DEX
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,468 
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Post by DEX on May 23, 2019 17:01:09 GMT
DISCLAIMER: I don't care who the president is in this case. It could have been Obama, Clinton or Bush for all I care.
There is speculation that the president is considering pardoning at least 3 men for war crimes, and maybe others, over the Memorial Day weekend.
One request is for Special Operations Chief Edward Gallagher of the Navy SEALs, who is scheduled to stand trial in the coming weeks on charges of shooting unarmed civilians and killing an enemy captive with a knife while deployed in Iraq.
The others are believed to include the case of a former Blackwater security contractor recently found guilty in the deadly 2007 shooting of dozens of unarmed Iraqis; the case of Maj. Mathew L. Golsteyn, the Army Green Beret accused of killing an unarmed Afghan in 2010; and the case of a group of Marine Corps snipers charged with urinating on the corpses of dead Taliban fighters. Potential pardons
My personal opinion is that none of these men should be pardoned. I am really interested in others opinion on this issue. I am particularly curious about the opinion of those currently with family in the military or those who have served.
I served during the Vietnam War (not in Vietnam) and I remember the My Lai incident where approx. 500 civilians were massacred. There was a cover-up and only one man was convicted. My Lai. He has never been pardoned.
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Post by crimsoncat05 on May 23, 2019 17:05:12 GMT
I don't think ANY of them should be pardoned, at ALL... and nowhere NEAR the Memorial Day Holiday, or any other time. At all. It's repugnant to me to even think he would do something like that.
But I also wonder- how can he say he'll pardon someone who hasn't even gone to trial yet? Accepting a pardon is an admission of guilt, isn't it? Can he pardon someone before they've even been tried?
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casii
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,598
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Post by casii on May 23, 2019 17:05:39 GMT
This make me incredibly upset and as the wife, daughter and granddaughter of vets, I feel it's entirely inappropriate.
I don't feel Trump understands the purpose of pardons or that he cares how it looks, considering he pardoned Arpaio.
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Post by ntsf on May 23, 2019 17:08:10 GMT
who could support this unless it was for their own personal interest? it is so corrupt and horrible. some people need to go to jail for a long time
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Post by crimsoncat05 on May 23, 2019 17:08:49 GMT
considering he pardoned Arpaio. oh, yeah- that was another one that made me ill. I think I heard an interview about him and his pardon... the person interviewing said, 'you know that means you're accepting guilt for those actions, if you accept the pardon, right?' and Arpaio said he did NOT believe that's what a pardon meant.  |
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Post by thundergal on May 23, 2019 17:17:25 GMT
It's not my practice to question the integrity of anyone who has served our country.
That being said, I can't imagine that someone who has served would think this is remotely okay.
This is absolutely shameful.
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DEX
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,468
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Post by DEX on May 23, 2019 17:28:08 GMT
I agree with all of the above but...let me play devil's advocate here. Most of use do not know what it is like to be in combat. The loss of your comrades, the stress, the chronic, daily danger. Many soldiers have had multiple tours in the Middle East and I am sure it has to affect them in some way. We all know that the VA system is inadequate (sorry to my cousin who is a VA Dr. in Colorado) Also, I am sure that every single war has had incidences of war crimes.
What about Abu Ghraib? Should those soldiers also receive pardons?
Abu Ghraib history of torture
During the Vietnam War soldiers were only sent for one tour of duty. Now soldiers are sent back again and again. Of course, there was a military draft during the Vietnam War too.
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twinsmomfla99
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,380
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Post by twinsmomfla99 on May 23, 2019 17:37:17 GMT
I agree with all of the above but...let me play devil's advocate here. Most of use do not know what it is like to be in combat. The loss of your comrades, the stress, the chronic, daily danger. Many soldiers have had multiple tours in the Middle East and I am sure it has to affect them in some way. We all know that the VA system is inadequate (sorry to my cousin who is a VA Dr. in Colorado) Also, I am sure that every single war has had incidences of war crimes.
What about Abu Ghraib? Should those soldiers also receive pardons?
Abu Ghraib history of torture
During the Vietnam War soldiers were only sent for one tour of duty. Now soldiers are sent back again and again. Of course, there was a military draft during the Vietnam War too.
I have never been in combat and cannot imagine the stress involved. However, I am 100% positive that at least some of those involved in the military judicial system are quite familiar with combat situations, and if someone is found guilty in a court martial proceeding, I don’t think there should be a pardon. Excusing the terrible behavior of our soldiers in uniform puts all of our military men and women at risk when they are deployed. |
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huskergal
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,793
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Post by huskergal on May 23, 2019 17:38:29 GMT
They should not be pardoned. Their own platoon members turned them in. I read some of the details of the crimes. They were horrific. Tours of duty do not condone criminal behavior.
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janeliz
Drama Llama
I'm the Wiz and nobody beats me.
Posts: 5,673
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Post by janeliz on May 23, 2019 17:39:55 GMT
It’s a slap in the face to men and women who have served honorably. It’s disgusting.
Therefore, it sounds like something Trump will absolutely do.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on May 23, 2019 17:40:00 GMT
I do not think that they should be pardoned. I am curious what Trump is using as the rationale to do so, or to even contemplate doing so? To me, it shows his serious lack of judgement and unique cognitive processes. Again.
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scrapngranny
Pearl Clutcher
Only slightly senile
Posts: 4,979
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Post by scrapngranny on May 23, 2019 17:40:54 GMT
No, war criminals should not be pardoned by anyone except the military. This action gives a great big F you to the Code of Military Justice.
Since I don’t think any other president, except would think to do this, I’m curious about the the why. Trump does give one damn about the soiiders on any level. He has another agenda with this plan. How does this serve Trump? There is no one else he cares about. Is he sending a message to the military about who they should be loyal to in the event he should decide not to leave the White House if he not be re-elected or removed from office?
Trump has never made an altruistic gesture in his life, there is something in it for him, guaranteed.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on May 23, 2019 17:45:11 GMT
Not appropriate! Just read an article about this.Well we know dt likes mobs!
Gen McRaven (Led the the raid/capture of Osama Bin Laden) has spoken out against the pardons.. Thinking the list will get longer.
The other thing to me is that it has been stated that it take MONTHS of reviews through the DOJ etc, to make the final choices, which of course is not happening by this weekend! Or rather should not be happening on such short notice. I think they are a disgrace!
Memorial Day is a day to HONOR our fallen. My Uncle John is one of them and he never came home!
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Post by lisacharlotte on May 23, 2019 17:47:18 GMT
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Post by dewryce on May 23, 2019 17:47:58 GMT
No, war criminals should not be pardoned by anyone except the military. This action gives a great big F you to the Code of Military Justice. Since I don’t think any other president, except would think to do this, I’m curious about the the why. Trump does give one damn about the soiiders on any level. He has another agenda with this plan. How does this serve Trump? There is no one else he cares about. Is he sending a message to the military about who they should be loyal to in the event he should decide not to leave the White House if he not be re-elected or removed from office? Trump has never made an altruistic gesture in his life, there is something in it for him, guaranteed. I assumed it was because he feels it will make him a hero to vets and those that support them. |
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Post by revirdsuba99 on May 23, 2019 17:52:17 GMT
I agree with all of the above but...let me play devil's advocate here. Most of use do not know what it is like to be in combat. The loss of your comrades, the stress, the chronic, daily danger. Many soldiers have had multiple tours in the Middle East and I am sure it has to affect them in some way. We all know that the VA system is inadequate (sorry to my cousin who is a VA Dr. in Colorado) Also, I am sure that every single war has had incidences of war crimes.
What about Abu Ghraib? Should those soldiers also receive pardons?
Abu Ghraib history of torture
During the Vietnam War soldiers were only sent for one tour of duty. Now soldiers are sent back again and again. Of course, there was a military draft during the Vietnam War too.
WWII they went for the duration! There were NO phones, NO emails, NO facetime/Skype, NO R&R. The mail was extremely irregular if it got through at all it was drastically censored. Many families got letters AFTER the telegraph and/or knock on the door! |
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Post by revirdsuba99 on May 23, 2019 17:57:47 GMT
Is he sending a message to the military about who they should be loyal to in the event he should decide not to leave the White House if he not be re-elected or removed from office? They have also taken the OATH he has forgotten to protect the Constitution of United States and against all others, both foreign and domestic! I assumed it was because he feels it will make him a hero to vets and those that support them. I think it was Merge mentioned on another thread that Rep Dan Crenshaw (R-TX), big dt supporter, has spoken out against these pardons!! The military does not support them! |
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Montannie
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,486
Location: Big Sky Country
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Post by Montannie on May 23, 2019 17:58:25 GMT
It's prompted by an idiot talking head on Faux News. So naturally, Trump thinks it's a great idea.
The thought of it makes me sick.
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Post by busy on May 23, 2019 17:58:54 GMT
I don't think any of them should be pardoned and am especially appalled at the idea of pardoning Gallagher. And tying it to Memorial Day is an offense to the memory and sacrifice of all who honorably served and lost their lives while doing so.
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Post by Merge on May 23, 2019 18:00:56 GMT
No pardons. They're called war crimes for a reason. If we accept that any behavior is acceptable under the duress of being deployed in a combat zone, why classify any behavior as war crimes at all? Why not just let it be a free for all? Rape, loot, pillage, torture ... heck, get your dragon and burn the whole city down.  I agree that if he does this, he's doing it because he thinks that certain members of his base will be happy he pardoned people who killed Muslims, just like certain members were happy he pardoned a sheriff who illegally detained undocumented immigrants. |
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inkedup
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,840
Jun 26, 2014 5:00:26 GMT
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Post by inkedup on May 23, 2019 18:01:18 GMT
I think the pardons are a terrible idea, particularly in the case of the soldier who has yet to be tried. I read several different opinion pieces that also mentioned the effect this would have on our allies and our standing in the world. I read that these pardons would make our soldiers less safe in the world.
Like most things Trump does, he has only thought as far as scoring points with the jingoists who worship him. He is not intelligent or interested enough to consider the long term implications of his actions.
A person in my husband's family is tickled and hopes Trump pardons "anyone sitting in a military jail for killing a towel head."
Exactly the kind of person Trump is courting.
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Post by Merge on May 23, 2019 18:01:34 GMT
Is he sending a message to the military about who they should be loyal to in the event he should decide not to leave the White House if he not be re-elected or removed from office? They have also taken the OATH he has forgotten to protect the Constitution of United States and against all others, both foreign and domestic! I assumed it was because he feels it will make him a hero to vets and those that support them. I think it was Merge mentioned on another thread that Rep Dan Crenshaw (R-TX), big dt supporter, has spoken out against these pardons!! The military does not support them! Yep, it was me. |
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Post by busy on May 23, 2019 18:05:48 GMT
A person in my husband's family is tickled and hopes Trump pardons "anyone sitting in a military jail for killing a towel head." Exactly the kind of person Trump is courting. This 100%. It's so gross. |
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Post by 950nancy on May 23, 2019 18:07:48 GMT
I do not think that they should be pardoned. I am curious what Trump is using as the rationale to do so, or to even contemplate doing so? To me, it shows his serious lack of judgement and unique cognitive processes. Again. I really have no idea what he is thinking, but in keeping with the way he seems to react to situations, he is looking for approval. He doesn't seem to look at right vs wrong. He seems to think he should do things that he thinks will make him more popular. Several days ago, someone posted (somewhere) that he makes decisions according to the number of likes he gets on Twitter. I haven't researched this statement yet, but it does seem to keep in line with how reacts to some pretty important decisions. |
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jayfab
Drama Llama
procastinating
Posts: 5,910
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Post by jayfab on May 23, 2019 18:53:08 GMT
No pardons. They're called war crimes for a reason. If we accept that any behavior is acceptable under the duress of being deployed in a combat zone, why classify any behavior as war crimes at all? Why not just let it be a free for all? Rape, loot, pillage, torture ... heck, get your dragon and burn the whole city down. I agree that if he does this, he's doing it because he thinks that certain members of his base will be happy he pardoned people who killed Muslims, just like certain members were happy he pardoned a sheriff who illegally detained undocumented immigrants.This - I've already seen comments of the sort. |
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peabay
Prolific Pea
Posts: 9,975
Jun 25, 2014 19:50:41 GMT
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Post by peabay on May 23, 2019 18:58:15 GMT
My biggest concern is that if we, as a society, say somehow "some war crimes are okay", then we're saying it doesn't matter if it's a US soldier perpetrating them or a foreign soldier on a US citizen. And then it's open season on our citizens and on pretty much anyone else for whom we can excuse the behavior.
It's really scary when you think about it that way.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on May 23, 2019 19:09:20 GMT
Like most things Trump does, he has only thought as far as scoring points with the jingoists who worship him. He is not intelligent or interested enough to consider the long term implications of his actions. A person in my husband's family is tickled and hopes Trump pardons "anyone sitting in a military jail for killing a towel head." Disgusting! |
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 10, 2026 10:37:52 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2019 19:10:35 GMT
Trump's personal attorney, Marc Mukasey, joined Gallagher's defense team in recent months. He is Giuliani's former partner (not sure they are currently affiliated). His usual specialty is defending white collar crimes. Not sure what he's adding to a military crime defense, other than a relationship to the President.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on May 23, 2019 19:11:45 GMT
My biggest concern is that if we, as a society, say somehow "some war crimes are okay", then we're saying it doesn't matter if it's a US soldier perpetrating them or a foreign soldier on a US citizen. And then it's open season on our citizens and on pretty much anyone else for whom we can excuse the behavior. It's really scary when you think about it that way. Sadly, he does NOT care about us, or the USA! Trump's personal attorney, Marc Mukasey, joined Gallagher's defense team in recent months. He is Giuliani's former partner (not sure they are currently affiliated). His usual specialty is defending white collar crimes. Not sure what he's adding to a military crime defense, other than a relationship to the President. THIS cannot be explained.... |
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Post by sassyangel on May 23, 2019 19:32:36 GMT
I don’t think any of those crimes justify a pardon.
I think it’s reprehensible they’re under consideration of being given, for whatever reason.
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