ravenmist23
Shy Member
Posts: 13
Jun 25, 2014 21:53:34 GMT
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Post by ravenmist23 on Jun 30, 2014 22:35:52 GMT
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jun 30, 2014 22:37:02 GMT
The company isn't discriminating against specific types of employees. Overtly? No. But by disparate impact? Absolutely. What prescription birth control methods are available to men? The fact that no method of prescription birth control exists for men is not the fault of Hobby Lobby. They can only respond to the options that do exist. Hobby Lobby itself isn't discriminating against women. They're discriminating against abortifacients.
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Post by I-95 on Jun 30, 2014 22:38:16 GMT
The words the court used were 'closely held corporations' intending to mean small family businesses. First of all, a small business is considered to be one with fewer than 100 employees....HL has a lot more than that. They are a family owned 'closely held' business.... but so is WalMart. Until fairly recently, so was U-Haul and our all time favorite....Facebook. Who is going to decide which companies are 'family' owned business and which are huge corporations? Under the court's definition, WalMart qualifies.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 20, 2024 4:14:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 22:39:14 GMT
EEO: General: What are disparate impact and disparate treatment? 4/20/2012 Disparate impact refers to policies, practices, rules, or other systems that appear to be neutral, but result in a disproportionate impact on protected groups. Disparate treatment is intentional. For example, testing a particular skill of African Americans only is disparate treatment. Testing all applicants and getting results from that test that eliminate African Americans disproportionately is disparate impact. Title VII prohibits intentional discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin and prohibits both “disparate treatment” and “disparate impact” discrimination.In cases of disparate treatment, employees or applicants must show that intentional discriminatory practices took place. In response, an employer must show a legitimate reason for the practice. - See more at: www.shrm.org/templatestools/hrqa/pages/disparateimpactdisparatetreatment.aspx#sthash.WyictDi3.dpuf
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RosieKat
Drama Llama
PeaJect #12
Posts: 5,535
Jun 25, 2014 19:28:04 GMT
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Post by RosieKat on Jun 30, 2014 22:40:04 GMT
This obviously isn't from an unbiased site (it's from Becket Fund), but I found the general breakdown of what happens next to be interesting. So I guess what it means is that Hobby Lobby and Conestoga's cases are decided, other private for-profit companies still have to have a (lower) court decide if they meet the specifications presumably set forth by SCOTUS, and nonprofits/charities are still not decided? I'm no legal expert in any way, so if anyone wants to chime in, please do.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 20, 2024 4:14:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 22:40:11 GMT
The words the court used were 'closely held corporations' intending to mean small family businesses. First of all, a small business is considered to be one with fewer than 100 employees....HL has a lot more than that. They are a family owned 'closely held' business.... but so is WalMart. Until fairly recently, so was U-Haul and our all time favorite....Facebook. Who is going to decide which companies are 'family' owned business and which are huge corporations? Under the court's definition, WalMart qualifies. The article I saw from Harvard Business Review said that approximately 90% of US businesses will fall under the closely held corporation definition. Link to HBR
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Post by justkallie on Jun 30, 2014 22:40:51 GMT
<<No, it was stating that a company who is paying for the lion's care of your health coverage, can be ETHICALLY or MORALLY opposed to paying for an elective medication. You still have a right to the medication. You just have to pay for it. If you are so opposed to having your company have a say in your healthcare, buy your own policy and pay for exactly what you want. No one but you will have a say in your care then.>> Um, nothing that you stated above has ANYTHING to do with what I posted. I mentioned absolutely nothing about coverage of birth control. I'm simply stating my discomfort at the notion that a corporation - of any size - can be considered equivalent to an individual. (Edited to make the "quote" part clearer - still figuring out how to quote on this board!) That ship sailed long ago when the Supreme Court recognized the rights of corporations as individuals YEARS ago...
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Post by rebelyelle on Jun 30, 2014 22:41:12 GMT
For those saying "just go to planned parenthood!". It's not that easy, even in bigger cities.
I live in a major metropolitan city (Arlington, VA just outside of DC). Just out of curiosity, I looked up the closet PP. It would take me 2 buses and a ride on the metro (about 45 minutes one way, including time to walk to the bus stop) plus a fare of $6-$9 each way (peak times are more expensive) to get to the closest one. Even harder? They are closed on Wednesday, Saturday and Sunday; one night a week they're open until 6:30, the other three days they close at 4. I can't imagine what a nightmare it would become if I were an hourly employee who need contraceptives to (a) afford the time to take off work to get to PP and (b) find it within my budget to both pay for transportation to PP, plus the cost of contraceptives.
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Post by rebelyelle on Jun 30, 2014 22:43:07 GMT
<<No, it was stating that a company who is paying for the lion's care of your health coverage, can be ETHICALLY or MORALLY opposed to paying for an elective medication. You still have a right to the medication. You just have to pay for it. If you are so opposed to having your company have a say in your healthcare, buy your own policy and pay for exactly what you want. No one but you will have a say in your care then.>> Um, nothing that you stated above has ANYTHING to do with what I posted. I mentioned absolutely nothing about coverage of birth control. I'm simply stating my discomfort at the notion that a corporation - of any size - can be considered equivalent to an individual. (Edited to make the "quote" part clearer - still figuring out how to quote on this board!) That ship sailed long ago when the Supreme Court recognized the rights of corporations as individuals YEARS ago... I didn't agree with it then, and I don't agree with it now.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 20, 2024 4:14:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 22:43:54 GMT
The words the court used were 'closely held corporations' intending to mean small family businesses. First of all, a small business is considered to be one with fewer than 100 employees....HL has a lot more than that. They are a family owned 'closely held' business.... but so is WalMart. Until fairly recently, so was U-Haul and our all time favorite....Facebook. Who is going to decide which companies are 'family' owned business and which are huge corporations? Under the court's definition, WalMart qualifies. No, it doesn't. "Closely held" doesn't have to do with the number of employees, it has to do with the number of owners or stockholders. From the IRS: Generally, a closely held corporation is a corporation that: Has more than 50% of the value of its outstanding stock owned (directly or indirectly) by 5 or fewer individuals at any time during the last half of the tax year; and Is not a personal service corporation. The definitions for the terms “directly or indirectly” and “individual” are in Publication 542, Corporations. A closely held corporation is subject to additional limitations in the tax treatment of items such as passive activity losses, at-risk rules, and compensation paid to corporate officers.
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joycekb
Shy Member
Posts: 18
Jun 30, 2014 20:14:03 GMT
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Post by joycekb on Jun 30, 2014 22:44:41 GMT
[/quote]]Would you like to add color, religion, ethnicity or sex to your argument as well?.[/quote]
Why not? I think the SCOTUS ruling today opened the door for all sorts of cherry picking when it comes to individual freedom, protected classes, and discrimination in the name of religious freedom. Why are you so confident that a constitutionally protected class will not become a target of a corporation's religious views?
Just repeat the last three words of the above sentence over and over until the absurdity of it sinks in.
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Post by I-95 on Jun 30, 2014 22:47:06 GMT
I'm not disputing that, I'm just pointing out that under the court's definition of a family owned business, WalMart qualifies, so it doesn't just effect little mom and pop companies, it covers the world's biggest corporation.
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Post by justkallie on Jun 30, 2014 22:48:19 GMT
For those saying "just go to planned parenthood!". It's not that easy, even in bigger cities. I live in a major metropolitan city (Arlington, VA just outside of DC). Just out of curiosity, I looked up the closet PP. It would take me 2 buses and a ride on the metro (about 45 minutes one way, including time to walk to the bus stop) plus a fare of $6-$9 each way (peak times are more expensive) to get to the closest one. Even harder? They are closed on Wednesday, Saturday and Sunday; one night a week they're open until 6:30, the other three days they close at 4. I can't imagine what a nightmare it would become if I were an hourly employee who need contraceptives to (a) afford the time to take off work to get to PP and (b) find it within my budget to both pay for transportation to PP, plus the cost of contraceptives. Take the MEtro into DC - there are two right downtown. This is kind of the uphill both ways argument. In fact, why don't you just go to walmart, and get one of their $9 monthly prescriptions for contraceptives and save the Metro and bus fare? i.walmartimages.com/i/if/hmp/fusion/customer_list.pdfor Caremark CVS - www.caremark.com/portal/asset/GE_CVSCaremark_ValuePricedGenerics_DL.pdfOr Walgreens - www.walgreens.com/psc/VPG_List_Update_10-15-2013.pdf
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Post by airforcemomof1 on Jun 30, 2014 22:49:49 GMT
Another one who thinks it's great. I agree.
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Post by rebelyelle on Jun 30, 2014 22:51:32 GMT
For those saying "just go to planned parenthood!". It's not that easy, even in bigger cities. I live in a major metropolitan city (Arlington, VA just outside of DC). Just out of curiosity, I looked up the closet PP. It would take me 2 buses and a ride on the metro (about 45 minutes one way, including time to walk to the bus stop) plus a fare of $6-$9 each way (peak times are more expensive) to get to the closest one. Even harder? They are closed on Wednesday, Saturday and Sunday; one night a week they're open until 6:30, the other three days they close at 4. I can't imagine what a nightmare it would become if I were an hourly employee who need contraceptives to (a) afford the time to take off work to get to PP and (b) find it within my budget to both pay for transportation to PP, plus the cost of contraceptives. Take the MEtro into DC - there are two right downtown. This is kind of the uphill both ways argument. In fact, why don't you just go to walmart, and get one of their $9 monthly prescriptions for contraceptives and save the Metro and bus fare? i.walmartimages.com/i/if/hmp/fusion/customer_list.pdf(A) - the location I referenced in my post above IS the downtown location. Please don't assume you know my town better than I do. (B) - to even GET to WalMart, I would need to take 2 buses and 1 metro, one-way.
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jayfab
Drama Llama
procastinating
Posts: 5,587
Jun 26, 2014 21:55:15 GMT
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Post by jayfab on Jun 30, 2014 22:52:32 GMT
I have been asked to give a statement to the press today. This is my official statement on the matter, as it concerns Texas women in particular: "Today's Supreme Court decision tells us that corporations are people but women are not. Employers no longer have to cover birth control and other reproductive medications in employee insurance plans. HB 2 has or will shutter all but six clinics where hard working Texas women could obtain these medications affordably. This means it is more important than ever for Texas women and men who care about Texas women to elect Wendy Davis and Leticia van de Putte this November. They will work hard to make sure that women, no matter how much they make, can access affordable health care services state wide." I wish I could give this a hundred likes!
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joycekb
Shy Member
Posts: 18
Jun 30, 2014 20:14:03 GMT
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Post by joycekb on Jun 30, 2014 22:54:18 GMT
FTR: My quoting skills on the new board suck! Today is my first day over here. Clumsily navigating my way around, as I also try and engage in this provocative thread.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 20, 2024 4:14:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2014 22:54:36 GMT
Any attack on the ability of women to control their own reproduction is an attack on all women. How to you think women have gotten as far as they have in this country? It's because of their ability to decide for themselves when they would or wouldn't have a child. Women should then think about the control of their reproductive rights BEFORE they had unprotected sex, if that's your argument. The morning after pill was never invented or manufactured as a form of birth control. And if someone's religious beliefs are such, that they believe that conception happens immediately, they are surely within their rights not to offer this to their employee's. No different than not offering abortions as part of their benefits.
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Post by justkallie on Jun 30, 2014 22:55:11 GMT
Take the MEtro into DC - there are two right downtown. This is kind of the uphill both ways argument. In fact, why don't you just go to walmart, and get one of their $9 monthly prescriptions for contraceptives and save the Metro and bus fare? i.walmartimages.com/i/if/hmp/fusion/customer_list.pdf(A) - the location I referenced in my post above IS the downtown location. Please don't assume you know my town better than I do. (B) - to even GET to WalMart, I would need to take 2 buses and 1 metro, one-way. Then please check the CVS or walgreens options. I can look up the other pharmacies as well if you need me to.
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Post by justkallie on Jun 30, 2014 22:56:39 GMT
(A) - the location I referenced in my post above IS the downtown location. Please don't assume you know my town better than I do. (B) - to even GET to WalMart, I would need to take 2 buses and 1 metro, one-way. Then please check the CVS or walgreens options. I can look up the other pharmacies as well if you need me to. Here's Target's, too... www.target.com/pharmacy/generics-condition
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Post by ingrid6 on Jun 30, 2014 22:57:20 GMT
Take the MEtro into DC - there are two right downtown. This is kind of the uphill both ways argument. In fact, why don't you just go to walmart, and get one of their $9 monthly prescriptions for contraceptives and save the Metro and bus fare? i.walmartimages.com/i/if/hmp/fusion/customer_list.pdf(A) - the location I referenced in my post above IS the downtown location. Please don't assume you know my town better than I do. (B) - to even GET to WalMart, I would need to take 2 buses and 1 metro, one-way. omgosh - seriously??? really, 2 buses and a metro? come step into my proposed $35,000 a year insurance shoes. That metro will look some kind of sweet.
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Post by justkallie on Jun 30, 2014 22:57:59 GMT
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Post by justkallie on Jun 30, 2014 22:59:08 GMT
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Post by rebelyelle on Jun 30, 2014 22:59:53 GMT
(A) - the location I referenced in my post above IS the downtown location. Please don't assume you know my town better than I do. (B) - to even GET to WalMart, I would need to take 2 buses and 1 metro, one-way. Then please check the CVS or walgreens options. I can look up the other pharmacies as well if you need me to. Honestly, are you being obtuse? How is a low-wage, hourly worker going to obtain a prescription to fill at said CVS or Walgreens without going to, you know, Planned Parenthood first? My whole point was that "just going to Planned Parenthood" isn't that easy. You can believe 1000000% that that's not the case, but it's simply not accurate.
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Post by M~ on Jun 30, 2014 23:00:13 GMT
Hmmmmmmmm.. can't say that I'm surprised at the ruling.
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Post by justkallie on Jun 30, 2014 23:01:30 GMT
Honestly, are you being obtuse? How is a low-wage, hourly worker going to obtain a prescription to fill at said CVS or Walgreens without going to, you know, Planned Parenthood first? My whole point was that "just going to Planned Parenthood" isn't that easy. You can believe 1000000% that that's not the case, but it's simply not accurate. Their doctor visit is still paid for, don't you get that? Nothing about today's ruling prevents them from seeing a doctors or receiving a prescription. IT WAS ONLY OVER WHO PAYS FOR THE PRESCRIPTION. If their insurance would pay for the visit before, it is still paid for now. I am not the obtuse one, rather I am the one that read the ruling.
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Post by rebelyelle on Jun 30, 2014 23:01:39 GMT
(A) - the location I referenced in my post above IS the downtown location. Please don't assume you know my town better than I do. (B) - to even GET to WalMart, I would need to take 2 buses and 1 metro, one-way. omgosh - seriously??? really, 2 buses and a metro? come step into my proposed $35,000 a year insurance shoes. That metro will look some kind of sweet. OMG, apples and oranges much? If you want to have a conversation about the exorbitant cost of healthcare, i'll show up any day of the week. Trust me, I know it's hard. Been there, done that, living it. And living without it too.
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Post by ingrid6 on Jun 30, 2014 23:05:18 GMT
omgosh - seriously??? really, 2 buses and a metro? come step into my proposed $35,000 a year insurance shoes. That metro will look some kind of sweet. OMG, apples and oranges much? If you want to have a conversation about the exorbitant cost of healthcare, i'll show up any day of the week. Trust me, I know it's hard. Been there, done that, living it. And living without it too. nice try - own your own business? pay $35 grand for health insurance? I seriously doubt it. you're complaining about buses and metro rides...
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Post by rebelyelle on Jun 30, 2014 23:11:12 GMT
OMG, apples and oranges much? If you want to have a conversation about the exorbitant cost of healthcare, i'll show up any day of the week. Trust me, I know it's hard. Been there, done that, living it. And living without it too. nice try - own your own business? pay $35 grand for health insurance? I seriously doubt it. you're complaining about buses and metro rides… My husband owns his own business. Like I said - been there, done that. But go ahead, be the almighty health insurance martyr. Be my guest. Are you a single mom, working two jobs, without a car, who makes $8.50/hour and needs to access to Planned Parenthood and can't figure out how get there? WHY does this have to be a pissing contest? It's bad for you, and it's bad for other people too. Yes, for some people, finding the money for a $12+ commute that takes 1.5 hours roundtrip, plus the time to see a doctor to get what you need, during your work hours, IS a huge struggle. It doesn't diminish the fact that YOU struggle too. Nobody's "winning" here.
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Post by justkallie on Jun 30, 2014 23:12:48 GMT
OMG, apples and oranges much? If you want to have a conversation about the exorbitant cost of healthcare, i'll show up any day of the week. Trust me, I know it's hard. Been there, done that, living it. And living without it too. nice try - own your own business? pay $35 grand for health insurance? I seriously doubt it. you're complaining about buses and metro rides... It the line of argument to bring up a scenario, not matter how ridiculous, to back an argument. The fact of the matter, at the end of the day. the ruling today did not prevent anyone from receiving a prescription for contraceptives at all. If you are covered by health insurance that includes a yearly to the GYN, you can go, have your visit and ask for a prescription. Now, depending on your employer, your prescription may or may not be covered, depending on what it was written for and what your policy covers. There are options for extremely inexpensive generics if you don't have prescription drug coverage and don't want to walk uphill both ways in the snow to planned parenthood.
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