, as a farming family, I KNOW we’ve been the family you are mentioning.
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Post by mustlovecats on May 13, 2018 18:48:14 GMT
The thing to remember is that CPS makes the final decision. In situations like this when you are not really sure, call and give them the facts and let them make the decision as to whether a check up is called for. Sometimes, there have been multiple calls for the same family and while each call is not really worthy of a full blown investigation, several calls add up to one. (At least I hope this is the way it works. ) That has been my training as a mandated reporter. It's not my job to decide if the claim is valid or not; that's for CPS to investigate. If the claim is found to be not valid or not requiring an investigation, no steps are taken. You don't get in "trouble" for calling CPS with a concern. My training was (is) that you don’t have to decide whether CPS should investigate - but you do have to decide whether you have enough information to call it in. If I as a teacher see a student come in with poor hygiene once, usually the right approach is document and monitor. If I see this regularly, or there is an extreme situation, that’s a different story. I once had a student with only one pair of shoes. They got left on the porch one night and sprayed by a skunk. Student had no choice but to come to school with skunk smell on his shoes. Is that CPS worthy? No. (We helped resolve the problem by purchasing the student a pair of shoes at a discount store, the child’s mom was a single parent struggling to stay afloat in a high cost of living area and a little help was all that was needed.) In both the original post and my example there was one incident of a problem, that was not direct evidence of neglect, and those factors should be in the decision tree when considering a CPS call. You don’t get in trouble for making an unsubstantiated call, but you still have to reason through what you’re seeing.
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Post by melanell on May 13, 2018 21:29:27 GMT
The thing to remember is that CPS makes the final decision. In situations like this when you are not really sure, call and give them the facts and let them make the decision as to whether a check up is called for. Sometimes, there have been multiple calls for the same family and while each call is not really worthy of a full blown investigation, several calls add up to one. (At least I hope this is the way it works. ) That has been my training as a mandated reporter. It's not my job to decide if the claim is valid or not; that's for CPS to investigate. If the claim is found to be not valid or not requiring an investigation, no steps are taken. You don't get in "trouble" for calling CPS with a concern. But what about the family? If the claim is found to be invalid, does record that there was a visit made remain out there to bite that family in the butt down the line? If a family wants to foster or adopt in the future, will they find themselves having to continually explain how yes, CPS was called, but it was with no real reason? So often I see people say to call "just in case" for so many things, but I never see anyone discuss how it might affect a family who opens the door to find CPS there despite the parents having done nothing wrong at all. I'm not trying to be snarky or argumentative, but I really have no idea how it works when services go to a home and find nothing wrong at all. I do know they keep record of it, but I don't know what it means to families to have that record in existence.
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Post by SockMonkey on May 13, 2018 22:55:58 GMT
That has been my training as a mandated reporter. It's not my job to decide if the claim is valid or not; that's for CPS to investigate. If the claim is found to be not valid or not requiring an investigation, no steps are taken. You don't get in "trouble" for calling CPS with a concern. But what about the family? If the claim is found to be invalid, does record that there was a visit made remain out there to bite that family in the butt down the line? If a family wants to foster or adopt in the future, will they find themselves having to continually explain how yes, CPS was called, but it was with no real reason? So often I see people say to call "just in case" for so many things, but I never see anyone discuss how it might affect a family who opens the door to find CPS there despite the parents having done nothing wrong at all. I'm not trying to be snarky or argumentative, but I really have no idea how it works when services go to a home and find nothing wrong at all. I do know they keep record of it, but I don't know what it means to families to have that record in existence. Just because one calls CPS doesn't mean someone will even visit the home, or that they'll even take a report and open a case file. As a mandated reporter I don't get to make that decision, and I *MUST* make the call if there is any suspicion or concern. Mandated reporters mean MANDATED. Now, just a regular person on the street or a neighbor is another story. But I don't have a choice. I'm required to do it by law, regardless of how it might impact the family. If you would like to read more about it, you can look at the manual for my state here: www2.illinois.gov/dcfs/safekids/reporting/documents/cfs_1050-21_mandated_reporter_manual.pdf
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Post by SockMonkey on May 13, 2018 22:59:53 GMT
That has been my training as a mandated reporter. It's not my job to decide if the claim is valid or not; that's for CPS to investigate. If the claim is found to be not valid or not requiring an investigation, no steps are taken. You don't get in "trouble" for calling CPS with a concern. My training was (is) that you don’t have to decide whether CPS should investigate - but you do have to decide whether you have enough information to call it in. If I as a teacher see a student come in with poor hygiene once, usually the right approach is document and monitor. If I see this regularly, or there is an extreme situation, that’s a different story. I once had a student with only one pair of shoes. They got left on the porch one night and sprayed by a skunk. Student had no choice but to come to school with skunk smell on his shoes. Is that CPS worthy? No. (We helped resolve the problem by purchasing the student a pair of shoes at a discount store, the child’s mom was a single parent struggling to stay afloat in a high cost of living area and a little help was all that was needed.) In both the original post and my example there was one incident of a problem, that was not direct evidence of neglect, and those factors should be in the decision tree when considering a CPS call. You don’t get in trouble for making an unsubstantiated call, but you still have to reason through what you’re seeing. Agreed. Usually as a mandated reporter I see students frequently and have some baseline for what I'm seeing. I would have acted similarly in the shoe situation.
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Post by birukitty on May 14, 2018 0:14:17 GMT
The thing to remember is that CPS makes the final decision. In situations like this when you are not really sure, call and give them the facts and let them make the decision as to whether a check up is called for. Sometimes, there have been multiple calls for the same family and while each call is not really worthy of a full blown investigation, several calls add up to one. (At least I hope this is the way it works. ) This is my point too. I would much rather call and have it turn out to be nothing vs. not call and it turns out that it was actually something. It’s the decision for CPS to make, but they can’t check up on things that are never reported. This has been my point too from the beginning of this post. My point is the average person (like the OP) or myself isn't trained to know in a brief encounter whether this is a true case of neglect, of abuse hidden beneath the clothing, or even something worse. The OP smelled these children who smelled like urine, feces and something worse before she could see them and up to two aisles away. There have been all kinds of explanations for what this could have been but the point is we don't know exactly what caused it. I too would rather call and have it turn out to be nothing vs. not call and have it be something. The decision about what to do with the information I call in is all up to the authorities, CPS and the people who are trained in this line of work and these situations. I'm not qualified to make the decision as to whether this family needs to be investigated and whether it's farm smells, or whether the smells are explainable with some other reasons. That's up to people who are trained to protect children and in my eyes children walking around smelling like urine, feces and something even worse triggers at least a phone call.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 28, 2024 23:18:42 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2018 0:22:40 GMT
I am pretty sure I am fowl smelly. That f'ing duck liked to leave a nice juicy pile by the car door. Especially if I have just cleaned my shoes. As for the kids...you could jot down the license plate number and call cps. Here calls must be responsed too. I used to know this evil little bitch who would threaten to call cps on me because of crumbs around my son's chair. She did it a couple gals and they had their kids taken for the night because the kitchens weren't clean. We all hated her and were glad she moved. Why would you All continue to have someone like this in your homes/be friends with her? That is completely insane! I’m honestly shocked that hey took the kids just because of messy kitchens? WTH??? This was 20 years, we were in a moms group. Nobody knew it was her, until I mentioned to another mom that she was always making these snarky remarks. I think she was very unhappy and wanted other women to be as unhappy as she was. She was also a huge flake. The cps thing...yeah 23 years ago they were pretty intense in our town. Government town that you/spouse could lose job for a cps visit, speeding, bouncing a check. It depended on who your boss was.
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Post by melanell on May 14, 2018 0:59:41 GMT
But what about the family? If the claim is found to be invalid, does record that there was a visit made remain out there to bite that family in the butt down the line? If a family wants to foster or adopt in the future, will they find themselves having to continually explain how yes, CPS was called, but it was with no real reason? So often I see people say to call "just in case" for so many things, but I never see anyone discuss how it might affect a family who opens the door to find CPS there despite the parents having done nothing wrong at all. I'm not trying to be snarky or argumentative, but I really have no idea how it works when services go to a home and find nothing wrong at all. I do know they keep record of it, but I don't know what it means to families to have that record in existence. Just because one calls CPS doesn't mean someone will even visit the home, or that they'll even take a report and open a case file. As a mandated reporter I don't get to make that decision, and I *MUST* make the call if there is any suspicion or concern. Mandated reporters mean MANDATED. Now, just a regular person on the street or a neighbor is another story. But I don't have a choice. I'm required to do it by law, regardless of how it might impact the family. If you would like to read more about it, you can look at the manual for my state here: www2.illinois.gov/dcfs/safekids/reporting/documents/cfs_1050-21_mandated_reporter_manual.pdfI totally understand that a mandated reported must report something they feel is suspicious. I was referring to random people out and about. But in retrospect I realize that since I was quoting you, it would certainly seem like I was referring to you specifically. Sorry about that.
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Post by mustlovecats on May 14, 2018 1:08:57 GMT
That has been my training as a mandated reporter. It's not my job to decide if the claim is valid or not; that's for CPS to investigate. If the claim is found to be not valid or not requiring an investigation, no steps are taken. You don't get in "trouble" for calling CPS with a concern. But what about the family? If the claim is found to be invalid, does record that there was a visit made remain out there to bite that family in the butt down the line? If a family wants to foster or adopt in the future, will they find themselves having to continually explain how yes, CPS was called, but it was with no real reason? So often I see people say to call "just in case" for so many things, but I never see anyone discuss how it might affect a family who opens the door to find CPS there despite the parents having done nothing wrong at all. I'm not trying to be snarky or argumentative, but I really have no idea how it works when services go to a home and find nothing wrong at all. I do know they keep record of it, but I don't know what it means to families to have that record in existence. In my state, if an investigation is made and it is said to be an unfounded allegation, it drops off the record after a period of time. I think it’s a year. But yes, it does sit there and if you undertake investigation for security clearance or public trust during that time it can be problematic.
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Post by melanell on May 14, 2018 11:52:07 GMT
But what about the family? If the claim is found to be invalid, does record that there was a visit made remain out there to bite that family in the butt down the line? If a family wants to foster or adopt in the future, will they find themselves having to continually explain how yes, CPS was called, but it was with no real reason? So often I see people say to call "just in case" for so many things, but I never see anyone discuss how it might affect a family who opens the door to find CPS there despite the parents having done nothing wrong at all. I'm not trying to be snarky or argumentative, but I really have no idea how it works when services go to a home and find nothing wrong at all. I do know they keep record of it, but I don't know what it means to families to have that record in existence. In my state, if an investigation is made and it is said to be an unfounded allegation, it drops off the record after a period of time. I think it’s a year. But yes, it does sit there and if you undertake investigation for security clearance or public trust during that time it can be problematic. I was imagining it being possibly disastrous for someone who works with children. And I'm not trying to say people shouldn't call if they think there could be a real issue, but as we've been talking recently about people calling police for no real issue, and the possible ramifications of that, my mind therefore also went to the possible ramifications of someone calling protective services if there was no real issue......you know such as the aforementioned crumbs in a kitchen, or if some fictional Gladys Kravitz type hears a kid out in public asking their mom for Coke or medicine and decides this must mean the parents obviously are cocaine or RX drug dealers or some other such nonsense, kwim? I just think that many people these days see a snippet of someone else's life and tend to jump to the very worst conclusion, which in many instances isn't the most realistic or likely conclusion. (And again, I'm not talking about situations like teachers who see students every day and can start to sense a pattern of issues which connected look problematic.)
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