paget
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,757
Jun 25, 2014 21:16:39 GMT
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Post by paget on Dec 9, 2019 18:59:18 GMT
Ms. sounds like Miz, not Miss. Either way, I think we should standardize on Ms. for all women and have thought so for decades. There is no reason our marital status needs to be disclosed in our name. Ridiculous. This. It is stupid. The end.
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Post by 950nancy on Dec 9, 2019 19:02:19 GMT
Through my entire teaching career, I was/am married and was referred to primarily as Miss 950. Don't know why people couldn't say it the way it was written, but it never once bothered me.
I think it is hard to change people as a whole, so the Miss vs. Ms. will probably not change until there is a national outcry.
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Post by femalebusiness on Dec 9, 2019 19:21:29 GMT
Ms. sounds like Miz, not Miss. Either way, I think we should standardize on Ms. for all women and have thought so for decades. There is no reason our marital status needs to be disclosed in our name. Ridiculous. This. It is stupid. The end. I would say stupid is anyone who cannot distinguish the difference between the Z sound and the S sound. Also stupid is anyone who would insist a woman be labeled by her marital status.
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Post by creativegirl on Dec 9, 2019 19:29:15 GMT
I noticed recently that I've almost never have someone call me Mrs.LastName until I started volunteering in my daughter's class. Her teacher calls me that (I think it's because she mostly can't remember my first name lol) so the kids do too. It makes me feel about one billion years old!
It is relatively common here for children to address adult women as "Ms.FirstName" but I never really hear Mrs. unless it's a teacher.
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paget
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,757
Jun 25, 2014 21:16:39 GMT
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Post by paget on Dec 9, 2019 19:59:48 GMT
This. It is stupid. The end. I would say stupid is anyone who cannot distinguish the difference between the Z sound and the S sound. Also stupid is anyone who would insist a woman be labeled by her marital status. I think I wasn’t being clear maybe? I was completely agreeing with the post I quoted.
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mallie
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,253
Jul 3, 2014 18:13:13 GMT
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Post by mallie on Dec 9, 2019 20:18:28 GMT
I hate Miss and Mrs. If someone uses either (which is rare these days), I correct it to 'Ms.' If it's spoken how do you know the difference?
I think of Miss as a little girl and Ms. can be married or unmarried.
Depending on the locale, there is a spoken difference between Miss and Ms. Where I come from, Miss has a long soft ss sound at the end. Ms sounds like Miz or a z sound at the end. Where I live now in the southeastern US, both sound like Miz. When I lived in the midwest, it was only very old ladies who wanted to be called Mrs. Smith. Everyone else went by their first name. Here in the southeastern US, at my retail job as a manager, I was always called Miss Mallie by both staff and many customers (who saw my nametag). When I first started, I was warned after a few days, that I had to talk to female customers using, "Ma'am" (and NOT "Miss"). Also if I knew their names, as "Miss Sue." I was further warned that older black women took the honorific very seriously. Similarly, if a customer or a staff member failed to use the "Miss Mallie" to me, then my mostly younger African-American female staff would get upset on my behalf. They viewed it as a deliberately disrespectful and provocative gesture. Part of their attitude is no doubt due to the historic truth that in the south, African-American women were not accorded any honorifics until well into the twentieth century and often, until the civil rights movement. You can see that in city directories in the late 19th century and early 20th century, for example, when white women who were single or widowed always had their names written as, "Smith, Mrs/Miss Sue." (Married white women were absent entirely if they lived with their husbands in many city directories.) Black women, on the other hand were, "Smith, Sue (c)." So I and my black staff's and customers' ancestresses would have been Mallie, not Miss Mallie. --- In so far as younger women and the Mrs. signage and phrasing for wedding decor and the like... In my experience, that is nothing more than a decor trend. I have been to quite a few weddings and bridal showers where it was used and most of those women did not even change their surname. That includes one of my daughters. She had a "Mr & Mrs." sign on her sweetheart table and a few other items and she intended to and did keep her birth name after marriage. To my girls and the women in their age group, it seems like the "Mrs" stuff is just a "cute" thing for weddings. They mostly haven't changed their names and even the ones who did change their name ever go by "Mrs."
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Post by femalebusiness on Dec 9, 2019 20:33:30 GMT
I would say stupid is anyone who cannot distinguish the difference between the Z sound and the S sound. Also stupid is anyone who would insist a woman be labeled by her marital status. I think I wasn’t being clear maybe? I was completely agreeing with the post I quoted. I didn't read the “it”. My fault.
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Post by pierkiss on Dec 9, 2019 20:36:02 GMT
I think it doesn’t matter. I never correct people who mistakenly call me and vs Mrs. and before I was married if someone called me Mrs instead of Miss I also didn’t correct them. It’s not worth the few moments of awkwardness.
It would be nice if we could just have one title to denote women vs tying it into marriage status. So I say Ms for everyone! 😁
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Post by gmcwife1 on Dec 9, 2019 20:37:53 GMT
I don’t hear the difference verbally much between Ms and Miss. I consider myself Ms, but don’t consider it my marital status if someone uses it.
If I’m in a restaurant and need to get the attention of our waitress I will say “excuse me Miss” if her back is turned. And if it’s a waiter, I say “excuse me Sir”. Neither of those are referencing their marital status, just a polite greeting. Sometimes we just need a way to greet people... I agree. I don't really care what they use to address me as I don't associate it with my martial status. I don't wear my wedding rings most of the time, so some wont even realize I am married unless they actually know me. I am also fine if they use my first name. Short of being called an ugly name, it wouldn't even register on my radar. Same for me And same for me for the restaurant example. But, I just don’t see people trying to be polite offensive. Or many of the other things said or done as offensive.
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Post by Spongemom Scrappants on Dec 9, 2019 20:49:06 GMT
In the south we call everyone ma'am. Even kids- as in "no ma'am you may not do that!" said to a small child. It's not exclusively an age thing here. So true. And as mallie said, most every woman in the south is addressed as "Miss First Name" by anyone her age and younger. Older women might call you by your first name only. In fact many senior age women still prefer to be called their marital honorific of Mrs. Last Name. As a younger woman, I knew older women that I saw quite frequently in social situations and couldn't have even told you what their first name was. Most children still refer to the friends' parents as Miss First Name and Mr. First Name. It's considered polite. To address someone older than you by their first name only is not proper by old southern etiquette. It's a different world here in the south. Time continues to stand still in many ways. We defy explanation. Bless our hearts. Lol.
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Post by utmr on Dec 9, 2019 20:56:16 GMT
Miss - sounds like Misssss is for young ladies or with a first name as a sign of respect to your elders - for example children addressing adults as Miss Tammy, or me addressing a senior lady as Miss Bernice. It is a sign of respect.
Mrs. - sounds like Mizzezz - used to emphasize that a lady is married. Hardly ever hear it spoken anymore, often see it on written correspondence, especially if in conjunction with the spouse - Mr and Mrs Bob Smith
Ms - sounds like Mizzz - used with a last name if you are not in a situation to use her first name.
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Post by dewryce on Dec 9, 2019 21:12:34 GMT
I would rather be mistaken as a Miss than a Ma’am, but I’ve reached the age where I’m pretty sure that ship has sailed, LOL. In the south we call everyone ma'am. Even kids- as in "no ma'am you may not do that!" said to a small child. It's not exclusively an age thing here. “No sir, don’t talk back to me!” ~ said frequently to my cats. “No sir, don’t even think about it” was a close second. And equally as (in)effective. Ma’am and sir are used here pretty much regardless of age. And I often hear Miss used the same way Ma’am would be. Texas peas, do you hear the spoken difference between Ms and Miss? I almost never do. (Eta: And I don’t think that makes me stupid. How do accents and/or an inability to differentiate between sounds make someone stupid?) And I’ve not really given it a lot of thought, but the Mrs does seem antiquated now that you mention it, and a bit sexist. At this point I think it is said out of tradition, habit and wouldn’t be mad at its use unless someone was being condescending about it. But I do think there should be effort for change going forward.
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Post by AussieMeg on Dec 9, 2019 21:27:15 GMT
When you fill out a form do you have boxes to check for Mr, Mrs, Ms, Miss? No👍🏻 Lucky you!! I was filling out an online order form just the other day. I added all of my details - name, address, phone number etc. And then it insisted that I select Miss / Ms / Mrs / Mr. I do believe that I muttered under my breath something along the lines of "Oh fuck off, I don't need a damn salutation." And to be quite honest, I don't mind being called honey, love, sweetie etc. Or even babe, which is what the girl at the coffee shop at work calls me. I know a lot of people hate it, but I would actually prefer that to being called Ma'am. Aarrrgh! And if I need to catch the attention of wait staff in a restaurant, I would just say "Excuse me." I would never add miss, ma'am or sir after it. To my ears there is a very obvious difference to how Miss and Ms are pronounced. Miss and M'zz. No discernible vowel sound in Ms. But if anything, it's closer to Muzz than Mizz. If people are pronouncing it Mizz then I can see why y'all are saying there isn't much difference.
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Post by dewryce on Dec 9, 2019 21:32:10 GMT
I applaud the medical offices that have added more options for sex. I think that needs to be taken into consideration with titles as well.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Jun 2, 2024 13:05:27 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2019 21:40:02 GMT
I would say stupid is anyone who cannot distinguish the difference between the Z sound and the S sound. Also stupid is anyone who would insist a woman be labeled by her marital status. How does differences in accents make someone stupid? People around here routinely use a sound that is half way between the hard z and soft s...having a regional accent doesn't make them stupid. It just means you live in a bubble and assume everyone speaks like you do.
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muggins
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,861
Jul 30, 2017 3:38:57 GMT
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Post by muggins on Dec 9, 2019 21:45:42 GMT
I think it doesn’t matter. I never correct people who mistakenly call me and vs Mrs. and before I was married if someone called me Mrs instead of Miss I also didn’t correct them. It’s not worth the few moments of awkwardness. It would be nice if we could just have one title to denote women vs tying it into marriage status. So I say Ms for everyone! 😁 But that’s the whole point. Why should women have to keep correcting people or go through moments of awkwardness explaining their marital status to strangers or business colleagues. Men don’t have any of that - it’s Mr, end of story. Perhaps some of the peas who don’t think it’s a big deal are the married ones who have not had to explain their relationship status to anyone for a while. I certainly didn’t think about it until the conversion with my sister. Also, we’re British so we generally use Ma’am, Miss, or Sir much less often to address people in everyday situations.
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msliz
Drama Llama
The Procrastinator
Posts: 6,419
Jun 26, 2014 21:32:34 GMT
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Post by msliz on Dec 9, 2019 21:51:54 GMT
I 100% support the use of Ms, or better yet no gendered title at all.
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AllieC
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,059
Jul 4, 2014 6:57:02 GMT
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Post by AllieC on Dec 9, 2019 22:00:26 GMT
I hate being addressed as Mrs even though I’ve been married for 20+ years. Mrs C is my mother-in-law. I had a long article about my work in the newspaper a few years ago and I was referred to Mrs multiple times and it made me really annoyed. There was no reason at all for my marital status to be inferred. They didn’t ask me either. Miss - definite S sound Ms - in Aus we tend to pronounce Mz I don’t think there is any need for our marital status to be known. Thankfully Ma’am is not common at all in Australia because that to me signifies old lady. pjaye I’ve never heard it, it’s interesting that you’ve found it being used more. Perhaps because I live in the country, I’m more used to Darl LOL.
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Post by pierkiss on Dec 9, 2019 22:07:06 GMT
Lucky you!! I was filling out an online order form just the other day. I added all of my details - name, address, phone number etc. And then it insisted that I select Miss / Ms / Mrs / Mr. I do believe that I muttered under my breath something along the lines of "Oh fuck off, I don't need a damn salutation." And to be quite honest, I don't mind being called honey, love, sweetie etc. Or even babe, which is what the girl at the coffee shop at work calls me. I know a lot of people hate it, but I would actually prefer that to being called Ma'am. Aarrrgh! And if I need to catch the attention of wait staff in a restaurant, I would just say "Excuse me." I would never add miss, ma'am or sir after it. To my ears there is a very obvious difference to how Miss and Ms are pronounced. Miss and M'zz. No discernible vowel sound in Ms. But if anything, it's closer to Muzz than Mizz. If people are pronouncing it Mizz then I can see why y'all are saying there isn't much difference. Would you still be ok with a man calling you babe or honey while they’re helping you with something? I admit I have a double standard on this one. It’s totally fine to me for a woman to call me babe, like “here you go babe, here’s you’re coffee” (or honey or whatever). But the minute a man does it I start looking at them quizzically and get a little bit miffed.
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tuesdaysgone
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,832
Jun 26, 2014 18:26:03 GMT
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Post by tuesdaysgone on Dec 9, 2019 22:08:38 GMT
As others before me have pointed out, it can be a regional thing. I'm in Georgia and every teacher in my school is Miss (last name) no matter her marital status.
Call me Miss, Ms, or Mrs., just don't call me dear or sweetheart or something similar
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Post by AussieMeg on Dec 9, 2019 22:17:55 GMT
And to be quite honest, I don't mind being called honey, love, sweetie etc. Or even babe, which is what the girl at the coffee shop at work calls me. I know a lot of people hate it, but I would actually prefer that to being called Ma'am. Aarrrgh! Would you still be ok with a man calling you babe or honey while they’re helping you with something? I admit I have a double standard on this one. It’s totally fine to me for a woman to call me babe, like “here you go babe, here’s you’re coffee” (or honey or whatever). But the minute a man does it I start looking at them quizzically and get a little bit miffed. Hmmmm, good question! I think I'd be like you and feel a bit ugh if a man called me that! (Kinda like when a female acquaintance of mine, who is bisexual, grabbed me on the bum and said "Nice arse". If a guy had done that I'd be shocked and want to punch him in the nose, but coming from another woman I was quite chuffed! Is that wrong? PS. That happened many years ago when my arse was about 3 sizes smaller haha.)
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RedSquirrelUK
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,748
Location: The UK's beautiful West Country
Aug 2, 2014 13:03:45 GMT
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Post by RedSquirrelUK on Dec 9, 2019 22:45:16 GMT
I agree that marital status is irrelevant, so I'd much rather Ms. for all females above 18 or so. However, what REALLY chaps my hide is the outdated form Mrs. Husbandfirst Husbandsecond (e.g. Mrs. Bob Smith). I have my own name, thank you very much, and my existance isn't tied up in my spouse. The university I (and NOT DH) attended does this in its fundraising mailings, and it ticks me off so much I don't donate when I otherwise would. It's interesting that you say that. My Mum is almost 85. We lost my father nearly 20 years ago. She likes to keep his memory alive by being addressed on envelopes as Mrs Hisname/1stInitial 2ndInitial Surname. She doesn't feel that it takes away her own identity at all, as she took on his name when she married him all those years ago, and has always been known that way. Of course her friends call her Margaret, but she would be affronted if the bank manager or the Inland Revenue tried to. Different generations, different countries, different expectations. It used to be Sir and Madam to denote respect for elders, Miss and Master for unmarried people, and Missus (Mrs) and Mister (Mr) for married people. I wonder why Master got dropped but Miss didn't?
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Post by pierkiss on Dec 9, 2019 23:35:53 GMT
I agree that marital status is irrelevant, so I'd much rather Ms. for all females above 18 or so. However, what REALLY chaps my hide is the outdated form Mrs. Husbandfirst Husbandsecond (e.g. Mrs. Bob Smith). I have my own name, thank you very much, and my existance isn't tied up in my spouse. The university I (and NOT DH) attended does this in its fundraising mailings, and it ticks me off so much I don't donate when I otherwise would. It's interesting that you say that. My Mum is almost 85. We lost my father nearly 20 years ago. She likes to keep his memory alive by being addressed on envelopes as Mrs Hisname/1stInitial 2ndInitial Surname. She doesn't feel that it takes away her own identity at all, as she took on his name when she married him all those years ago, and has always been known that way. Of course her friends call her Margaret, but she would be affronted if the bank manager or the Inland Revenue tried to. Different generations, different countries, different expectations. It used to be Sir and Madam to denote respect for elders, Miss and Master for unmarried people, and Missus (Mrs) and Mister (Mr) for married people. I wonder why Master got dropped but Miss didn't? Some people still use Master for young boys and teenage guys. 2 years my son’s preschool aide wrote him a thank you card for a gift. She addressed it “Master X Y” on the mailing envelope. She has excellent manners, and likes to be formal whenever possible with little kids, so that they learn societal niceties. He thought it was great and tried to get his siblings to call him Master for the rest of the day. 😂
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Dalai Mama
Drama Llama
La Pea Boheme
Posts: 6,985
Jun 26, 2014 0:31:31 GMT
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Post by Dalai Mama on Dec 9, 2019 23:58:37 GMT
Call me Miss or Ms., just don’t call me ma’am.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Jun 2, 2024 13:05:27 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2019 23:59:16 GMT
It’s an attempt to show respect. That’s never wrong.
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Post by disneypal on Dec 10, 2019 0:42:43 GMT
I, personally, do not see it as a big deal. I generally refer to all women as Ms. since it is more generic and refers to all women
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QueenoftheSloths
Drama Llama
Member Since January 2004, 2,698 forum posts PeaNut Number: 122614 PeaBoard Title: StuckOnPeas
Posts: 5,955
Jun 26, 2014 0:29:24 GMT
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Post by QueenoftheSloths on Dec 10, 2019 0:55:10 GMT
I used to have 2 coworkers, one younger than me and one older than me. The younger one hated being called miss by customers, she thought it sounded too young. The older one hated being called ma'am by customers, she thought it sounded too old. I didn't care what customers called me, as long as they were polite. I was very popular with the WWII gentlemen, many of them called me sweetie or things like that. And I was fine with that. But when our new male boss started calling us sweetie, I called him out on it. I wonder if he is calling everyone else sweetie again now that I am gone?
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Jun 2, 2024 13:05:27 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 5:48:05 GMT
In transgender circles, some refer to themselves as Mx. (non-gendered)
I'm staring to use that on forms.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Jun 2, 2024 13:05:27 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 11:00:28 GMT
I was chatting to my unmarried 46 year old sister recently. She feels that in formal settings being referred to as ‘Miss’ Lastname is sexist, outdated, and uncomfortable. She said her marital status is no ones business and shouldn’t be used when addressing women in general. After all, a man’s marital status isn’t revealed when using Mr, so why should women have this information available to everyone? Particularly as a mature woman she feels she is open to judgement (and occasionally pity and/or enquiries) by others. She will often use Ms. in written communication, but feels awkward correcting people in person once they’ve referred to her as Miss. I agree with her. I think it’s time we stopped addressing women in a way that reveals their relationship to a man. Having said that I was in a gift shop yesterday and I saw tons of ‘bride to be’ items with ‘Miss to Mrs’ type phrases on them, so clearly some women see the change of address as something positive. What say the peas? Should a woman’s relationship to a man (or not) be used to address her? You know, I've somehow never thought about this before, but I think you are COMPLETELY right.
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joelise
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,649
Jul 1, 2014 6:33:14 GMT
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Post by joelise on Dec 10, 2019 11:30:10 GMT
In the words of Helen Mirren in Prime Suspect “Don’t call me Ma’am, I’m not the bloody Queen!” I’m happy with being called Mrs New Husband, but when I got divorced I changed from Mrs Old Husband to Ms Old Husband. I didn’t want to go back to my maiden name at that point. If I could start again though I would use Ms Maiden Name after my first wedding. I’ve noticed that more and more people are dropping the title and are using First Name Last Name when addressing me.
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