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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 1, 2018 0:33:01 GMT
While tougher border control may do what you are hoping, I just listened to Malcolm Gladwell’s podcast laying out how a tougher southern border is actually part of the cause of this problem. Is there a link between our current drug problem and the border? The local stories to me are focused on opioids rather than border drugs. Unless there is a connection between opioids and the border? Crime statistics that I have seen actually show lower crime rates in immigrant neighborhoods rather than increased crime. And MS 13 is something I don’t know much about so I can’t speak to that, but the only concerns I have heard recently have come from the White House. Sorry, I don't know Malcolm Gladwell so I can't speak to it just now. The regulations created for opioid use controlled the way Dr's were allowed to prescribe dosages to patients. As a result, a large number of people began suffering rebound drug effects while they were actively taking opioids under their Dr's care. (By this, I mean that the drug's benefit began to wear off before the patient was supposed to take the next dose. It then takes more of the drug to counteract the pain and then the symptoms become a little bit worse the next time the drug begins to wear off too soon.) It's a vicious cycle, like a dog that is driven mad chasing its own tail. I developed very serious rebounding from taking Benadryl when I had chronic hives. Benadryl is not addictive, so the cycle was able to be broken without needing a treatment facility. Opioids are highly addictive. And restricted. Patients who innocently became addicted to opioids have turned to heroin because it is cheaper and easier to get. Heroin comes in through our southern border.
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Post by redhead32 on Jul 1, 2018 0:41:33 GMT
While tougher border control may do what you are hoping, I just listened to Malcolm Gladwell’s podcast laying out how a tougher southern border is actually part of the cause of this problem. Is there a link between our current drug problem and the border? The local stories to me are focused on opioids rather than border drugs. Unless there is a connection between opioids and the border? Crime statistics that I have seen actually show lower crime rates in immigrant neighborhoods rather than increased crime. And MS 13 is something I don’t know much about so I can’t speak to that, but the only concerns I have heard recently have come from the White House. Sorry, I don't know Malcolm Gladwell so I can't speak to it just now. The regulations created for opioid use controlled the way Dr's were allowed to prescribe dosages to patients. As a result, a large number of people began suffering rebound drug effects while they were actively taking opioids under their Dr's care. (By this, I mean that the drug's benefit began to wear off before the patient was supposed to take the next dose. It then takes more of the drug to counteract the pain and then the symptoms become a little bit worse the next time the drug begins to wear off too soon.) It's a vicious cycle, like a dog that is driven mad chasing its own tail. I developed very serious rebounding from taking Benadryl when I had chronic hives. Benadryl is not addictive, so the cycle was able to be broken without needing a treatment facility. Opioids are highly addictive. And restricted. Patients who innocently became addicted to opioids have turned to heroin because it is cheaper and easier to get. Heroin comes in through our southern border. [ Ah. That makes sense. So we actually created the drug problem here, on our own. Simple economics - supply and demand. We created the demand and the supply is coming through the border. Wouldn’t solving the demand problem be an effective way to address the issue? Even if we change the immigration laws, the drug issue will stand on its own and not disappear.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2018 0:53:26 GMT
While tougher border control may do what you are hoping, I just listened to Malcolm Gladwell’s podcast laying out how a tougher southern border is actually part of the cause of this problem. Is there a link between our current drug problem and the border? The local stories to me are focused on opioids rather than border drugs. Unless there is a connection between opioids and the border? Crime statistics that I have seen actually show lower crime rates in immigrant neighborhoods rather than increased crime. And MS 13 is something I don’t know much about so I can’t speak to that, but the only concerns I have heard recently have come from the White House. Sorry, I don't know Malcolm Gladwell so I can't speak to it just now. The regulations created for opioid use controlled the way Dr's were allowed to prescribe dosages to patients. As a result, a large number of people began suffering rebound drug effects while they were actively taking opioids under their Dr's care. (By this, I mean that the drug's benefit began to wear off before the patient was supposed to take the next dose. It then takes more of the drug to counteract the pain and then the symptoms become a little bit worse the next time the drug begins to wear off too soon.) It's a vicious cycle, like a dog that is driven mad chasing its own tail. I developed very serious rebounding from taking Benadryl when I had chronic hives. Benadryl is not addictive, so the cycle was able to be broken without needing a treatment facility. Opioids are highly addictive. And restricted. Patients who innocently became addicted to opioids have turned to heroin because it is cheaper and easier to get. Heroin comes in through our southern border. The fence won’t do much in stopping the drugs coming across the southern border. The Mexican Drug Cartels are bringing drugs in through tunnels under existing walls already along the border. And they are bringing them in by sea on both coasts. Within the last year the Coast Guard has made two big busts on both coasts. They were both in the news and I wondered how efficient the Coast Guard would be once trump cut their budget. So I’m not sure how effective the wall would be as a drug deterrent when drugs are already being brought in other ways.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 1, 2018 0:53:53 GMT
Sorry, I don't know Malcolm Gladwell so I can't speak to it just now. The regulations created for opioid use controlled the way Dr's were allowed to prescribe dosages to patients. As a result, a large number of people began suffering rebound drug effects while they were actively taking opioids under their Dr's care. (By this, I mean that the drug's benefit began to wear off before the patient was supposed to take the next dose. It then takes more of the drug to counteract the pain and then the symptoms become a little bit worse the next time the drug begins to wear off too soon.) It's a vicious cycle, like a dog that is driven mad chasing its own tail. I developed very serious rebounding from taking Benadryl when I had chronic hives. Benadryl is not addictive, so the cycle was able to be broken without needing a treatment facility. Opioids are highly addictive. And restricted. Patients who innocently became addicted to opioids have turned to heroin because it is cheaper and easier to get. Heroin comes in through our southern border. [ Ah. That makes sense. So we actually created the drug problem here, on our own. Simple economics - supply and demand. We created the demand and the supply is coming through the border. Wouldn’t solving the demand problem be an effective way to address the issue? Even if we change the immigration laws, the drug issue will stand on its own and not disappear. -- We hadn't had a serious heroin problem in this country since the 1970's until this. I Googled and found this. Heroin Epidemics in the US: Round One was 1898-1914. Heroin was over-the-counter and the users were mostly middle-aged women from rural areas. Round Two was 1970-1978. Heroin use and sale were linked with urban crime and the users were mostly young men. Round Three is now. It's "in the context of massive use of prescription opioids". There have been profound improvements in the distribution of a heroin that is more potent and far cheaper.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 1, 2018 0:55:33 GMT
So I’m not sure how effective the wall would be as a drug deterrent when drugs are already being brought in other ways. It's something significant. Alone, it's not enough. My late husband was a Coastie. I have nothing but mad respect for them.
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Post by mom26 on Jul 1, 2018 1:46:08 GMT
That bouncy facility is able to keep the children front and center in importance not through their laxness but through careful admittance practices. Bears repeating, leftturnonly. I, for one, feel it is necessary that unaccompanied children and potentially trafficked children (of which there are thousands) are being safe-placed until a vetted family member can be located. If one truly cares about the children, this should be your concern, too.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 1, 2018 3:36:53 GMT
The practice of separating as necessary for safety reasons is not the same thing as the policy of separating every family, every time. And yet, the girl on the cover of Time who was used to "represent" was not separated from her mother.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2018 3:40:28 GMT
Jun 19, 2018 (11 days ago) PunditFact
Our ruling
Schlapp said the Trump administration’s policy of separating families is "the same way Barack Obama did it." Obama’s immigration policy specifically sought to avoid breaking up families. While some children were separated from their parents under Obama, this was relatively rare, and occurred at a far lower rate than under Trump, where the practice flows from a zero tolerance approach to illegal border-crossings. We rate this False.
June 29, 2018 (yesterday) NBC News: Child Separations Started In October 2016Though the title correctly cites 2017 as the start date of the official zero tolerance "pilot program," the subtitle makes clear that the true start date for the separation of migrant children from their parents was actually 2016: "The numbers show the government was separating migrant kids from their parents back in 2016 and 2017," reads the subtitle. The Left: Trump is Hitler. Because pictures of Trump keeping kids in cages. What world do we live in, this isn't America. OOPS. Turns out the pics were from Obama. The Left's answer: Oh. But, but, but. Well, it's different when Obama does it. Those were unaccompanied minors. Now it's okay the kids were in cages, because Obama didn't separate families. Trump is separating families. That makes Trump Hitler. This is getting scary. OOPS. Turns out Obama separated families too under the Alien Transfer Exit Program. The Left's answer: Oh. Cite your source. Oh. He didn't do it as much. It's different when Obama did it. HE had a good reason. You're lying. But, but, but. Now it doesn't matter if families were separated because Obama didn't have a Zero Tolerance policy. Trump started a Zero Tolerance policy. That makes Trump Hitler. Now i AM scared, I'm moving to Canada. OOPS. Turns out that policy started under Obama. The Left's answer: We've been over this. He didn't do it as much. It's different when Obama did it. He had a good reason. You're too stupid to understand. But, but, but. Weeeell, it's okay if it started under Obama, because he didn't lose kids. Trump Lost kids. That makes Trump Hitler and we're officially terrified. OOPS. Turns out kids were let go to human traffickers under Obama. The Left's answer: Well, it turns out it really isn't about the kids after all. It's about making sure the Republicans "know they are not welcome anywhere in these United States of America". The Right has left us no choice. We're going to start riots and assault Republican politicians and their families like Auntie Maxine told us too. Let's go march against separating families! OOPS. Turns out Trump stopped that practice. Head to the gasoline stations to riot! Artist After being asked to leave 3 places for wearing a MAGA hat & the Sarah Sanders incident, he found both chilling, "I created these signs to remind people that this has happened before and we should never forget." And thank you for showing us exactly how you would've reacted had your “reliable news sources” actually been reliable and reported what was actually going on under Obama to the extent they report about what’s going on under Trump. Defending, excusing, deflecting justifying and dismissing. As usual. No hateful news reports. No hateful "comedy". No hateful magazine covers. No marches. No rioting and assault on behalf of the children. None of that when Obama does it.
#walkaway
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Post by dewryce on Jul 1, 2018 3:56:36 GMT
The practice of separating as necessary for safety reasons is not the same thing as the policy of separating every family, every time. And yet, the girl on the cover of Time who was used to "represent" was not separated from her mother. Yes, it appears Time was wrong about what was happening in that particular photo, they definitely made a mistake. But there are thousands of children who have been needlessly separated from their parents, and we know how devastating it has been for each of them. I'm not sure what that Time cover has to do with what Merge wrote.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 1, 2018 3:58:58 GMT
And yet, the girl on the cover of Time who was used to "represent" was not separated from her mother. Yes, it appears Time was wrong about what was happening in that particular photo, they definitely made a mistake. But there are thousands of children who have been needlessly separated from their parents, and we know how devastating it has been for each of them. I'm not sure what that Time cover has to do with what Merge wrote. It wasn't every family every time.
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Post by dewryce on Jul 1, 2018 4:13:12 GMT
Yes, it appears Time was wrong about what was happening in that particular photo, they definitely made a mistake. But there are thousands of children who have been needlessly separated from their parents, and we know how devastating it has been for each of them. I'm not sure what that Time cover has to do with what Merge wrote. It wasn't every family every time. It was every family that didn't cross at the approved gates, and even some that were not breaking any laws only trying to ask for asylum. I think we can all agree that even one child separated from their parents for any reason other than their safety is one too many. Her point still stands, they were being separated for different reasons. Originally under Obama, much less often and only as needed to protect the children, then with this administration, very frequently and as a deterrent. Time being wrong about why that particular little girl was crying doesn't make these points any less true.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2018 4:19:51 GMT
The practice of separating as necessary for safety reasons is not the same thing as the policy of separating every family, every time. And yet, the girl on the cover of Time who was used to "represent" was not separated from her mother. That crying child was a symbol of what is happening to thousands of kids and the person responsible is trump. So actually the cover was spot on . A country is defined by how we treat those within our borders. Especially these kids and the way they are being punished.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2018 4:22:34 GMT
It wasn't every family every time. It was every family that didn't cross at the approved gates, and even some that were not breaking any laws only trying to ask for asylum. I think we can all agree that even one child separated from their parents for any reason other than their safety is one too many. Her point still stands, they were being separated for different reasons. Originally under Obama, much less often and only as needed to protect the children, then with this administration, very frequently and as a deterrent. Time being wrong about why that particular little girl was crying doesn't make these points any less true. Both administrations claimed deterrence as a reason. And the practice under Obama of sending fathers 1000s of miles from where they entered the US, into dangerous crime-ridden areas they weren't familiar with and they specifically were seen as enemies isn't for safety reasons.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2018 4:25:46 GMT
And yet, the girl on the cover of Time who was used to "represent" was not separated from her mother. That crying child was a symbol of what is happening to thousands of kids and the person responsible is trump. So actually the cover was spot on . A country is defined by how we treat those within our borders. Especially these kids and the way they are being punished. Convenient.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 1, 2018 4:34:42 GMT
It was every family that didn't cross at the approved gates, and even some that were not breaking any laws only trying to ask for asylum. That is not what she said, though. Just as the crying child did not actually represent children who were separated from their parents through this new implementation of policy. The actual facts are bad enough. Embellishments are distracting and prone to unneeded controversy.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 1, 2018 4:42:42 GMT
@mytnice - I'm not sure how many people will read your 2nd to last post on this thread, since so many are happy to tell us all that you are on ignore, but those are the reactions that I have seen.
Along with 15 hundred reasons why.
ETA - General you - Please don't make comments about my observations. I get it. You don't agree, as if one person's observations are up for disagreement.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2018 4:48:58 GMT
That crying child was a symbol of what is happening to thousands of kids and the person responsible is trump. So actually the cover was spot on . A country is defined by how we treat those within our borders. Especially these kids and the way they are being punished. Convenient. . You don’t think those kids feel that they are being punished for something. Especially the younger ones?
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Post by dewryce on Jul 1, 2018 5:00:56 GMT
It was every family that didn't cross at the approved gates, and even some that were not breaking any laws only trying to ask for asylum. That is not what she said, though. Just as the crying child did not actually represent children who were separated from their parents through this new implementation of policy. The actual facts are bad enough. Embellishments are distracting and prone to unneeded controversy. In the context of that conversation I had the impression she was speaking about the policies of the two administrations. In the case of Trump it is the zero tolerance policy, arrest every person trying to cross illegally, every time. So if a child is with them they will be separated every time under the current administration. With Obama, there was no such policy in place for those crossing illegally. The only policy to separate children from their families was for the protection of the children. I agree with your last sentence, but don't feel like that is what was happening here.
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Post by dewryce on Jul 1, 2018 5:08:59 GMT
And yet, the girl on the cover of Time who was used to "represent" was not separated from her mother. That crying child was a symbol of what is happening to thousands of kids and the person responsible is trump. So actually the cover was spot on .A country is defined by how we treat those within our borders. Especially these kids and the way they are being punished. It was, but because they represented what was happening incorrectly it is now being used as a distraction from the real issue. That of the inhumane policies of separating families as a deterrent, and no executable plans for reuniting them. People (general) who don't want to acknowledge and discuss what their party is doing are using this as a talking point instead.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 1, 2018 7:26:25 GMT
No, Donald Trump’s separation of immigrant families was not Barack Obama’s policy By John Kruzel on Tuesday, June 19th, 2018 at 7:32 a.m. In this photo provided by U.S. Customs and Border Protection, people who’ve been taken into custody related to cases of illegal entry into the United States, sit in one of the cages at a facility in McAllen, Texas, June 17, 2018. (via AP) Critics of the Trump administration’s separating of families illegally crossing the U.S. border with Mexico have characterized the practice as a distinctly cruel feature of Donald Trump’s presidency. (a) But some Republican commentators argue the policy is essentially a continuation of previous administrations. "You know what's ironic? It's the same way Barack Obama did it," conservative commentator Matt Schlapp said during the June 15 broadcast of Fox News' America's Newsroom. "This is the problem with all of these things, the outrage you see coming from the left. There wasn't outrage over Barack Obama separating kids from adults." While the Obama administration's immigration approach was not without controversy, it’s simply untrue to say he had a policy of separating families. (b) Trump policy Let’s recap what the Trump administration is doing, before turning to Obama’s handling of immigration. Attorney General Jeff Sessions in April announced a "zero-tolerance" policy, meaning every person caught crossing the border illegally would be referred for federal prosecution.(c) A good number of these people are adult migrants traveling with children. By law, when adults are detained and criminally prosecuted, their children cannot be housed with them in jail. (d) Instead, kids are placed in a Department of Health and Human Services shelter until they can be released to a legal guardian. Some 2,000 children have been separated from the adults they were traveling with across the U.S. border, according to the latest figures from the Department of Homeland Security. The children were separated from 1,940 adults from April 19 through May 31 as a result of border-crossing prosecutions. (e) Obama policy Immigration experts we spoke to said Obama-era policies did lead to some family separations (f), but only relatively rarely, and nowhere near the rate of the Trump administration. (A Department of Homeland Security spokeswoman said the Obama administration did not count the number of families separated at the border.) (g) "Obama generally refrained from prosecution in cases involving adults who crossed the border with their kids," said Peter Margulies, an immigration law and national security law professor at Roger Williams University School of Law.(h) "In contrast, the current administration has chosen to prosecute adult border-crossers, even when they have kids. That's a choice — one fundamentally different from the choice made by both Obama and previous presidents of both parties." Denise Gilman, a law professor who directs the immigration clinic at the University of Texas School of Law, said immigration attorneys "occasionally" saw separated families under the Obama administration.(i) "However, these families were usually reunited quite quickly once identified," she said, "even if that meant release of a parent from adult detention."(j) In Trump’s case, family separations are a feature, not a bug, of the administration’s border policies, said David Fitzgerald, who co-directs the Center for Comparative Immigration Studies. "The family separations are not the small-scale collateral consequences of a border policy, but rather, a deliberate initiative," he added. (k) Former Obama officials in recent interviews drew sharp distinctions between Trump’s policy and that of his predecessors. The Trump administration's current approach is modeled after Operation Streamline, a 2005 program under the administration of George W. Bush, according to Obama spokesman Eric Schultz. The key difference, he said, is that while the 2005 program referred all illegal immigrants for prosecution, it made exceptions for adults traveling with children. Jeh Johnson, Obama’s Homeland Security secretary from 2013 to the end of his presidency, said such separations occurred in rare cases, but never as a matter of policy. "I can't say that it never happened. There may have been some exigent situation, some emergency," Johnson told NPR June 9. "There may have been some doubt about whether the adult accompanying the child was in fact the parent of the child. I can't say it never happened — but not as a matter of policy or practice. It's not something that I could ask our Border Patrol or our immigration enforcement personnel to do." (l) Obama’s top domestic policy adviser, Cecilia Muñoz, said the Obama administration briefly weighed the separation of parents from children, before deciding against it. "I do remember looking at each other like, ‘We’re not going to do this, are we?’ We spent five minutes thinking it through and concluded that it was a bad idea," she told the New York Times. "The morality of it was clear — that’s not who we are." Andrew Selee, president of the Migration Policy Institute, said that, as a deterrent, the Obama administration began prosecuting border-crossers who had already been deported at least once.
"But very few of those people crossed with children, so it didn’t become as visible an issue," he said. (m) "There was some child separation and some pushback by immigrant advocacy groups around that, but the numbers were quite limited. "The idea of prosecuting people who cross the border illegally the first time they are caught is entirely new," he added. "So we haven’t seen children separated from their parents on anything near this scale before." (n) The Obama administration’s immigration policy was not without controversy, to be sure.
In 2014, amid an influx of asylum seekers from Central America, the administration established large family detention centers to hold parents and children — potentially indefinitely — as a means of deterring other asylees. The practice eventually lost a legal challenge, resulting in a 2016 decision that stopped families from being detained together.
Schlapp told us that his claim referred to the fact that both Obama and Trump are bound by the same procedures prohibiting family detention. (o) However, Schlapp’s full comment gives the misleading impression that Trump is essentially continuing Obama’s policy, when in fact Trump’s zero tolerance policy is quite different. Our ruling Schlapp said the Trump administration’s policy of separating families is "the same way Barack Obama did it." Obama’s immigration policy specifically sought to avoid breaking up families. While some children were separated from their parents under Obama, this was relatively rare, and occurred at a far lower rate than under Trump, where the practice flows from a zero tolerance approach to illegal border-crossings. We rate this False. A Distinctly Different Feature Under Trump that is Cruel, the separation of families crossing illegally into America: a) Critics of the Trump administration’s separating of families illegally crossing the U.S. border with Mexico have characterized the practice as a distinctly cruel feature of Donald Trump’s presidency. b) While the Obama administration's immigration approach was not without controversy, it’s simply untrue to say he had a policy of separating families. f) Obama policy Immigration experts we spoke to said Obama-era policies did lead to some family separations ... Families were separated under Obama's administration.g) but only relatively rarely ... (A Department of Homeland Security spokeswoman said the Obama administration did not count the number of families separated at the border.) Relatively rarely is subjective and not a percentage quantifiably backed up with fact.i) Denise Gilman, a law professor who directs the immigration clinic at the University of Texas School of Law, said immigration attorneys "occasionally" saw separated families under the Obama administration. Families were separated under Obama's administration.l) "I can't say that it never happened. There may have been some exigent situation, some emergency," Johnson told NPR June 9. "There may have been some doubt about whether the adult accompanying the child was in fact the parent of the child. I can't say it never happened — but not as a matter of policy or practice. It's not something that I could ask our Border Patrol or our immigration enforcement personnel to do." And in the same respect, there remains doubt of the adults that accompany children to the border. No attempt has been made to differentiate these children from those coming in with their true families.m) Andrew Selee, president of the Migration Policy Institute, said that, as a deterrent, the Obama administration began prosecuting border-crossers who had already been deported at least once. "But very few of those people crossed with children, so it didn’t become as visible an issue," he said. It wasn't much of a deterrent if adults were then released to be with the children. Very few is another subjective amount that is not quanitfied. It did become a method to exploit to allow easier entry into the country, and this statement does not take that fact into account. ***Zero Tolerance - a deterrent as well a law:c) Attorney General Jeff Sessions in April announced a "zero-tolerance" policy, meaning every person caught crossing the border illegally would be referred for federal prosecution. e) Some 2,000 children have been separated from the adults they were traveling with across the U.S. border, according to the latest figures from the Department of Homeland Security. The children were separated from 1,940 adults from April 19 through May 31 as a result of border-crossing prosecutions. Where is the breakdown of who these children were separated from? Not all of these children were separated from the arms of their loving families.h) "Obama generally refrained from prosecution in cases involving adults who crossed the border with their kids," said Peter Margulies, an immigration law and national security law professor at Roger Williams University School of Law. And thus an opportunity was found to exploit children by bringing them to the border and then dumping them once easier entry into the US was made. ***j) "However, these families were usually reunited quite quickly once identified," she said, "even if that meant release of a parent from adult detention." Thereby setting up a system that was more easily exploitable. Once the parent and child were settled within the US, they could legally send for family that didn't get through the detention process.
k) "The family separations are not the small-scale collateral consequences of a border policy, but rather, a deliberate initiative," he added. Do not try to enter the country illegally with children. You will be held accountable for your actions and children will be separated from you while you are being detained.n) "The idea of prosecuting people who cross the border illegally the first time they are caught is entirely new," he added. "So we haven’t seen children separated from their parents on anything near this scale before." A primary reason that Trump was elected was to curtail illegal immigration. Illegally entering the country has been by definition illegal for a very long time. Prosecution is not determined by those who are breaking our laws. People who break those laws should not depend on the prosecution (or lack thereof) of our laws at any other point in time other than when they attempted to break our laws. This was the enforced law when they made the attempt. The Law Created to Protect Children from being detained with adults:d) A good number of these people are adult migrants traveling with children. By law, when adults are detained and criminally prosecuted, their children cannot be housed with them in jail. The ACLU brought lawsuits that accused DHS of holding children in prison-like conditions in detention with their families in violation of the Flores Agreement. Many immigrants' rights groups claimed the Flores Agreement applied to families in detention with their children. In 2015, a California federal district judge issued a ruling dismissing the Obama Administration's claim that Flores did not apply to children with their parents. Children could no longer be legally detained with their families who were awaiting action for illegally entering the country. (see o) for link)o) In 2014, amid an influx of asylum seekers from Central America, the administration established large family detention centers to hold parents and children — potentially indefinitely — as a means of deterring other asylees. The practice eventually lost a legal challenge, resulting in a 2016 decision that stopped families from being detained together. Schlapp told us that his claim referred to the fact that both Obama and Trump are bound by the same procedures prohibiting family detention. True.Let's go back to something written in 2015 for a more accurate idea of what was happening at the time. General Googling brings recent interpretations to the top of the long list of responses. What You Need to Know: Immigrant Family Detention, by Lazaro Zamora, Thursday, August 27, 2015 I will print this out in a following post.
*** I heard border patrol discussing the number of children they have picked up who were dropped in the desert after being used to gain easier entry into the US. Google results are nearly uniform in the results I'm able to bring up quickly and I haven't yet found any links.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 1, 2018 7:29:23 GMT
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 1, 2018 9:30:26 GMT
A country is defined by how we treat those within our borders. How about the way we treat our own citizens and legal immigrants who own property and live along the border with their families? Do we care about what they, through no fault of their own, are subjected to through the actions of those entering the country illegally? Do we care how many who cross illegally die after they cross the border in their quest for a better life? 60 Minutes - Human Smuggling Across the Southern BorderThere's a war going on in lands south of us. People are desperate. Desperate people are prey to terrible abuse and that is exactly what is happening on their way into the US. We can't fight their war(s) at our border and have anyone win. Our border is not the source of the problem. The utter corruption within the home countries of so many illegal immigrants is where the trouble begins. If we weren't paying such a heavy toll within our own country for the violence that accompanies those who traffick human souls and illegal drugs, we'd be having an entirely different national conversation than the one we've been having since before Ronald Reagan became our president. But we are. The people within this country are struggling. Gang violence and heroin addictions touch more people in more walks of life than ever before. The trouble with those particular problems is how quickly they spread. While gangs are more contained, heroin distribution is not. I hadn't personally heard of anyone using heroin since the late 1970's. As of the summer of 2017, I can't say that any more. If you don't know what it is to have drug addiction within your own family, you are among a shrinking population. If you haven't heard of someone who has died within the last several years from heroin, you are in a shrinking population. ABC News - Part 1: Baltimore is the US Heroin Capital The Economist - Heroin in PhiladelphiaCincinnati Enquirer - Seven Days of Heroin. This is what an epidemic looks like.Excluding Alaska, the United States has approximately 3,987 miles to cover. The length of the US-Mexican border is roughly 1,933 miles. We can't devote all of our resources for our southern border to illegal immigration. US bound drugs
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Post by cade387 on Jul 1, 2018 10:07:13 GMT
No, Donald Trump’s separation of immigrant families was not Barack Obama’s policy By John Kruzel on Tuesday, June 19th, 2018 at 7:32 a.m. In this photo provided by U.S. Customs and Border Protection, people who’ve been taken into custody related to cases of illegal entry into the United States, sit in one of the cages at a facility in McAllen, Texas, June 17, 2018. (via AP) Critics of the Trump administration’s separating of families illegally crossing the U.S. border with Mexico have characterized the practice as a distinctly cruel feature of Donald Trump’s presidency. (a) But some Republican commentators argue the policy is essentially a continuation of previous administrations. "You know what's ironic? It's the same way Barack Obama did it," conservative commentator Matt Schlapp said during the June 15 broadcast of Fox News' America's Newsroom. "This is the problem with all of these things, the outrage you see coming from the left. There wasn't outrage over Barack Obama separating kids from adults." While the Obama administration's immigration approach was not without controversy, it’s simply untrue to say he had a policy of separating families. (b) Trump policy Let’s recap what the Trump administration is doing, before turning to Obama’s handling of immigration. Attorney General Jeff Sessions in April announced a "zero-tolerance" policy, meaning every person caught crossing the border illegally would be referred for federal prosecution.(c) A good number of these people are adult migrants traveling with children. By law, when adults are detained and criminally prosecuted, their children cannot be housed with them in jail. (d) Instead, kids are placed in a Department of Health and Human Services shelter until they can be released to a legal guardian. Some 2,000 children have been separated from the adults they were traveling with across the U.S. border, according to the latest figures from the Department of Homeland Security. The children were separated from 1,940 adults from April 19 through May 31 as a result of border-crossing prosecutions. (e) Obama policy Immigration experts we spoke to said Obama-era policies did lead to some family separations (f), but only relatively rarely, and nowhere near the rate of the Trump administration. (A Department of Homeland Security spokeswoman said the Obama administration did not count the number of families separated at the border.) (g) "Obama generally refrained from prosecution in cases involving adults who crossed the border with their kids," said Peter Margulies, an immigration law and national security law professor at Roger Williams University School of Law.(h) "In contrast, the current administration has chosen to prosecute adult border-crossers, even when they have kids. That's a choice — one fundamentally different from the choice made by both Obama and previous presidents of both parties." Denise Gilman, a law professor who directs the immigration clinic at the University of Texas School of Law, said immigration attorneys "occasionally" saw separated families under the Obama administration.(i) "However, these families were usually reunited quite quickly once identified," she said, "even if that meant release of a parent from adult detention."(j) In Trump’s case, family separations are a feature, not a bug, of the administration’s border policies, said David Fitzgerald, who co-directs the Center for Comparative Immigration Studies. "The family separations are not the small-scale collateral consequences of a border policy, but rather, a deliberate initiative," he added. (k) Former Obama officials in recent interviews drew sharp distinctions between Trump’s policy and that of his predecessors. The Trump administration's current approach is modeled after Operation Streamline, a 2005 program under the administration of George W. Bush, according to Obama spokesman Eric Schultz. The key difference, he said, is that while the 2005 program referred all illegal immigrants for prosecution, it made exceptions for adults traveling with children. Jeh Johnson, Obama’s Homeland Security secretary from 2013 to the end of his presidency, said such separations occurred in rare cases, but never as a matter of policy. "I can't say that it never happened. There may have been some exigent situation, some emergency," Johnson told NPR June 9. "There may have been some doubt about whether the adult accompanying the child was in fact the parent of the child. I can't say it never happened — but not as a matter of policy or practice. It's not something that I could ask our Border Patrol or our immigration enforcement personnel to do." (l) Obama’s top domestic policy adviser, Cecilia Muñoz, said the Obama administration briefly weighed the separation of parents from children, before deciding against it. "I do remember looking at each other like, ‘We’re not going to do this, are we?’ We spent five minutes thinking it through and concluded that it was a bad idea," she told the New York Times. "The morality of it was clear — that’s not who we are." Andrew Selee, president of the Migration Policy Institute, said that, as a deterrent, the Obama administration began prosecuting border-crossers who had already been deported at least once.
"But very few of those people crossed with children, so it didn’t become as visible an issue," he said. (m) "There was some child separation and some pushback by immigrant advocacy groups around that, but the numbers were quite limited. "The idea of prosecuting people who cross the border illegally the first time they are caught is entirely new," he added. "So we haven’t seen children separated from their parents on anything near this scale before." (n) The Obama administration’s immigration policy was not without controversy, to be sure.
In 2014, amid an influx of asylum seekers from Central America, the administration established large family detention centers to hold parents and children — potentially indefinitely — as a means of deterring other asylees. The practice eventually lost a legal challenge, resulting in a 2016 decision that stopped families from being detained together.
Schlapp told us that his claim referred to the fact that both Obama and Trump are bound by the same procedures prohibiting family detention. (o) However, Schlapp’s full comment gives the misleading impression that Trump is essentially continuing Obama’s policy, when in fact Trump’s zero tolerance policy is quite different. Our ruling Schlapp said the Trump administration’s policy of separating families is "the same way Barack Obama did it." Obama’s immigration policy specifically sought to avoid breaking up families. While some children were separated from their parents under Obama, this was relatively rare, and occurred at a far lower rate than under Trump, where the practice flows from a zero tolerance approach to illegal border-crossings. We rate this False. A Distinctly Different Feature Under Trump that is Cruel, the separation of families crossing illegally into America: a) Critics of the Trump administration’s separating of families illegally crossing the U.S. border with Mexico have characterized the practice as a distinctly cruel feature of Donald Trump’s presidency. b) While the Obama administration's immigration approach was not without controversy, it’s simply untrue to say he had a policy of separating families. f) Obama policy Immigration experts we spoke to said Obama-era policies did lead to some family separations ... Families were separated under Obama's administration.g) but only relatively rarely ... (A Department of Homeland Security spokeswoman said the Obama administration did not count the number of families separated at the border.) Relatively rarely is subjective and not a percentage quantifiably backed up with fact.i) Denise Gilman, a law professor who directs the immigration clinic at the University of Texas School of Law, said immigration attorneys "occasionally" saw separated families under the Obama administration. Families were separated under Obama's administration.l) "I can't say that it never happened. There may have been some exigent situation, some emergency," Johnson told NPR June 9. "There may have been some doubt about whether the adult accompanying the child was in fact the parent of the child. I can't say it never happened — but not as a matter of policy or practice. It's not something that I could ask our Border Patrol or our immigration enforcement personnel to do." And in the same respect, there remains doubt of the adults that accompany children to the border. No attempt has been made to differentiate these children from those coming in with their true families.m) Andrew Selee, president of the Migration Policy Institute, said that, as a deterrent, the Obama administration began prosecuting border-crossers who had already been deported at least once. "But very few of those people crossed with children, so it didn’t become as visible an issue," he said. It wasn't much of a deterrent if adults were then released to be with the children. Very few is another subjective amount that is not quanitfied. It did become a method to exploit to allow easier entry into the country, and this statement does not take that fact into account. ***Zero Tolerance - a deterrent as well a law:c) Attorney General Jeff Sessions in April announced a "zero-tolerance" policy, meaning every person caught crossing the border illegally would be referred for federal prosecution. e) Some 2,000 children have been separated from the adults they were traveling with across the U.S. border, according to the latest figures from the Department of Homeland Security. The children were separated from 1,940 adults from April 19 through May 31 as a result of border-crossing prosecutions. Where is the breakdown of who these children were separated from? Not all of these children were separated from the arms of their loving families.h) "Obama generally refrained from prosecution in cases involving adults who crossed the border with their kids," said Peter Margulies, an immigration law and national security law professor at Roger Williams University School of Law. And thus an opportunity was found to exploit children by bringing them to the border and then dumping them once easier entry into the US was made. ***j) "However, these families were usually reunited quite quickly once identified," she said, "even if that meant release of a parent from adult detention." Thereby setting up a system that was more easily exploitable. Once the parent and child were settled within the US, they could legally send for family that didn't get through the detention process.
k) "The family separations are not the small-scale collateral consequences of a border policy, but rather, a deliberate initiative," he added. Do not try to enter the country illegally with children. You will be held accountable for your actions and children will be separated from you while you are being detained.n) "The idea of prosecuting people who cross the border illegally the first time they are caught is entirely new," he added. "So we haven’t seen children separated from their parents on anything near this scale before." A primary reason that Trump was elected was to curtail illegal immigration. Illegally entering the country has been by definition illegal for a very long time. Prosecution is not determined by those who are breaking our laws. People who break those laws should not depend on the prosecution (or lack thereof) of our laws at any other point in time other than when they attempted to break our laws. This was the enforced law when they made the attempt. The Law Created to Protect Children from being detained with adults:d) A good number of these people are adult migrants traveling with children. By law, when adults are detained and criminally prosecuted, their children cannot be housed with them in jail. The ACLU brought lawsuits that accused DHS of holding children in prison-like conditions in detention with their families in violation of the Flores Agreement. Many immigrants' rights groups claimed the Flores Agreement applied to families in detention with their children. In 2015, a California federal district judge issued a ruling dismissing the Obama Administration's claim that Flores did not apply to children with their parents. Children could no longer be legally detained with their families who were awaiting action for illegally entering the country. (see o) for link)o) In 2014, amid an influx of asylum seekers from Central America, the administration established large family detention centers to hold parents and children — potentially indefinitely — as a means of deterring other asylees. The practice eventually lost a legal challenge, resulting in a 2016 decision that stopped families from being detained together. Schlapp told us that his claim referred to the fact that both Obama and Trump are bound by the same procedures prohibiting family detention. True.Let's go back to something written in 2015 for a more accurate idea of what was happening at the time. General Googling brings recent interpretations to the top of the long list of responses. What You Need to Know: Immigrant Family Detention, by Lazaro Zamora, Thursday, August 27, 2015 I will print this out in a following post.
*** I heard border patrol discussing the number of children they have picked up who were dropped in the desert after being used to gain easier entry into the US. Google results are nearly uniform in the results I'm able to bring up quickly and I haven't yet found any links.
Do you believe everyone coming to the border is crossing illegally? It seems as though you don’t believe in asylum, or that it is a legal way to cross the border.
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Post by Merge on Jul 1, 2018 12:05:26 GMT
That is not what she said, though. Just as the crying child did not actually represent children who were separated from their parents through this new implementation of policy. The actual facts are bad enough. Embellishments are distracting and prone to unneeded controversy. In the context of that conversation I had the impression she was speaking about the policies of the two administrations. In the case of Trump it is the zero tolerance policy, arrest every person trying to cross illegally, every time. So if a child is with them they will be separated every time under the current administration. With Obama, there was no such policy in place for those crossing illegally. The only policy to separate children from their families was for the protection of the children. I agree with your last sentence, but don't feel like that is what was happening here. Maybe we could stick with "the actual facts are bad enough" instead of nitpicking, because the nitpicking makes it sound like y'all don't think the actual facts are bad enough. You'd rather pick at me. Trump's stated policy is "ZERO tolerance." The intention is to detain and separate every family crossing the border without regard to asylum claim, even if they don't quite get all of them. I guess my question is this: if what is happening now is exactly the same as what was happening under Obama, why are there thousands of children being detained only now? We know that illegal immigration is actually down, so it's not a sudden huge influx of people. Obviously, something changed. What was it?
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Deleted
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Nov 23, 2024 23:41:28 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2018 4:32:49 GMT
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Post by artgirl1 on Jul 2, 2018 11:01:54 GMT
It wasn't every family every time. ONE family separated is too many. One family held hostage due to this policy is too many. Don't you have a moral compass?
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Deleted
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Nov 23, 2024 23:41:28 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2018 15:06:32 GMT
oh geeze.
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Jul 2, 2018 15:48:33 GMT
Burnett also has reported that some families are not being allowed to request asylum — that they are being repeatedly turned away and told the CBP facility is too full to accept them. Nielsen has denied that some asylum-seekers who present themselves at a port of entry are being turned away, which would be a violation of international law."We are saying we want to take care of you in the right way. Right now we do not have the resources at this particular moment in time. Come back," she said. these two things sure sound the same to me!! None of these concerns matter if we can't tell one child from another. This is exactly the kind of thing that makes me want a secure border sooner than later. That bouncy facility is able to keep the children front and center in importance not through their laxness but through careful admittance practices. ^^^ leftturnonly said this, not redhead32-- I respectfully disagree with you. The way I interpreted the story about the bouncy house and it's policies, it's not careful *admittance* practices on the part of the bouncy house, it sounds like careful RECORDKEEPING practices.
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Post by Merge on Jul 2, 2018 16:00:46 GMT
You're confusing it with the New York Times. Also, that's not a news article, it's an opinion piece. Even the Times includes conservative opinion pieces. Media Bias/Fact Check shows the New York Post with a center-right bias and only mixed factual reporting. I wouldn't consider it a reliable source of news! I try to stick with sources rated high on factual reporting.
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Post by dewryce on Jul 2, 2018 16:50:54 GMT
Burnett also has reported that some families are not being allowed to request asylum — that they are being repeatedly turned away and told the CBP facility is too full to accept them. Nielsen has denied that some asylum-seekers who present themselves at a port of entry are being turned away, which would be a violation of international law."We are saying we want to take care of you in the right way. Right now we do not have the resources at this particular moment in time. Come back," she said. these two things sure sound the same to me!! None of these concerns matter if we can't tell one child from another. This is exactly the kind of thing that makes me want a secure border sooner than later. That bouncy facility is able to keep the children front and center in importance not through their laxness but through careful admittance practices. ^^^ leftturnonly said this, not redhead32-- I respectfully disagree with you. The way I interpreted the story about the bouncy house and it's policies, it's not careful *admittance* practices on the part of the bouncy house, it sounds like careful RECORDKEEPING practices. Regarding the first quote, I agree, they are effectively the same. And I'd like to state that I'm sure the "come back" message was always given, and always given in a sincere and compassionate manner. /s As to the second, yes technically the the admittance practices helped. But as you said, only because they were part of a broader picture. Good record keeping practices were strictly enforced because the bouncy place placed children's safety and being reunited with their parents at a higher priority than the US Government does. It was their biggest priority and everything they did throughout the facility attested to that.
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