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Post by mom26 on Jun 8, 2018 15:04:00 GMT
Can someone help me try to understand the tariff disputes?
I keep seeing graphs showing how much the US gets charged by Canada, Mexico, Germany, etc. vs. what the US charges them. One that keeps standing out to me is Canada charges the US a 270% tariff on dairy. WHY?
I've heard little bits of the Macron/Trudeau press conference, and Macron makes a comment that the US doesn't mind being isolated, or something similar. Have any of these countries explained WHY we're getting charged so much more? On the surface it would seem those countries aren't willing to make it fair for the US. Sure seems like their priorities are their own countries first. 
What am I not understanding?
That's pretty much my understanding, too. I haven't had a chance to really dive into it, though, so I'm sure there is more to it. |
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Post by bazinga on Jun 8, 2018 15:10:55 GMT
(CNN)President Donald Trump says he wants to meet with NFL players and athletes who kneel during the National Anthem so they can recommend people they think should be pardoned because they were treated unfairly by the justice system. "I'm going to ask them to recommend to me people who were unfairly treated," Trump said at the White House Friday. The President said during the wide-ranging gaggle that he would consider pardoning or commuting the sentences of those recommended. He also floated a pardon for posthumous boxing great Muhammad Ali. Certainly sounds like he's open to addressing some of their concerns. I wonder if any of them will take him up on his offer. You bring a Trump topic to this thread, immediately after Scrubologist and #notLauren got on jeremyswife and julee's asses about discussing Trump and not conservative ideas, but they don't get on your case for it? The irony is strong on this thread. Also, I hope he is legitimate in his claims to investigate and pardon those who are truly wrongfully convicted. That's certainly not an area in which I've felt our previous president's have taken an interest. No one got on jeremysgirl or Julee for discussing Trump. Jeremysgirl was nice and respectful. Julee's post was not about Trump, it was solely to poke at #notlauren. JustT's post was aggressive. Scrubologist just pointed out that you can post about conservative/republican/libertarian topics without bashing Trump. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 15:14:13 GMT
I may be in the minority here, but I absolutely do not mind liberals coming here to discuss. Jeremysgirl, please don't leave (at least on my part). There ARE liberals who are perfectly willing to have a discussion without baiting or having to refer to Trump as the Spawn of Satan. In my opinion, we'll never solve anything if we can't discuss issues.
Where the problem arises is when they come here simply to inform us they hate every molecule of Trump's body. We KNOW that! It is very, very clear on all the other threads. That simply isn't helpful in any scenario. Might make them feel superior or something, but it solves nothing. I agree, that I as a conservative, want a respectful kind of thread where we can discuss issues dear to us without being bashed. But if a liberal comes here and takes part in the discussion without a "oh you are so wrong" attitude, then I warmly welcome them. I feel bad when I see us suggesting that NONE of them are welcome. That's not my own feeling. Come on in, I say. But could we leave the discussion of Trump's appearance outside the door (I have no interest in whether or not his hands are tiny or not, etc.). Can't we just discuss the pros and cons of issues and actually LISTEN to each other. Sigh. Probably hoping for Nirvana here. Probably can't happen.  |
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Post by dewryce on Jun 8, 2018 15:29:56 GMT
Being involved in the process? What process? This is a a gesture to make him look like he is doing something, nothing more. This will impact a handful of people, who have already been violated, not address the real issue of police brutality to make real changes for the future. Why is the onus to bring about "real, true impact" on police brutality being put on NFL players...and NOT on people in our government whose actual job it is to protect its citizens? They are doing what they can by using their voices in the most impactful way they can. Okay, so they've used their voices and have everyone's attention. Now what? The 'process' has to start somewhere, and if you say it's the government's job, then the president inviting them to bring specific cases/people to his attention seems like not a bad place to start. I hope it's not your position that 'if they can't 100% fix the problem (and bring back the dead) in one motion, then any step at all in that direction is pointless'. That's extremely shortsighted. Now people in charge need to make real change happen. The players have done their part and the responsibility to take it further shouldn't be put on them. It's not their job so I don't see the point in calling them out to make a "real, true impact." I think we should be calling out our politicians instead. What is the saying, something about starting how you mean to continue? Why start the process with a gesture that will impact a small number of people instead of starting it by loudly and publically acknowledging that there is a real problem that needs to be addressed? Instead of lessening the players' impact by bringing the discussion back to their kneeling time and time again, taking their lead and bringing the topic of police brutality to the forefront. Show you are serious, start by making changes that will impact the future. No, I don't think that way. But I am really tired of politicians making very public displays like this with hot topics in order to look good, like they're doing something...and then never addressing the real issues. And this particular politician did just that recently so this gesture seems self-serving and hollow, for lack of a better word. |
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Post by peatlejuice on Jun 8, 2018 15:32:14 GMT
You bring a Trump topic to this thread, immediately after Scrubologist and #notLauren got on jeremyswife and julee's asses about discussing Trump and not conservative ideas, but they don't get on your case for it? The irony is strong on this thread. Also, I hope he is legitimate in his claims to investigate and pardon those who are truly wrongfully convicted. That's certainly not an area in which I've felt our previous president's have taken an interest. No one got on jeremysgirl or Julee for discussing Trump. Jeremysgirl was nice and respectful. Julee's post was not about Trump, it was solely to poke at #notlauren. JustT's post was aggressive. Scrubologist just pointed out that you can post about conservative/republican/libertarian topics without bashing Trump. To be specific, Scrubologist said "without talking about Trump" (shouted it, if you consider caps to be shouting). So which is it? As the current leader of the Republican party, most conservative political topics are going to come back to Trump in some way, shape or form. So is it okay to bring him up when discussing those ideas (even if that means talking about he may or may be well representing those ideas)? Or is truly less of a conservative ideas thread and more of a pro-Trump thread, as suggested when #notLauren said, "This thread is clearly not for someone who's not a Trump supporter." The collective you has already lost one moderate conservative from your thread because of this disconnect. |
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Post by dewryce on Jun 8, 2018 15:33:29 GMT
You bring a Trump topic to this thread, immediately after Scrubologist and #notLauren got on jeremyswife and julee's asses about discussing Trump and not conservative ideas, but they don't get on your case for it? The irony is strong on this thread. Also, I hope he is legitimate in his claims to investigate and pardon those who are truly wrongfully convicted. That's certainly not an area in which I've felt our previous president's have taken an interest. No one got on jeremysgirl or Julee for discussing Trump. Jeremysgirl was nice and respectful. Julee's post was not about Trump, it was solely to poke at #notlauren. JustT's post was aggressive. Scrubologist just pointed out that you can post about conservative/republican/libertarian topics without bashing Trump.No, she specifically referenced not talking about him. It was in all caps so I remember that part. |
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Post by delilahtwo on Jun 8, 2018 15:36:38 GMT
Can someone help me try to understand the tariff disputes?
I keep seeing graphs showing how much the US gets charged by Canada, Mexico, Germany, etc. vs. what the US charges them. One that keeps standing out to me is Canada charges the US a 270% tariff on dairy. WHY?
I've heard little bits of the Macron/Trudeau press conference, and Macron makes a comment that the US doesn't mind being isolated, or something similar. Have any of these countries explained WHY we're getting charged so much more? On the surface it would seem those countries aren't willing to make it fair for the US. Sure seems like their priorities are their own countries first.
What am I not understanding?
That's pretty much my understanding, too. I haven't had a chance to really dive into it, though, so I'm sure there is more to it. As a Canadian (and liberal too), here's my take on it. The US subsidizes their dairy industry so much that American consumers pay just a fraction of the true cost of dairy (milk, cheese, ice cream etc.). If we did not charge those tariffs, our market would be flooded with cheap American dairy and all of our producers would go out of business because we don't subsidize them nearly as much. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 15:38:46 GMT
Scrupologist said:
"It is possible to talk about conservative/republican/libertarian ideas and politics WITHOUT TALKING ABOUT TRUMP.
I believe my OP began with a linked article to that very effect.
Give it a whirl." (Bold is mine.)
She didn't say DO NOT talk about Trump.
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Post by bazinga on Jun 8, 2018 16:02:40 GMT
There is a big difference between discussing someone's event, policy, idea, or action and bashing someone. For example, if someone said "Trump announced that the US is going to ban hats," you can discuss how you agree or disagree with the ban, how you feel about hats, would it include helmets, can you own a hat and not wear it, let's have a hat parade in front of the White House, etc, without attacking him and/or all Republicans/conservatives.
I would this a Trump neutral thread.
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Post by gmcwife1 on Jun 8, 2018 16:09:03 GMT
I want to say that I am pretty much a libertarian in my views. There are things both conservative and liberal I've agreed with and disagreed with. Yesterday I posted a thread on the recreational marijuana proposal in Michigan. Republicans in our state have been trying to circumvent this for this election cycle and the last but it finally looks like it is going to be on the ballot. I would love to hear the viewpoint of conservatives on this issue so I invite you over to my thread. No pressure. The reason I didn’t post in your pot thread is because I’m not a conservative. But it’s also because when someone posts an opinion it ends up being a never ending cycle of but why, but why do you feel that way, but why do you think that, but why . . . I don’t like the color red, does that mean I have to explain why I don’t like the color red? Why? Why do you like green but not red, they are both colors. This is the type of ongoing grilling that I’m not interested in  I voted no to legalizing pot. I also voted no on moving our liquor sales to grocery stores. One of the reasons was that I feel that the government mismanages our money. I feel they say the specific taxes associated with theses changes will go to places/programs we want (schools, programs, etc), but they don’t. Sometimes I vote no, because I don’t support the issue as written. If it doesn’t pass then hopefully they will re-write it closer to how I can support it. Just because I’ve voted no for something doesn’t mean I do or don’t support the issue. It might mean I just don’t support what’s specifically on the ballot at that time or as written. |
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Post by gmcwife1 on Jun 8, 2018 16:16:19 GMT
That's pretty much my understanding, too. I haven't had a chance to really dive into it, though, so I'm sure there is more to it. As a Canadian (and liberal too), here's my take on it. The US subsidizes their dairy industry so much that American consumers pay just a fraction of the true cost of dairy (milk, cheese, ice cream etc.). If we did not charge those tariffs, our market would be flooded with cheap American dairy and all of our producers would go out of business because we don't subsidize them nearly as much. This is where I get confused It feels like it’s ok for other countries to look out for themselves, but when the US does it then it’s wrong. It feels like this was the same principle behind the steel tariffs. |
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Post by peatlejuice on Jun 8, 2018 16:16:19 GMT
Scrupologist said: " It is possible to talk about conservative/republican/libertarian ideas and politics WITHOUT TALKING ABOUT TRUMP. I believe my OP began with a linked article to that very effect. Give it a whirl." (Bold is mine.) She didn't say DO NOT talk about Trump. And what I'm telling you is tjat as long as he is the figurehead of the administration, he is inevitably going to come up, especially for the moderates this thread claims to be courting (because there are real concerns about how he executes conservative topics). But as soon as someone mentions Trump, unless it's in a very "rah-rah MAGA" kind of way, they get jumped on and harassed. Even the ones who have simply expressed doubt or concern (not bashing) have been shut down or made to feel they weren't welcome. For better or worse, the collective your actions on this thread indicate it's not really a conservative ideas thread at all, but a pro-Trump thread. And that's fine if that's what you want it to be, I'm just trying to make it clear for all the other independents/moderates out there who might be considering participating. If that's not what you want it to be, then you'll need to use the "sandbox" for more than hiding your head and allow for true discussion, even if it means critical analysis of Trump and his administration. |
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Post by delilahtwo on Jun 8, 2018 16:19:53 GMT
As a Canadian (and liberal too), here's my take on it. The US subsidizes their dairy industry so much that American consumers pay just a fraction of the true cost of dairy (milk, cheese, ice cream etc.). If we did not charge those tariffs, our market would be flooded with cheap American dairy and all of our producers would go out of business because we don't subsidize them nearly as much. This is where I get confused It feels like it’s ok for other countries to look out for themselves, but when the US does it then it’s wrong. It feels like this was the same principle behind the steel tariffs. Most industries aren't subsidized to the extent the dairy industry is in the US. We Canadians can't afford to subsidize our industry like your country does. Your dairy industry has an unfair advantage over our dairy industry because they are subsidized so much. Our steel isn't subsidized like your dairy is. Does that help at all? |
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Post by gmcwife1 on Jun 8, 2018 16:22:49 GMT
Have a fabulous Friday everyone, I’m off to spend the day working a dog agility trial. Get to spend the day watching dogs and their handlers having fun jumping, weaving and sometimes running off course Now to get my rear off the couch and into the shower!!  My dd and her dog practicing agility a couple years ago. |
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Post by lisacharlotte on Jun 8, 2018 16:23:08 GMT
Well said gmcwife1. There are times when I can’t or won’t explain/justify my disagreement or dislike of something. It may be too personal to post publicly, it may be an irrational bias or even a core belief that others don’t share. We all have individual experiences that shape our views. I don’t like pot and don’t particularly like being around stoned people no matter what they are taking. I don’t plan on supporting legalization. For me that issue is removed from medical (and I’m not talking bullshit medical prescriptions for people who just want to get high legally). I don’t care about studies or anecdotes that claim smoking is no different than drinking (it is) or trying to drag in legal medication to the discussion. To me it brings nothing good to society so I don’t support it as recreation. |
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Post by delilahtwo on Jun 8, 2018 16:24:23 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 16:25:36 GMT
That's pretty much my understanding, too. I haven't had a chance to really dive into it, though, so I'm sure there is more to it. As a Canadian (and liberal too), here's my take on it. The US subsidizes their dairy industry so much that American consumers pay just a fraction of the true cost of dairy (milk, cheese, ice cream etc.). If we did not charge those tariffs, our market would be flooded with cheap American dairy and all of our producers would go out of business because we don't subsidize them nearly as much. Interesting. I wonder if the low tariffs the US charges on Canadian imports has an impact on the US dairy farmers then?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 16:31:58 GMT
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Post by Tamhugh on Jun 8, 2018 16:35:53 GMT
Did you miss the part where I was specifically asked “what do you think” or this Trying to fix bizzarre quote problem - will delete other post if this works: Yes we know that you want to know what we think of whatever incendiary thing Trump is currently doing. If we were interested in commenting, we would have no issue joining the Trump outrage thread. This thread is annoying not because liberals would like to participate. It's annoying because liberals come here demanding to know what we think of Trump - ready to attack our lack of Trump outrage. This isn't the Trump thread. I'm not sure why that's so hard to understand. I have no trouble understanding the preoccupation with Trump. I do have trouble understanding the inability to discuss ANYTHING political without Trump's latest tweet or history of bad behavior being brought into the discussion and being bombarded with continued demand for our outrage. ETA - and I'm not even a particularly good conservative or libertarian - let alone Republican. I don't fit in any box and I think there's been more than one incident of a conservative pea calling me out as a RINO - which I'm also not as I'm not a Republican. Sorry for a quick liberal hijack, but Darcy Collins, the things that apparently annoy other peas is what I like about your posts. You have a common sense approach that I enjoy reading. Carry on. |
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Post by jeremysgirl on Jun 8, 2018 16:36:54 GMT
I am not a liberal. I recommended in a post on this thread Ron Paul's book, Revolution. I can't imagine the liberals on this board stating that they agree with his thoughts. But I am not a Trump supporter. I voiced my concerns about him representing us in talks with North Korea. Then the posts followed about posting about conservative topics without talking about Trump (Scrubologist) and not posting if you're not a Trump supporter (notLauren). I make it my mission not to be rude. But you guys have got to decide just what you want from this thread. There are too many mixed messages. And there are a lot of people, like me; people who you used to be able to count on voting Republican who are now feeling very excluded from politics. And if you don't care to participate in my threads or answer my questions, that's up to you. I don't care either way. I didn't put anyone down on this thread. And I tried to discuss it as gently as I could because the fact is, I didn't even want to discuss here due to the fact that this thread tries to have a protective vibe. |
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Post by Darcy Collins on Jun 8, 2018 16:43:15 GMT
This is where I get confused It feels like it’s ok for other countries to look out for themselves, but when the US does it then it’s wrong. It feels like this was the same principle behind the steel tariffs. Most industries aren't subsidized to the extent the dairy industry is in the US. We Canadians can't afford to subsidize our industry like your country does. Your dairy industry has an unfair advantage over our dairy industry because they are subsidized so much. Our steel isn't subsidized like your dairy is. Does that help at all? I tried to find some data on how the subsidies for US vs Canadian dairy farmers are - and I think your description is overly simplistic. Canada has an absolutely protectionist stance on their dairy industry and even internally through quotas to manipulate the market which is only possible if imports are severely limited - hence the 270% tariff. The "US subsidies" based on a Canadian research report are primarily based on considering SNAP - which is our program for food subsidies for the poor as a subsidy to dairy. A few articles: www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/rob-commentary/canadas-supply-management-system-for-dairy-is-no-longer-defensible/article36029788/This one is actually looking at specific changes that related to unfiltered milk, but has some background as well as what I think is a very honest comment from Trudeau: Trudeau responded to the U.S. criticism in an April 20 interview with Bloomberg News, saying: “Let’s not pretend we’re in a global free market when it comes to agriculture. Every country protects, for good reason, its agricultural industries.” www.factcheck.org/2017/04/u-s-canada-dairy-dispute/ |
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Post by Darcy Collins on Jun 8, 2018 16:51:59 GMT
As a Canadian (and liberal too), here's my take on it. The US subsidizes their dairy industry so much that American consumers pay just a fraction of the true cost of dairy (milk, cheese, ice cream etc.). If we did not charge those tariffs, our market would be flooded with cheap American dairy and all of our producers would go out of business because we don't subsidize them nearly as much. Interesting. I wonder if the low tariffs the US charges on Canadian imports has an impact on the US dairy farmers then?
We don't import hardly any dairy from Canada - they're quota system limits production to keep prices high - if you read my first link above, it's from a Canadian who wants to change that system so that they can export dairy. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 16:52:58 GMT
Most industries aren't subsidized to the extent the dairy industry is in the US. We Canadians can't afford to subsidize our industry like your country does. Your dairy industry has an unfair advantage over our dairy industry because they are subsidized so much. Our steel isn't subsidized like your dairy is. Does that help at all? I tried to find some data on how the subsidies for US vs Canadian dairy farmers are - and I think your description is overly simplistic. Canada has an absolutely protectionist stance on their dairy industry and even internally through quotas to manipulate the market which is only possible if imports are severely limited - hence the 270% tariff. The "US subsidies" based on a Canadian research report are primarily based on considering SNAP - which is our program for food subsidies for the poor as a subsidy to dairy. A few articles: www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/rob-commentary/canadas-supply-management-system-for-dairy-is-no-longer-defensible/article36029788/This one is actually looking at specific changes that related to unfiltered milk, but has some background as well as what I think is a very honest comment from Trudeau: Trudeau responded to the U.S. criticism in an April 20 interview with Bloomberg News, saying: “Let’s not pretend we’re in a global free market when it comes to agriculture. Every country protects, for good reason, its agricultural industries.”www.factcheck.org/2017/04/u-s-canada-dairy-dispute/ I wondered as much. Yet the criticism towards the US seems to be unending. |
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Post by Darcy Collins on Jun 8, 2018 16:53:32 GMT
Keep in mind this report is from Canadian dairy farmers who consider any money whatsoever including the US food assistance to the poor as a subsidy - definitely not unbiased. |
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Post by delilahtwo on Jun 8, 2018 16:53:42 GMT
Interesting. I wonder if the low tariffs the US charges on Canadian imports has an impact on the US dairy farmers then?
We don't import hardly any dairy from Canada - they're quota system limits production to keep prices high - if you read my first link above, it's from a Canadian who wants to change that system so that they can export dairy. And we wouldn't be able to export dairy to the US because your dairy industry is huge and vastly subsidized by the taxpayer. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 16:54:15 GMT
Interesting. I wonder if the low tariffs the US charges on Canadian imports has an impact on the US dairy farmers then?
We don't import hardly any dairy from Canada - they're quota system limits production to keep prices high - if you read my first link above, it's from a Canadian who wants to change that system so that they can export dairy. Thanks for the links. I'm gonna take some time to read them. |
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Post by Darcy Collins on Jun 8, 2018 17:00:51 GMT
I am not a liberal. I recommended in a post on this thread Ron Paul's book, Revolution. I can't imagine the liberals on this board stating that they agree with his thoughts. But I am not a Trump supporter. I voiced my concerns about him representing us in talks with North Korea. Then the posts followed about posting about conservative topics without talking about Trump (Scrubologist) and not posting if you're not a Trump supporter (notLauren). I make it my mission not to be rude. But you guys have got to decide just what you want from this thread. There are too many mixed messages. And there are a lot of people, like me; people who you used to be able to count on voting Republican who are now feeling very excluded from politics. And if you don't care to participate in my threads or answer my questions, that's up to you. I don't care either way. I didn't put anyone down on this thread. And I tried to discuss it as gently as I could because the fact is, I didn't even want to discuss here due to the fact that this thread tries to have a protective vibe. I figure it's a public message board, there will be posts on this thread from both sides that annoy me - if a topic looks interesting or I have an opinion, I'll post - if it goes sideways, I'll bow out - just like any other thread. |
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Post by bazinga on Jun 8, 2018 17:02:07 GMT
I am not a liberal. I recommended in a post on this thread Ron Paul's book, Revolution. I can't imagine the liberals on this board stating that they agree with his thoughts. But I am not a Trump supporter. I voiced my concerns about him representing us in talks with North Korea. Then the posts followed about posting about conservative topics without talking about Trump (Scrubologist) and not posting if you're not a Trump supporter (notLauren). I make it my mission not to be rude. But you guys have got to decide just what you want from this thread. There are too many mixed messages. And there are a lot of people, like me; people who you used to be able to count on voting Republican who are now feeling very excluded from politics. And if you don't care to participate in my threads or answer my questions, that's up to you. I don't care either way. I didn't put anyone down on this thread. And I tried to discuss it as gently as I could because the fact is, I didn't even want to discuss here due to the fact that this thread tries to have a protective vibe. You have been very nice and respectful in your posts. My understanding is that this thread was created in an attempt to stop the arguing on all sides. I think most of us are fine if you mention the name Trump, it's the continuous bashing that gets annoying. I disagree with #notlauren about this thread being just for Trump supporters. I don't think there are too many people here that are really pro-Trump, I think most just tolerate him and hope he does more good than bad (which is how I feel about all politicians). I don't understand why some posters are posting here to complain about this thread. If you don't like it, don't read it. (Wasn't that the conclusion of the political board debate?) I haven't opened any of the anti-Trump threads because I know I won't like it. |
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Post by Darcy Collins on Jun 8, 2018 17:02:44 GMT
We don't import hardly any dairy from Canada - they're quota system limits production to keep prices high - if you read my first link above, it's from a Canadian who wants to change that system so that they can export dairy. And we wouldn't be able to export dairy to the US because your dairy industry is huge and vastly subsidized by the taxpayer. You can't overlook that you use a quota system to severely limit supply creating an artificial, high priced market - well you can - but it's truly just one side of the story. I guarantee you if you took away quotas, your prices would drop. |
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Post by delilahtwo on Jun 8, 2018 17:03:41 GMT
Keep in mind this report is from Canadian dairy farmers who consider any money whatsoever including the US food assistance to the poor as a subsidy - definitely not unbiased. yes. But the report also says that US dairy farmers are selling milk at a loss and have been doing so for over a decade. How are they staying in business then? As the daughter of a farmer in Canada (albeit not a dairy farmer, my friend grew up on a dairy farm and I spent a lot of time there as a kid), dairy farming is not cheap. The equipment is expensive, cows are expensive, it's fairly labour intensive, there are no days off..... US milk is extremely cheap and doesn't reflect the real costs. |
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