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Post by melodyesch on Mar 16, 2019 18:38:59 GMT
Thanks for the responses. I DO think my SIL has done a great job because of how niece is with other people. I just simply do NOT have a frame of reference for this attitude with her mother and it did really get to me and I blurted out something stupid. I don't remember my teenage relationship with my mother being combative and she's no longer here for me to ask. Things just get uncomfortable after a number of hours together when Niece is really nice and respectful to everyone else, but surly with her mother about EVERYTHING. But maybe it does have something to do with normal teenagers and Mom's being a place to exert some independence without retribution.
I do know my Niece has a deep love and general consideration for her mother. Recently, when she was with me, we were going to visit a cat cafe. I knew her Mom would love to go, but wasn't there. So I jokingly told Niece that we just wouldn't let her Mother know we went. Niece said, "I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to keep things from my mother." So yeah, I'll just zip it as much as possible.
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kate
Drama Llama
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Jun 26, 2014 3:30:05 GMT
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Post by kate on Mar 16, 2019 19:15:05 GMT
I don't think it was bad that you spoke up. Niece may be so involved in the power dynamic between herself and her mom, she forgets that others in the room can see that she's acting like a jerk.
I have been in a similar situation (different cast of characters), and my own reaction was that my eyebrows flew up, and I gave the kid an "Are you kidding me?!" look. I'm not proud that I responded without thinking, but I am glad that at least the kid knew I was shocked.
I don't often hear grownups say just "No" to a reasonable request made by someone they value. If you're at all polite, you'd say, "I'm sorry, I'm in the middle of an important email; can you wait 2 or 3 minutes?" or "I'm so sorry, but my foot is giving me a lot of pain. Could someone else give you a hand?"
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anaterra
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Jun 29, 2014 3:04:02 GMT
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Post by anaterra on Mar 16, 2019 19:29:54 GMT
I did say earlier to bite ur tongue... but I can think back to several times where I have told my niece hey cut it out... stop being a jerk to ur mom... or even now with my grandkids.. who btw are not even teenagers yet... where I will say get up n do what ur mom asked.. stop complaining.. something... just because like jeremysgirl said sometimes a different person saying it gets a different reaction than mom... it won't be a bad blow out if I say it...
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Post by freecharlie on Mar 16, 2019 19:56:49 GMT
I've only read a handful of posts, but I call bullshit on typical behavior.
Saying no is typical. Letting them get away with it is not.
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Post by ameslou on Mar 16, 2019 21:07:17 GMT
I have a 15yo daughter. Your SIL is choosing her battles, and this one isn’t worth it to her. I may be in the minority, but I think it’s great that you spoke up when they were in your home. Teens can be blind to the way their actions are perceived by others.
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Post by Really Red on Mar 16, 2019 21:32:49 GMT
Ugh. I have raised two girls who are just past teenagerhood. At their absolute worst, they would not have said "no" to me for those requests.
1. I think your SIL is making a mistake. While I 100% to pick and choose battles, simple respect is not one that I'd back down on. My son barely spoke from 14-16, but if I asked for something (and THAT is where I picked what I asked), he said "Yes, mom" and did it. I did not ask a ton of things, because I didn't want things to be a battle, but if he EVER - I mean freaking ever! - said no to me when we were with others, I just cannot even imagine. I honestly cannot think of what I would have done. One of my daughters' head spun 360 and still she would have done something if I asked. Mind you, I would absolutely not have asked if her head was spinning at the time.
2. You probably should not have said anything. That said, if your BIL wasn't there, I think you can speak up because you're backup, essentially. If both your SIL and BIL were there, then they have the one-two punch available and chose not to use it.
3. Respect is a big one for me, so your example hit me hard. I think it's a big mistake what the parents are doing. Either setting their daughter up to say "no" or letting her say "no" with no consequences. Stomping feet, slamming doors, anger are all things that are more "normal" for teenagers. It sounds like your niece is calm and reasoned when she says no and that would bother me, too. ALL that said, I have seen hundreds of poor parenting choices and seen those kids grow up to be great adults. I am absolutely certain that people disagreed with my parenting (but said nothing). It is hard, but you have to sit back.
FWIW if she ever does that to you, you can say what you need to say. Good luck. It is most likely she will be absolutely fine.
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mlana
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Jun 27, 2014 19:58:15 GMT
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Post by mlana on Mar 16, 2019 21:33:13 GMT
I think this kind of is what I was trying to say. Niece is NOT some hooligan who doesn't know how to act. DH and I took her on a cruise just the two of us and she was fine. We go shopping and hang out and it's all so easy-breezy. Same when it's just my SIL and me. But when the two of them are together, it's just so hard to deal with. Niece just becomes so surly and irritating and SIL just lets her run the show. And that's irritating to me. And I probably have a harder time dealing with it because we do not have children or really any other exposure to non-adults. These are my closest family and you go from enjoying their company to wanting to smack them both. I think part of the problem is that they live out of town so while we do see them often, it's for an entire weekend, not just a couple of hours each visit. So you're really kind of getting the "lived in" perspective. I am just trying to navigate how to remain silent. I have gone thru something similar with family members. I spoke with them when we were alone and told them how their actions made me look at them differently, with less respect and admiration. In your case, I might tell her that I saw her actions as being disrespectful and ungrateful and I, who had previously thought she was the bee's knees, now wondered if she was perhaps bordering on being a spoiled child. I would not want to take someone I thought so poorly of on trips or adventures because I would be concerned they would start showing this attitude to me. I have to admit, I would also tell her what I think of people who disrespect their parents and it's not something positive. She would not be raising her value in my eyes by acting that way. I would also have a similar conversation with SIL, letting her know that when Niece behaves like that in front of us, we are not encouraged to think well of her. If SIL wants her DD to shine, she needs to make sure DD understands how these sort of actions take the shine off that halo. I am the parent of 2 grown kids, and there is no time in their life that they would have reacted the way your niece did. Had they even hesitated when I asked them to do something, they would have received THE LOOK that they both swear still strikes terror in their hearts. LOL Neither of mine were angels, but this was not something they would have done. Marcy
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Post by dewryce on Mar 16, 2019 21:38:39 GMT
Just to give you another possible perspective, your SIL might be letting things go because you are trying to have a pleasant visit. What goes on in their house might be completely different. Something seemingly small can trip my DDs trigger and her behavior can escalate. When with my family, I try to diffuse the situation because I know a teenage girl can make a scene just like a toddler can. I always appreciate when my mom or my sister tells her to knock it off.This is what I’m wondering about. Depending on your relationship with SIL, maybe she would appreciate some back up? Maybe not and she would see it as interfering. Can you ask her? Depending on your relationship with niece, maybe you could have a conversation with her and ask why she does it, discuss being helpful. She might take it better coming from you since it is not you she is rebelling against. Either way, if you decide that talking with them works for your family dynamic I would start with what you said here. “She/you are an amazing person and really well behaved etc etc etc, except for this one circumstance.” With SIL follow up with, “would someone else chiming in help/back you up, or would you prefer I stay out of it?” And with niece, “why is that?” Good luck, I’d be annoyed too.
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Post by bc2ca on Mar 16, 2019 21:51:57 GMT
I only raised a boy, but this really sounds like typical for that age teenage girl pushback to me. Quite frankly, as the parent I’d be annoyed that you corrected my daughter on these seemingly minor infractions. And in front of others no less. That’s my job, and correcting my teenager in public was a no go. We talked in private if necessary. All that said, your niece’s attitude would not fly with me If I was her parent. The only advice I have is to let her parents parent. Your job as an aunt is to be a soft place to land. Thanks. And yes, I absolutely know I was in the wrong when I said something. Just to be clear, it was just the four of us at the table. So, her close family. I have only said something the one time and would certainly never say anything in public. It's just so hard when we spend hours and hours with them and it seems like she's being so disrespectful to her mother while NOT being that way to anyone else. I just need to figure out a way for it not to piss ME off. I don't think there is anything wrong with distancing yourself a bit and, if asked why, tell them it is hard for you to watch your niece being so rude and not say anything. You don't know how they are handling it when they get home - if they are dealing with it or ignoring it. And your niece isn't turning into an idiot around her mom. She is 14 and knew perfectly well how to find the napkins. She just didn't want to get them.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Mar 16, 2019 22:10:16 GMT
Thanks. And yes, I absolutely know I was in the wrong when I said something. Just to be clear, it was just the four of us at the table. So, her close family. I have only said something the one time and would certainly never say anything in public. It's just so hard when we spend hours and hours with them and it seems like she's being so disrespectful to her mother while NOT being that way to anyone else. I just need to figure out a way for it not to piss ME off. I don't think there is anything wrong with distancing yourself a bit and, if asked why, tell them it is hard for you to watch your niece being so rude and not say anything. You don't know how they are handling it when they get home - if they are dealing with it or ignoring it. And your niece isn't turning into an idiot around her mom. She is 14 and knew perfectly well how to find the napkins. She just didn't want to get them. Yeah my response to the napkins would have been then I guess I can't let you go get fast food with your friends because how will you ever find the napkins? Can you imagine being at taco Bell and not being able to find the hot sauce? I guess you'll just have to go with me for the rest of your life! And I would have said the whole thing with a big huge grin. But I can be a butthead to my kids that way.
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Post by Florida Cindy on Mar 16, 2019 22:14:28 GMT
Your house, your rules.
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Post by Florida Cindy on Mar 16, 2019 22:15:33 GMT
If it's not in your house, then mom needs to parent.
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AnotherPea
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Post by AnotherPea on Mar 16, 2019 22:17:55 GMT
First off, I adore my niece (14). When we're together I have a great time and she is fun to be around. But when you add her Mom to the mix (my DH's sister, whom I also love), it gets hairy and I get so irritated. And I guess I should preface this by saying that my DH and I do not have children (by choice). So I really, really have no business being all judgy about parenting styles. The only experience I have with a parent/child relationship is the one between me and my parents. Anyway, just as an example. We were at my house and SIL had her hands full doing something. She asked, "Niece, will you please run out to the car and get X?" Niece was sitting on the couch reading. Niece just said, "No." So SIL untangles herself from her project and goes and does it herself. Later, we are at dinner in my home and my dining room is kind of small. So while not impossible to get through to the kitchen while everyone is sitting, it's not the easiest. Anyway, Niece is closest to the kitchen, the meal was over and we were all just talking. SIL asks, "Niece, will you get me some more water, please?" Niece just says, "No." So SIL starts to get up. It's like an alien came over my body. I said to Niece, "I don't know what you do at home, but when you're in THIS house, when someone asks you to do something, it's not a request." Niece just kind of looked at me and grinned and then got up and got the water. Now don't get me wrong, I don't think parents should use their kids for slave labor, but asking your child to do something to be helpful isn't out of line. And if it had been ME or my DH asking, Niece would have popped up without a word. It's just her Mom lets her get away with stuff like this and, while I think I irritated my SIL by speaking up, I just could not keep quiet. I don't want to keep getting irritated being around them at the same time. Any thoughts or advice? One final thing is that my Niece turns into an idiot around her mother. We were at a fast food place and SIL was carrying their tray to the table and said she forgot napkins. "Niece, go back and get napkins, please." Niece responds with, "I don't know where to go" and sits down. So SIL sits the tray down and goes back for them. This happens a lot. SIL says she's a typical teenager. SILS seems to say that a lot. But it was an Arby's and Niece is a smart girl. Yet she didn't know where to go for napkins and I guess thought she'd get lost in the vast expanse of the restaurant. Your niece is being a brat and your SIL is being an idiot. This is NOT typical teenage behavior. It IS typical of teens to try to "push back" as a previous poster said, but this behavior is only typical if the authority figure enables it. Which your SIL has done. As the mother, I would have maybe been embarrassed that my child behaved that way in front of you and embarrassed that clearly I had zero control over her, but I would not have been embarrassed/insulted/upset in any way that you spoke to YOUR NIECE about her blatant disrespect. I'm not a crazy mother bear that thinks I am the only adult that can correct bad behavior.
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MerryMom
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Jul 24, 2014 19:51:57 GMT
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Post by MerryMom on Mar 16, 2019 22:25:05 GMT
SIL is choosing her battles especially around others. Also, trust me, the niece wouldn’t have just given a smile and done it if that was said at home. Trust me!
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Post by hmp on Mar 16, 2019 23:18:13 GMT
Just curious, how does she treat her father? Does he put up with this behavior & disrespect?
I think both your niece & SIL are blind to how this behavior appears to others. If I see this in public & don’t know the family I usually think the parents are total pushovers & enabling their child’s bad behavior. I look down on them for being too lazy and/or uncaring to bother with raising their children properly. If I know those involved I’m likely to give them a little slack, & think “typical teenager.” But mostly I’m thinking if I had ever behaved like this in public both my parents would have made sure I didn’t live to see my next birthday!
When did a public show of disrespect and lack of manners become socially acceptable? I see your actions as caring & supportive of raising good kids. You know she’s capable of being so much better and you want the rest of the world to see her at her best. You’re a wonderful aunt and an equally wonderful, caring person. After all, if you didn’t love your niece so much, her behavior wouldn’t bother you so much!
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kibblesandbits
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Aug 13, 2016 13:47:39 GMT
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Post by kibblesandbits on Mar 16, 2019 23:22:20 GMT
Just laughing at the thought of one of my kids saying a flat "no" to one of my reasonable requests for help. She's being a brat, but it's not up to you to fix it. As long as she's not mouthing back at you, stay out of it.
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Post by maryland on Mar 16, 2019 23:28:17 GMT
Ugh. I have raised two girls who are just past teenagerhood. At their absolute worst, they would not have said "no" to me for those requests. 1. I think your SIL is making a mistake. While I 100% to pick and choose battles, simple respect is not one that I'd back down on. My son barely spoke from 14-16, but if I asked for something (and THAT is where I picked what I asked), he said "Yes, mom" and did it. I did not ask a ton of things, because I didn't want things to be a battle, but if he EVER - I mean freaking ever! - said no to me when we were with others, I just cannot even imagine. I honestly cannot think of what I would have done. One of my daughters' head spun 360 and still she would have done something if I asked. Mind you, I would absolutely not have asked if her head was spinning at the time. 2. You probably should not have said anything. That said, if your BIL wasn't there, I think you can speak up because you're backup, essentially. If both your SIL and BIL were there, then they have the one-two punch available and chose not to use it. 3. Respect is a big one for me, so your example hit me hard. I think it's a big mistake what the parents are doing. Either setting their daughter up to say "no" or letting her say "no" with no consequences. Stomping feet, slamming doors, anger are all things that are more "normal" for teenagers. It sounds like your niece is calm and reasoned when she says no and that would bother me, too. ALL that said, I have seen hundreds of poor parenting choices and seen those kids grow up to be great adults. I am absolutely certain that people disagreed with my parenting (but said nothing). It is hard, but you have to sit back. FWIW if she ever does that to you, you can say what you need to say. Good luck. It is most likely she will be absolutely fine. I agree! I am fortunate that my 3 teen girls seemed to have skipped the moody and disrespectful teen stage, so I can't even imagine what I would do if they were disrespectful. Respect goes both ways, and it's always been very important in our family.
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Post by melodyesch on Mar 16, 2019 23:34:51 GMT
Just curious, how does she treat her father? Does he put up with this behavior & disrespect? My SIL and BIL have been separated/divorced for a couple of years and I have no knowledge of their interactions. Niece did tell me over the summer that she didn’t like spending the weekends over there because her Dad is more strict than her Mom. I can’t believe that her Dad would allow that sort of behavior, either toward him OR toward her mother.
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likescarrots
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Aug 16, 2014 17:52:53 GMT
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Post by likescarrots on Mar 16, 2019 23:38:55 GMT
I think you handled it well. If mom wants to let her kid act like a brat at her house, that's her business. If the kid acts like a brat at my house, I'm saying something. If mom has a problem with it she can decide whether she wants to bring the kid back to my house. I don't want brats at my house so I'm fine with her not coming if she's going to act like that and no one's going to fix it.
For the record, I have definitely corrected my niece in similar situations and my sister has never seemed upset by it. But she also wouldn't let her daughter get away with saying 'no' like she had a choice, so...
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Post by maryland on Mar 17, 2019 0:47:38 GMT
I think you handled it well. If mom wants to let her kid act like a brat at her house, that's her business. If the kid acts like a brat at my house, I'm saying something. If mom has a problem with it she can decide whether she wants to bring the kid back to my house. I don't want brats at my house so I'm fine with her not coming if she's going to act like that and no one's going to fix it. For the record, I have definitely corrected my niece in similar situations and my sister has never seemed upset by it. But she also wouldn't let her daughter get away with saying 'no' like she had a choice, so... That's how I feel too.
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Post by AussieMeg on Mar 17, 2019 0:57:53 GMT
I have 2 nieces around the same age. They try pulling this crap—I call them out on it when we are around. They don’t get away with crap like that around us, in our home, or if we are at another siblings house. It’s disrespectful and lazy. I adore my niece and nephew and my niece is an absolute sweetheart. But my SIL says that she has recently started talking back a bit more - she's 12. I have gently called out both my niece and nephew when they've been disrespectful towards my SIL. I always appreciate when my mom or my sister tells her to knock it off. I can absolutely understand that. Personally I think it's good when another trusted adult family member steps in, it lets the kid see that it's not just silly old nagging mum who calls them on their behaviour.
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Post by scrapmaven on Mar 17, 2019 1:41:33 GMT
That's a cringeworthy moment. I wouldn't have accepted "no" from my kids. That just doesn't fly here; however, it's a different circumstance and my kids had to do more for themselves than other kids w/normal moms. I wonder if your sil carries guilt over the divorce and has a hard time being assertive? From your description she's a good kid for everyone else. That is the real litmus test. I would sit back and let it be their issue.
Now that I've said that, my sil did parent my kids a little bit, but she was also a caretaker when I was infirm. So, the dynamic is different. Luckily, for my kids she has natural maternal instincts and was great w/them. Still, when she'd scold them in front of me I'd be a little bit taken aback. You could talk to your sil about the situation and ask her if you overstepped your bounds, leading to a dialogue about how you can help and if you can help.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Mar 17, 2019 3:57:31 GMT
But where in the rest of the world do you *have* to do someone a favor, like get up from the table to get them water instead of them getting themselves water? Nowhere. I don’t really see what lesson the neice needs to learn here 🤷🏻♀️ How about a lesson in kindness and being helpful? Or doing for others? Someone mentioned that children are not slaves to be ordered around....you mentioned your house isn’t the military or ordering them around...but what about teaching your children to be kind and help one another. Or lessons in not being selfish or self serving? Or respecting their elders? Asking someone to help them out by getting something from the car while you’re otherwise tied up is not ordering someone around. Neither is asking the closest person to the kitchen in a tight dining room situation if they can get them a glass of water. We don’t teach ours to be doormats or slaves to others, but being kind and helping others is high on the priority list. Thank you for saying exactly what I was thinking! This is how we do things too, and that kind of behavior would not fly with me in my house. If the person doing the asking is doing so politely and the person being asked isn’t totally being put out or inconvenienced, then I think a curt “No.” is just being plain rude. My motto with my own kid is this: “You get more of what you want when I get more of what I want.” I am much more likely to want to do nice things for the people who also willingly do nice things for me. If I had a kid who treated me rudely and with disrespect especially around other people, I wouldn’t hesitate to remind that kid of that the very next time they wanted anything extra from me. Sorry, but in that case I can say no all day long too.
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paget
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Posts: 6,742
Jun 25, 2014 21:16:39 GMT
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Post by paget on Mar 17, 2019 5:11:38 GMT
I've only read a handful of posts, but I call bullshit on typical behavior. Saying no is typical. Letting them get away with it is not. Except I call bullshit on the whole thing- I raised three teen daughters. They never would have said no and if they did, I wouldn’t have just let it go. They are all amazing people and I’m proud of them.
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sanctimommy
Junior Member
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Jul 22, 2015 1:49:10 GMT
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Post by sanctimommy on Mar 17, 2019 5:55:05 GMT
I can’t imagine enduring such disrespect. I can tell you that in MY experiences, that is NOT normal teen behavior. When I ask MY girls to stop making homemade ginger kombucha to help me cloth diaper the littles or to knit alpaca scarves for the homeless, they gladly, with a smile and with joy in their hearts, put aside the ginger and mother and jump to attention.
Anyone who doesn’t have the same experience that I do, is likely just weak minded and sadly needs input not only from you, but also from random strangers on the internet like me.
Stay strong. Your niece will not be able to keep a job or be a kind adult without people like you and me. Namaste.
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Post by Zee on Mar 17, 2019 6:45:51 GMT
Neither of my kids would have gotten away with a "No" for no good reason. Ever. But I have always made it a point to ask politely when I need their help with something, so they aren't used to getting "orders" to get me something but rather "requests" for assistance. We're actually a pretty polite family.
The only time I ordered them to do anything was when requests failed (such as remove the dirty dishes from your room by the time I get home from work, etc etc etc).
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Post by Really Red on Mar 17, 2019 14:22:44 GMT
Just curious, how does she treat her father? Does he put up with this behavior & disrespect? My SIL and BIL have been separated/divorced for a couple of years and I have no knowledge of their interactions. Niece did tell me over the summer that she didn’t like spending the weekends over there because her Dad is more strict than her Mom. I can’t believe that her Dad would allow that sort of behavior, either toward him OR toward her mother. This makes a difference to me. Yes, I think you should have said something. When there are two parents there, it is not your business, but here you are supporting your SIL 100%. You are her backup. I've been a single parent for 10 years and it sucks. You are always - ALWAYS - the bad guy. With two parents you can take turns being good cop, but you can't when you're the one and only. You have your SIL's back and that is important. However, if SIL is passive because her ex is so strict, that is a completely different issue. Nothing you do is going to change anything, except continue to be a presence in this child's life.
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paigepea
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Jun 26, 2014 4:28:55 GMT
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Post by paigepea on Mar 17, 2019 15:19:00 GMT
You are assuming that SIL isn’t discussing this behaviour with your niece in private or that SIL doesn’t call your niece out on this behaviour if she tries it when you’re not around.
I would be upset if an aunt spoke to my dd the way you did. Maybe you have a different relationship with niece than my girls with their aunts. If my girls acted in this way something else would be going on that others might not know about. Maybe SIL doesn’t feel as close in front of you as you think she does.
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Dalai Mama
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Post by Dalai Mama on Mar 17, 2019 15:50:24 GMT
I just started reading the responses, but I agree with the way you handled it. No way I would keep my mouth shut.
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luckyjune
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Jul 22, 2017 4:59:41 GMT
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Post by luckyjune on Mar 17, 2019 16:09:50 GMT
I'd say to let it be. The dynamics between teens and their parents have too many variables for someone who is not around 24/7 to comprehend.
You said your niece grinned when you told her to help her mom. Consider this: you could be adding fuel to the fire by making a remark. Your niece, responding to you, was a non-verbal way for her to get a dig in with her mom. "I'll do this for my aunt, but not for you, Mom." If I was the mom, I'd feel defeated in that moment.
So be a good support to your SIL, but let the mom/daughter dance play out on its own.
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