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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 18:21:36 GMT
Better if they go buy even more so it can be a really impressive bonfire. You know, if it were layered, that would be so awesome. Say like go buy some books as the base, i.e. Handmaid's Tale, 1984, etc., then the Nike apparel, topped off with every k-cup their local stores had. That would totally show me how wrong I am. And I noticed in the burning pictures the Nike logo is prominent. Yeah, protesters are really hurting Nike. š It's not meant to hurt Nike monetarily, it's symbolic. |
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Post by tara on Sept 5, 2018 18:38:27 GMT
Perhaps this will finally shine a light on the ever widening military civilian divide in a country where so few actually serve, that a company as large as Nike wouldnāt see the problem with depicting an athlete losing his job as āsacrificing everythingā. This will probably not shine a brighter light on the issues Kaepernick is kneeling to draw attention to in the first place. There seems to be little coverage of the fundraising that is paired with the ad. And hopefully those outraged and wanting to destroy shoes/clothes and boycott Nike, will consider donating or purchasing a competitorsā products and donating them to a reputable veterans service organization. Actually your last sentence is a really good idea. Let them put their money where their mouth is. |
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Post by 950nancy on Sept 5, 2018 18:38:56 GMT
And I noticed in the burning pictures the Nike logo is prominent. Yeah, protesters are really hurting Nike. š It's not meant to hurt Nike monetarily, it's symbolic. I wonder if it will go the same way that Amazon went. Seems like things that Trump criticizes often take a hit and then go way up. Didn't Amazon just hit the one trillion mark? I realize that the two companies' situations are different, but people come out in support over things that Trump criticizes. There was an article this morning that millennials are buying the stock in abundance. Only time will tell. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 18:46:01 GMT
On the other hand Pat Tillmanās widow, Marie, made a statement when Trump escalated the situation. She said something to the effect of not to use Pats example and sacrifice to try to silence others. This is what Pat and others died for. So people has the freedom to do what kaepernick is doing. Also his biographer said he thought if Pat were here today he would be kneeling along side of kaepernick. Iām paraphrasing because I donāt know how do provide links but you can google. No one is denying his right or freedom to protest. That right doesn't automatically come with complete and utter agreement with his way of doing so. There are other ways he could have brought attention to the cause that would have many of the same people who disagree with his method now, fighting right along with him. Instead the cause is getting lost in disagreement. There are many ways he could have taken the focus to the charities that he works with that are fighting for the actual cause and brought as much awareness to them as he did to whether he should sit, stand or kneel. |
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Post by 950nancy on Sept 5, 2018 18:54:05 GMT
On the other hand Pat Tillmanās widow, Marie, made a statement when Trump escalated the situation. She said something to the effect of not to use Pats example and sacrifice to try to silence others. This is what Pat and others died for. So people has the freedom to do what kaepernick is doing. Also his biographer said he thought if Pat were here today he would be kneeling along side of kaepernick. Iām paraphrasing because I donāt know how do provide links but you can google. No one is denying his right or freedom to protest. That right doesn't automatically come with complete and utter agreement with his way of doing so. There are other ways he could have brought attention to the cause that would have many of the same people who disagree with his method now, fighting right along with him. Instead the cause is getting lost in disagreement. There are many ways he could have taken the focus to the charities that he works with that are fighting for the actual cause and brought as much awareness to them as he did to whether he should sit, stand or kneel. Always different ways, but would we still be talking about it two years later? I don't think he would have done it (or even had to have done it) if he thought everyone would agree with him. If they had, black lives would matter to all. I pray for the day he stops because he no longer feels he needs to do it, not because the President or any other person tells him not to do it. |
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PLurker
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Post by PLurker on Sept 5, 2018 19:01:50 GMT
No one is denying his right or freedom to protest. That right doesn't automatically come with complete and utter agreement with his way of doing so. There are other ways he could have brought attention to the cause that would have many of the same people who disagree with his method now, fighting right along with him. Instead the cause is getting lost in disagreement. There are many ways he could have taken the focus to the charities that he works with that are fighting for the actual cause and brought as much awareness to them as he did to whether he should sit, stand or kneel. Always different ways, but would we still be talking about it two years later? I don't think he would have done it (or even had to have done it) if he thought everyone would agree with him. If they had, black lives would matter to all. I pray for the day he stops because he no longer feels he needs to do it, not because the President or any other person tells him not to do it. Exactly. I (and many others) have said since the beginning I wish everyone stood for the anthem and flag. But because they want to. Not because they are forced to. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 19:04:27 GMT
No one is denying his right or freedom to protest. That right doesn't automatically come with complete and utter agreement with his way of doing so. There are other ways he could have brought attention to the cause that would have many of the same people who disagree with his method now, fighting right along with him. Instead the cause is getting lost in disagreement. There are many ways he could have taken the focus to the charities that he works with that are fighting for the actual cause and brought as much awareness to them as he did to whether he should sit, stand or kneel. Always different ways, but would we still be talking about it two years later? I don't think he would have done it (or even had to have done it) if he thought everyone would agree with him. If they had, black lives would matter to all. I pray for the day he stops because he no longer feels he needs to do it, not because the President or any other person tells him not to do it. We're only talking about whether he should sit, stand or kneel. That is in your face, an inescapable. Where is the information about the actual fight for the cause? Is the charity that is fighting the fight in your face? Known to those that disagree with his methods? No. They aren't even aware of it. |
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Post by tara on Sept 5, 2018 19:31:55 GMT
On the other hand Pat Tillmanās widow, Marie, made a statement when Trump escalated the situation. She said something to the effect of not to use Pats example and sacrifice to try to silence others. This is what Pat and others died for. So people has the freedom to do what kaepernick is doing. Also his biographer said he thought if Pat were here today he would be kneeling along side of kaepernick. Iām paraphrasing because I donāt know how do provide links but you can google. No one is denying his right or freedom to protest. That right doesn't automatically come with complete and utter agreement with his way of doing so. There are other ways he could have brought attention to the cause that would have many of the same people who disagree with his method now, fighting right along with him. Instead the cause is getting lost in disagreement. There are many ways he could have taken the focus to the charities that he works with that are fighting for the actual cause and brought as much awareness to them as he did to whether he should sit, stand or kneel.Ā You might have went another way but that was his call not yours or mine. how would you have went about it if you were in the public eye? He has given to charity and has volunteered but nobody like to talk about that. He decided to protest in his own way and his message did get out. The owners didnāt say much about it. Then Trump got his people into a frenzy. Now itās nothing but hatred. Itās not faced with disagreement but it escalated into flat out hatred. Why iyo so much hatred? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 20:03:56 GMT
No one is denying his right or freedom to protest. That right doesn't automatically come with complete and utter agreement with his way of doing so. There are other ways he could have brought attention to the cause that would have many of the same people who disagree with his method now, fighting right along with him. Instead the cause is getting lost in disagreement. There are many ways he could have taken the focus to the charities that he works with that are fighting for the actual cause and brought as much awareness to them as he did to whether he should sit, stand or kneel.Ā Ā I don't think he would have done it (or even had to have done it) if he thought everyone would agree with him. Ā If they had, black lives would matter to all. Ā I pray for the day he stops because he no longer feels he needs to do it, not because the President or any other person tells him not to do it. Ā Honesty in my opinion the only reason we are is because of the media. Not because of his efforts. In those 2 years I still don't know what he actually suppprts and where his money goes. All I know is who he is sueing and that it did or did not go to court. Take away the media aspect of this all and no one would would be talking about it. |
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PLurker
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Post by PLurker on Sept 5, 2018 20:13:47 GMT
Always different ways, but would we still be talking about it two years later? I don't think he would have done it (or even had to have done it) if he thought everyone would agree with him. If they had, black lives would matter to all. I pray for the day he stops because he no longer feels he needs to do it, not because the President or any other person tells him not to do it. Honesty in my opinion the only reason we are is because of the media. Not because of his efforts. In those 2 years I still don't know what he actually suppprts and where his money goes. All I know is who he is sueing and that it did or did not go to court. Take away the media aspect of this all and no one would would be talking about it.Or more directly, trump. Who escalated this and the media covered. He brought it into the spotlight to rally his supporters. Been one of his hot topic talking points many times at his rallies, on twitter etc. Yes, the media covers it. But more so in covering the POTUS, which is their job. |
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RosieKat
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Post by RosieKat on Sept 5, 2018 21:09:06 GMT
Itās certainly true that Colin Kaepernick has not sacrificed his life. But to be fair, Colin Kaepernick has never compared himself to members of our armed forces and Nike is not, in that ad, pitting him against the military. No, I agree that has not happened - but the simple fact is that the phrase "sacrificed everything" is automatically conflated with the military and death. Whether it should be or not is subject to opinion, but I do think that it's an automatic association. I don't think it was the best choice of words here, and that's coming from someone who supports him. They could have left it at "Even if it means sacrifice" and made the point better, I think. Of course, maybe not, maybe people would still get hung up on using the term sacrifice at all. But "sacrificing everything" means his very life, to me, and those I've talked with. |
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Post by hop2 on Sept 5, 2018 21:15:13 GMT
I think as a military widow she would have more respect for a military widowās wish that her deceased husbandās name not be used in political Arguments. Other than that she is entitled to her opinion just like everyone else is. |
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Post by christine58 on Sept 5, 2018 21:18:42 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 21:25:50 GMT
The term I heard when a person loses his or her life in the service of the country is that they made the ultimate sacrifice. Iāve always heard it referred that way.
The reality is people make sacrifices and even sacrifice everything to achieve a goal and it does not result in their death. Or anything close to that.
Since they are not using the term āultimate sacrifice ā I think the campaign is fine as is.
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Post by Zee on Sept 5, 2018 21:52:03 GMT
On the other hand Pat Tillmanās widow, Marie, made a statement when Trump escalated the situation. She said something to the effect of not to use Pats example and sacrifice to try to silence others. This is what Pat and others died for. So people has the freedom to do what kaepernick is doing. Also his biographer said he thought if Pat were here today he would be kneeling along side of kaepernick. Iām paraphrasing because I donāt know how do provide links but you can google. No one is denying his right or freedom to protest. That right doesn't automatically come with complete and utter agreement with his way of doing so. There are other ways he could have brought attention to the cause that would have many of the same people who disagree with his method now, fighting right along with him. Instead the cause is getting lost in disagreement. There are many ways he could have taken the focus to the charities that he works with that are fighting for the actual cause and brought as much awareness to them as he did to whether he should sit, stand or kneel. Had he chosen another way, you would probably not know who he is or care at all about his charities or what he is protesting. I wonder which people who disagree with him right now would actually be "fighting right along with him". And your statement makes it crystal clear that he would NOT have brought nearly as much attention and awareness had he never decided to kneel. He's making people uncomfortable and they seek to label him as anti-American to feel legitimized in their unwillingness to hear his message. The feeling I get from facebook is that he's committed the great crime of making white people uncomfortable and being "uppity". This is an excellent topic to bring over to the White Fragility thread. I'm certainly no race relations expert but I think when you are ready to SEE race in his protest, without being personally offended, greater strides could be made. |
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Post by gardengoddess on Sept 5, 2018 21:53:43 GMT
Pat Tillman's widow and family DO NOT want him to be used by conservatives in their attempt to vilify Colin or compare their sacrifices.
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trollie
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by trollie on Sept 5, 2018 22:01:49 GMT
It's very convenient to turn his peaceful protest against violence into an anti-military, anti-American stance. Takes the focus right off what he's actually protesting. Also interesting is Trump's newfound love of the military. Too bad he didn't love the military or the USA this much when he was dodging the draft. Or denigrating POWs. |
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Post by 950nancy on Sept 5, 2018 22:24:38 GMT
Always different ways, but would we still be talking about it two years later? I don't think he would have done it (or even had to have done it) if he thought everyone would agree with him. If they had, black lives would matter to all. I pray for the day he stops because he no longer feels he needs to do it, not because the President or any other person tells him not to do it. We're only talking about whether he should sit, stand or kneel. That is in your face, an inescapable. Where is the information about the actual fight for the cause? Is the charity that is fighting the fight in your face? Known to those that disagree with his methods? No. They aren't even aware of it. We have different definitions of inescapable. If it offends you, why would you watch what he played? I know I turn off the television when Trump plays his regular hits. |
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Post by 950nancy on Sept 5, 2018 22:30:26 GMT
Always different ways, but would we still be talking about it two years later? I don't think he would have done it (or even had to have done it) if he thought everyone would agree with him. If they had, black lives would matter to all. I pray for the day he stops because he no longer feels he needs to do it, not because the President or any other person tells him not to do it. Honesty in my opinion the only reason we are is because of the media. Not because of his efforts. In those 2 years I still don't know what he actually suppprts and where his money goes. All I know is who he is sueing and that it did or did not go to court. Take away the media aspect of this all and no one would would be talking about it.
āI am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color,ā Kaepernick told NFL Mediaafter Fridayās game. āTo me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder.ā
I believe he supports the flag standing/representing all races. This quote is from 2016. The other football players who choose to kneel are carrying out what he started. The fact that it makes people mad or uncomfortable is why we are still taking about it. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2018 3:11:11 GMT
Had he chosen another way, you would probably not know who he is or care at all about his charities or what he is protesting. If he HAD chosen another way to make people aware of the charities and the cause, we'd be talking about the charities and the cause. Instead we're still only talking about whether he should sit, stand or kneel. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2018 3:14:43 GMT
We're only talking about whether he should sit, stand or kneel. That is in your face, an inescapable. Where is the information about the actual fight for the cause? Is the charity that is fighting the fight in your face? Known to those that disagree with his methods? No. They aren't even aware of it. We have different definitions of inescapable. If it offends you, why would you watch what he played? I know I turn off the television when Trump plays his regular hits. I didn't say it offends me, I was using that to show the difference between most people don't know about his cause or what it even is, and how well everyone knows something about whether he should, sit, stand or kneel. |
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PLurker
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Post by PLurker on Sept 6, 2018 3:33:42 GMT
What other way specifically would you (general) suggest he protest for people to listen? Seriously, that is easy to say "if only".
Because many people have been trying many, many ways from the polite to screaming bloody murder and people are not listening.
We are talking about "sit, stand or kneel" for the same reason. People are not listening.
Sometimes I think the 'go protest elsewhere/another way' is just so it's not so in-your-face and can again be ignored.
(phew, glad they're gone/quiet)
Maybe if we keep talking, we will get tired of all the talking (arguing) and stop and listen.
One can hope.
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Post by freecharlie on Sept 6, 2018 3:41:48 GMT
Had he chosen another way, you would probably not know who he is or care at all about his charities or what he is protesting. If he HAD chosen another way to make people aware of the charities and the cause, we'd be talking about the charities and the cause. Instead we're still only talking about whether he should sit, stand or kneel. only certain people are talking about that. Protests are supposed to be fairly in your face. Often they make people uncomfortable or angry. If they didn't, no one would know about it. |
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Post by freecharlie on Sept 6, 2018 3:48:15 GMT
It's very convenient to turn his peaceful protest against violence into an anti-military, anti-American stance. Takes the focus right off what he's actually protesting. Yup. Admittedly, I have never understood the need for public flag reverence at sporting events (why not concerts, plays, movies?), but what is truly baffling is the insistence on interpreting any flag-based protest (actually, the athlete kneeling seems more like a mourning) as explicitly disrespecting veterans. Why donāt we recognize the myriad of other concepts equally represented in our ālogo,ā including equal opportunity and freedom from oppression...or even just plain freedom, our supposed dearest value, as this same flag flew over a slave nation, and weāre still dealing with the repercussions. Or not dealing, which is kind of the point.Ā I have no idea what manner of protest would be acceptable in such a politically charged Us Against Them climate. Because how can peopleās eyes be opened to systemic oppression when so many of them are suckling their own lopsided interpretation of oppression/persecution? addressing the flag at sporting, but not other events: The anthem starting being played at baseball games during world war II as a symbol of patriotism and unity. |
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Post by 950nancy on Sept 6, 2018 4:10:07 GMT
We have different definitions of inescapable. If it offends you, why would you watch what he played? I know I turn off the television when Trump plays his regular hits. I didn't say it offends me, I was using that to show the difference between most people don't know about his cause or what it even is, and how well everyone knows something about whether he should, sit, stand or kneel. The only people I know who don't really know what he stands for post memes on FB about his disrespect. Most of them get schooled by other posters. Very few people I know IRL don't know what he stands for. I like that he is protesting peacefully. I like that it is still in the news. |
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Gennifer
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Post by Gennifer on Sept 6, 2018 5:21:25 GMT
Frankly, I find wearing flag apparel far more disrespectful than kneeling.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2018 9:23:24 GMT
The term I heard when a person loses his or her life in the service of the country is that they made the ultimate sacrifice. Iāve always heard it referred that way. The reality is people make sacrifices and even sacrifice everything to achieve a goal and it does not result in their death. Or anything close to that. Since they are not using the term āultimate sacrifice ā I think the campaign is fine as is. I see it that way too. Sacrificing everything, to me and I guess many others globally, isn't associated with the military. It's a colloquialism, a figure of speech when you have lost your career,your home, your trust in someone, your dreams of the future and yes, money can come into it too. I find it difficult to believe that no one in the US has used this figure of speech at any time during their life when they have been faced with the same losses because of someone or something that has betrayed their belief or actions. CK, in a colloquial way, has lost everything, his career - there seems to have been a collective agenda to stop any other teams employing him, he's lost his trust in a country that doesn't treat everyone the same because of the colour of their skin, he's lost his dreams of being a career player, and has also affected him in a financial way. Yes, he has sacrificed everything pertaining to his future because of his belief in the injustice faced by people of colour and was willing to make that sacrifice to bring attention to that injustice IMO. Nike is a global corporation and use the same marketing/advertising slogans to cover all countries. In that respect I would expect them to use a phrase that was also generally in common use in the market they are covering. |
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Post by sabrinae on Sept 6, 2018 13:00:49 GMT
Yup. Admittedly, I have never understood the need for public flag reverence at sporting events (why not concerts, plays, movies?), but what is truly baffling is the insistence on interpreting any flag-based protest (actually, the athlete kneeling seems more like a mourning) as explicitly disrespecting veterans. Why donāt we recognize the myriad of other concepts equally represented in our ālogo,ā including equal opportunity and freedom from oppression...or even just plain freedom, our supposed dearest value, as this same flag flew over a slave nation, and weāre still dealing with the repercussions. Or not dealing, which is kind of the point.Ā I have no idea what manner of protest would be acceptable in such a politically charged Us Against Them climate. Because how can peopleās eyes be opened to systemic oppression when so many of them are suckling their own lopsided interpretation of oppression/persecution? addressing the flag at sporting, but not other events: The anthem starting being played at baseball games during world war II as a symbol of patriotism and unity. The military pays the NFL for the anthem and advertising. The players were never on the field during the anthem until the military started paying |
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lindas
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Post by lindas on Sept 6, 2018 15:01:15 GMT
addressing the flag at sporting, but not other events: The anthem starting being played at baseball games during world war II as a symbol of patriotism and unity. The military pays the NFL for the anthem and advertising. The players were never on the field during the anthem until the military started paying Not accurate. The anthem has been played at football games for decades and the players were on the field. The only time they weren't was during prime time games. That changed in 2009 to accommodate the networks scheduling. |
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Post by christine58 on Sept 6, 2018 15:05:59 GMT
A post on Facebook that resonates with me. Just sharing...
There was a picture of a very old faded Nike hat with this
Sherry Potter
Yesterday at 12:05 AM
Dear Nike,
I want to have a conversation about this hat. It's over 13 years old. I don't remember when I bought it exactly, I don't remember where I bought it. But what I do remember is why I wore it.
On August 10, 2005, I was a newlywed with two young sons. My husband Tim and I had toasted our one month anniversary the night before, and I was enjoying a rare evening to myself, catching up on reading and relishing the quiet. Until there was a knock on my door. I had no way of knowing that the small act of turning a knob was about to shatter my life into a million pieces. I sat numb and in sheer disbelief as I was told that my husband, while in a foot pursuit and subsequent struggle with a suspect that ended up in the road, had been struck and killed by an oncoming vehicle. He took his last breath lying in the middle of the street. What I lost in that moment is indescribable. I had to watch his mother be dealt the most agonizing blow a parent can face, and I couldn't comfort her because I was in my own hell. I had to find a way to gut my own children in the gentlest way possible, and tell them that this man they had come to love, who they looked up to, who cared for them as his own, would never walk through our door again.
I don't know if you've ever attended a police funeral, but watching grown men who've seen the absolute worst things a civilian can imagine, break down and sob over the casket of their brother is an image that never leaves you. The bagpipes haunt my dreams to this day, but it was the faces of my children, the innocence that abandoned them at such a tender age that brought me to my knees.
I had no choice but to move on. We trudged zombie-like through our days for weeks and weeks on end. I never left the house except to drive the boys to school, or buy food we barely touched. I realized that I had to do something. I had to move my body or I was going to crawl out of my own skin. So I put on the only cap I had and I went for a run. It was short, it hurt and it was ugly. But I felt, just for those few moments on that road, like a normal person. So I kept doing it. I put that hat on and I ran every day. Sometimes I had to stop and sit down because I was sobbing so hard. Sometimes I was so angry I ran until I thought I my heart would stop, sometimes I would just scream over and over again, but it still felt better than doing nothing.
That black cap became a symbol to me, it is sweat stained and it's shape is gone, the buckle in the back barely closes; but that hat represents my family's rise from the ashes. It stands for the strength and the sacrifice we made loving a man who had a job that we all knew could end his life, every time he walked out that door. And it did. And I accept that.
I still wear this hat, I wore it on my run this morning.
And then I heard about your new ad campaign.
Colin Kapernick has the absolute right to protest anything he damn well pleases. I don't dispute that for one second. My father, my husband and many, many friends have all served this country and were willing to fight for his right to kneel.
But that right goes both ways. I also have a right to express my disgust at your decision to portray him as some kind of hero. What, exactly has Colin Kapernick sacrificed? His multi million dollar paycheck...? Nope, you already gave him one of those. His reputation? No, he's been fawned over by celebrities and media alike. Funny, Tim Tebow was never called courageous when he knelt.
This man, whose contempt for law enforcement fits him like a...sock, has promoted an agenda that has been proven false time and time again, in study after study. But facts don't seem to matter anymore. This man has thrown his support behind divisive anti-police groups, and donated money directly to a fugitive from justice who escaped prison after killing a police officer. I question the judgement of anyone who would put someone this controversial and divisive at the head of an advertising campaign, but it isn't my company to run.
I don't know if I'll have he heart to ever get rid of this cap, but I will tell you this, I'll never purchase another Nike product as long as I live. You got this one wrong Nike, terribly, terribly wrong.
Sherry Graham-Potter, surviving spouse of Deputy Tim Graham
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