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Post by Bridget in MD on Mar 25, 2022 20:38:56 GMT
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Post by maryland on Mar 25, 2022 21:05:06 GMT
That's so sad! My daughter does not like it so far. She graduated last year and started in a hospital. They shortened her orientation, and many nurses were leaving. She was in tears after shifts because of the stress and they were given more patients than they had pre covid. She had over 12 hr. shifts and hardly ever had a break to eat. She says her friends from school are not enjoying it either. I think they all wish they majored in something else. It could be due to starting their career during covid.
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craftykitten
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,304
Jun 26, 2014 7:39:32 GMT
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Post by craftykitten on Mar 25, 2022 21:24:02 GMT
I think nurses do a really difficult job, and I certainly wouldn’t want to do it. But from the facts as presented in that report, I really don’t see how you could expect there not to be legal consequences for what she did. It obviously wasn’t intentional but she is responsible for that patient's death.
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Post by Lexica on Mar 25, 2022 21:34:50 GMT
My mom and my older sister were both nurses. After witnessing several things go wrong in hospitals we adopted the policy that neither of my parents would ever be in the hospital without one of us staying with them the entire time. We just traded off shifts to make sure one of us was there to check everything. My older sister would write down a list of things for us to monitor and what their medications should be. We were to check before anything was administered and also to make sure treatments that should be done were being done when they were supposed to be. My sister could be pretty harsh and judgmental of any nurse who was not performing up to her standards.
Over the years, there were a few nurses who would refuse my dad as their patient due to my sister's diligence. One in particular that I remember was a new nurse and she wasn't very confident in her ability and didn't want my sister watching over her or questioning her. I should mention that my sister's last job was as an investigative nurse for the state. She would go into hospitals and do surprise investigations and also investigate after a complaint was made so she was very used to being quite critical of staff performance.
When I was with one of them, I kept a written log of times and things that I was to check. My sister, the nurse, would call frequently to make sure things were going as they should be when either myself or my younger sister were "on duty" with one of my parents. I have had zero medical training so I was always a bit nervous when it was my turn to be with one of them. If my sister hadn't provided all the things I was to watch for, I couldn't have done it. It made me wonder what families that do not have a medical family member do. Between the three of us, we caught several potential errors during my dad's many hospitalizations. Mom was easier to watch because her hospitalizations were for a broken hip and a broken leg, not really any major health issues like Dad had.
This was quite upsetting to read: "Vaught freely admitted to making several errors with the medication that day, but her defense attorney argued the nurse was not acting outside of the norm and systemic problems at Vanderbilt University Medical Center were at least partly to blame for the error."
***Added: I want to add that in addition to monitoring all of Dad's meds and treatments, we also took care of a great deal of what the nurses would have had to do for Dad. Mom took care of his daily bathing. I was usually the one to put fresh sheets on his bed. I always asked his nurse if there was anything that I could do to make her job with my dad easier. I figured as long as we were there and we were his family, it was better for us to do the nonmedical things for Dad. From what I witnessed over the years, the nurses were super busy and I wanted to lighten their load with at least one patient. This freed them up to take care of their other patients. I know some nurses were uptight about my older sister's shift, (and I didn't blame them. My sister was a real B) but I was never treated with anything other than kindness and gratefulness by the staff. They knew they would not be called into Dad's room for trivial things and that they didn't need to do the routine things like bathing and bed changes. I alway read to Dad when it was my turn to keep his mind occupied. I also brought in a backgammon game and deck of cards for him to kick my butt. I think keeping his mind busy and him happy went a long way toward his ability to handle the hospitalization.
I don't know if there is such a thing as the ability to hire a medical advocate for your sick family member to perform the things my sister did, but if there is, I would highly recommend hiring one to make sure your loved one is getting all they need while hospitalized. It would certainly cut down on the stress surrounding a hospitalization for both the patient and the family. I'm envisioning a retired nurse that could educate the family on what to monitor for their loved one just like we used to do.
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Post by auntkelly on Mar 25, 2022 21:43:36 GMT
I think this is an extreme case. The nurse made a series of extremely careless mistakes which caused a patient's death. From what I've read about this case, the jury's verdict sounds reasonable.
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Post by ~summer~ on Mar 25, 2022 22:11:27 GMT
I’m an RN and I think she was negligent.
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Post by Bridget in MD on Mar 25, 2022 22:54:21 GMT
I think nurses do a really difficult job, and I certainly wouldn’t want to do it. But from the facts as presented in that report, I really don’t see how you could expect there not to be legal consequences for what she did. It obviously wasn’t intentional but she is responsible for that patient's death. This was quite upsetting to read: "Vaught freely admitted to making several errors with the medication that day, but her defense attorney argued the nurse was not acting outside of the norm and systemic problems at Vanderbilt University Medical Center were at least partly to blame for the error."
I totally agree she was at fault. She said she made many mistakes. It also sounded like that equipment often was at fault and that's why they had to override the cabinet or whatever it was to get the medicine. She had to look at labels and just not read what it said. I was curious what the Pea Nurses thought bc so many nurses on FB and Tiktok seem to in shock and are in tears over this judgement. I get the feeling that so many of them feel they are being left to hang out to dry and god forbid they make a mistake? It seems that drs get malpractice insurance - are nurses are not covered too? That's so sad! My daughter does not like it so far. She graduated last year and started in a hospital. They shortened her orientation, and many nurses were leaving. She was in tears after shifts because of the stress and they were given more patients than they had pre covid. She had over 12 hr. shifts and hardly ever had a break to eat. She says her friends from school are not enjoying it either. I think they all wish they majored in something else. It could be due to starting their career during covid. I actually see this a lot on IG stories! Young girls wishing regretting their decision to go into nursing. |
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Post by Lexica on Mar 25, 2022 23:04:00 GMT
maryland, I'm sorry your daughter is struggling. I would think starting her career during Covid is the most stressful time she could have started. Both my mom and older sister were nurses. When I was deciding what to do with my life, I was considering nursing like my mom. She talked me out of it. She gave me several reasons and my sister, who had been working for a couple of years by the time I was ready to choose a future career agreed with Mom and told me not to do it. They both said it was a thankless job that was exhausting and stressful and that you were frequently verbally abused by patients, their families, and doctors. My sister hated that she had to work weekends and holidays and said that she wanted to be out of it by the time she had children so that she could be home for all holidays. Of course this was almost 50 years ago that I was considering it so things have certainly improved for all women in the work place, but back then, I guess it was really hard for nurses. I imagine some things never got better and Covid would just magnify how stressful it could be.
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Post by nightnurse on Mar 25, 2022 23:18:32 GMT
I think this is an extreme case. The nurse made a series of extremely careless mistakes which caused a patient's death. From what I've read about this case, the jury's verdict sounds reasonable. Not to single you out but what does a criminal charge do? Prevent her from making this mistake again? Loss of her nursing license does that. Make Vanderbilt and organizations like that fix the systemic system flaws that allow for these mistakes? Nope. They are free to continue working nurses short staffed, with inadequate training, faulty equipment, and policies and management designed to benefit and protect the organization instead of the patients or nurses. This poor woman does not need or deserve a criminal conviction. And the healthcare industry is going to continue allowing these systemic issues and blaming nurses until there are no nurses left. |
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teddyw
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,875 
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Post by teddyw on Mar 25, 2022 23:23:31 GMT
I’m an RN and I think she was negligent. Me too. She didn’t follow the 5 “rights” of drug administration which is one of the 1st things you learn in nursing school. |
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Post by katiekaty on Mar 26, 2022 0:01:50 GMT
Please don’t judge until you have read ALL of the circumstances involved in the case. Caught shares in the blame along with Vanderbilt hospital. This was reported to the nursing board and a judgement was made. It was later turned over to the legal system, not by the board or family, and then charges brought. The hospital, the physician, medicine dispensing system, nursing administration, nurse managers, nursing protocols and procedures at this hospital, and so much more along with the nurses own error. Would never make a judgement on this nurse or any nurse with moving through every single event in this nurses shift that led to this error. It’s tragic for all parties involved. But, I feel a helluva lot less sympathy for that hospital that did not to help safeguard its patients AND it’s nurses but having a poor med dispensing system, crappy protocols in med administration, lack of in services and education prided to staff, and after all said and done, offers up and points the finger at nurses, nursing staff as a whole as being the problem!
Criminalizing nursing errors does not cure these problems and never will. Safe staffing ratios, proper precpter training, ensuring that there is adequate staff so that nurses get there allotted and legal breaks properly covered by trained supplemental staff, appropriate controls on med dispensing machine and safe med dispensing protocols. All this needs to be in place to ensure patients are treated and cared for and nurses can work in a safe environment.
Covid has done nothing to change what was occurring before the pandemic, and probably on made the country aware of what occurs in the nurse work environment.
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Post by Bridget in MD on Mar 26, 2022 0:32:26 GMT
I think this is an extreme case. The nurse made a series of extremely careless mistakes which caused a patient's death. From what I've read about this case, the jury's verdict sounds reasonable. Not to single you out but what does a criminal charge do? Prevent her from making this mistake again? Loss of her nursing license does that. Make Vanderbilt and organizations like that fix the systemic system flaws that allow for these mistakes? Nope. They are free to continue working nurses short staffed, with inadequate training, faulty equipment, and policies and management designed to benefit and protect the organization instead of the patients or nurses. This poor woman does not need or deserve a criminal conviction. And the healthcare industry is going to continue allowing these systemic issues and blaming nurses until there are no nurses left. Please don’t judge until you have read ALL of the circumstances involved in the case. Caught shares in the blame along with Vanderbilt hospital. This was reported to the nursing board and a judgement was made. It was later turned over to the legal system, not by the board or family, and then charges brought. The hospital, the physician, medicine dispensing system, nursing administration, nurse managers, nursing protocols and procedures at this hospital, and so much more along with the nurses own error. Would never make a judgement on this nurse or any nurse with moving through every single event in this nurses shift that led to this error. It’s tragic for all parties involved. But, I feel a helluva lot less sympathy for that hospital that did not to help safeguard its patients AND it’s nurses but having a poor med dispensing system, crappy protocols in med administration, lack of in services and education prided to staff, and after all said and done, offers up and points the finger at nurses, nursing staff as a whole as being the problem!
Criminalizing nursing errors does not cure these problems and never will. Safe staffing ratios, proper precpter training, ensuring that there is adequate staff so that nurses get there allotted and legal breaks properly covered by trained supplemental staff, appropriate controls on med dispensing machine and safe med dispensing protocols. All this needs to be in place to ensure patients are treated and cared for and nurses can work in a safe environment.Covid has done nothing to change what was occurring before the pandemic, and probably on made the country aware of what occurs in the nurse work environment. this is what I took from the outcry I have seen on social media - that basically this nurse admitted fault, but was hung out to dry. There were MANY other factors that added to this tragedy. |
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Jun 10, 2024 5:09:04 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2022 0:39:42 GMT
Ooh, I'm surprised it wasn't in FL. I swear that Medicare in FL = early death!! I've caught our PCP, a few hospitals and other doctors making deadly mistakes if we didn't catch it. Sad that it's up to the patient to catch these mistakes!!!!!!!!! At one point, DH's PCP told him, "You don't need to go to Moffitt because you're not experiencing cancer right now." What she *meant* was that his cancer was still in the initial stages (idiot) and she didn't want to go out of her medical "bubble" to approve him going to a reputable cancer center! I still think that had he gone from the inception of a cancer diagnosis, it might have somehow saved his life.  |
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Post by auntkelly on Mar 26, 2022 1:39:06 GMT
Not to single you out but what does a criminal charge do? Prevent her from making this mistake again? Loss of her nursing license does that. Make Vanderbilt and organizations like that fix the systemic system flaws that allow for these mistakes? Nope. They are free to continue working nurses short staffed, with inadequate training, faulty equipment, and policies and management designed to benefit and protect the organization instead of the patients or nurses. This poor woman does not need or deserve a criminal conviction. And the healthcare industry is going to continue allowing these systemic issues and blaming nurses until there are no nurses left. As I said in my original post I think this is an extreme case. This nurse, from what I read, made several grossly negligent mistakes which resulted in the death of the patient. I don’t think criminal charges are appropriate in most negligence cases, but I think they were appropriate in this case, from what I have read. I think nursing is a very admirable profession but I don’t think nurses should be exempt from all criminal liability. I think the victim and her family deserved justice in this case and I think justice was served. I don’t mean any disrespect to the nursing community. I just think this particular nurse acted with a complete and total disregard for the safety of this patient. |
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Post by nightnurse on Mar 26, 2022 1:50:03 GMT
As I said in my original post I think this is an extreme case. This nurse, from what I read, made several grossly negligent mistakes which resulted in the death of the patient. I don’t think criminal charges are appropriate in most negligence cases, but I think they were appropriate in this case, from what I have read. I think nursing is a very admirable profession but I don’t think nurses should be exempt from all criminal liability. I think the victim and her family deserved justice in this case and I think justice was served. I don’t mean any disrespect to the nursing community. I just think this particular nurse acted with a complete and total disregard for the safety of this patient. I think there is room For respectful disagreement on this case. I don’t take it personally. I certainly have an understanding of how this happened-the scanner she was supposed to use was broken, which her employers knew. She was being told by her supervisor and the doctor the med was needed now and to go ahead and override before the order was in. In my opinion (opinion only, not meant to belittle anyone else’s differing opinion) justice is not served for the nurse or the family by a criminal charge. It won’t bring the deceased back and as I said, it won’t do anything to prevent this kind of error from happening again. Some crimes are ugly and terrible and fueled by malice and they deserve retribution. Some crimes, like a parent leaving their child in a hot car, are ugly and terrible and regrettable and sad and no malice was intended. The nurse didn’t want to harm her patient. She was trying her best and her best wasn’t good enough for the situation. Suspend or revoke her license, sure. But criminally charged her? I think that’s just cruel and I think she’s definitely being scapegoated because Vanderbilt is protected by a non disclosure agreement. And they made motions to keep lots of information out of the trial, information that was certainly suspicious of their past pattern of behavior. They made zero changes to their processes after this incident, until they were forced to. They declared the death related to the patients brain bleed and not the medication error. |
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Post by katiekaty on Mar 26, 2022 2:37:47 GMT
Ooh, I'm surprised it wasn't in FL. I swear that Medicare in FL = early death!! I've caught our PCP, a few hospitals and other doctors making deadly mistakes if we didn't catch it. Sad that it's up to the patient to catch these mistakes!!!!!!!!! At one point, DH's PCP told him, "You don't need to go to Moffitt because you're not experiencing cancer right now." What she *meant* was that his cancer was still in the initial stages (idiot) and she didn't want to go out of her medical "bubble" to approve him going to a reputable cancer center! I still think that had he gone from the inception of a cancer diagnosis, it might have somehow saved his life.  None of what you are commenting in your post is in any way related to the Redonda Vaught case. Perhaps you should several hours reading through ALL of the literature relating to the case before you comment on a thread about nurses. regarding the comments about your posts, please seriously think twice before maligning all doctors and Medicare with such generalizations. Without Medicare many elderly would surely die. as far as declaring that your DH was not properly or professionally treated, you might want to have a lawyer review his case. Or going to the hospitals and having medical records dept. provide you with someone to explain exactly what is in his medical records, what his treatment plan was and his response to that plan. And review the history that was provided to his doctors. Didn’t he have a prior history of cancer and was metastasis of any cancer considered or was the possibility of cancer in early stages ruled out by labs, scans,b tests that you might not have been aware of at the time? Not every cancer is picked up in early stages—I’ve lost two friends to last stage cancer just after a clean colonoscopy and a clear mammogram. |
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Post by Zee on Mar 26, 2022 3:07:50 GMT
I'm a bit torn on this one. I feel that honest mistakes happen and that criminalizing the mistakes may be setting a dangerous precedent.
BUT!
She used the override function to pull out a med that wasn't remotely the drug needed. She types in three letters, calls it good, and just gives it? She had no idea what she was giving and didn't follow the Five Rights of patient medication, which is Basic Nursing 101. If you don't know what a med is, YOU STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND LOOK IT UP, NO MATTER WHAT ANY DOCTOR SAYS. Nowadays it's as easy as pulling out your phone. Get a coworker to double check anything you're not familiar with. Call the pharmacist. You have options. It's just basic "first do no harm".
This wasn't a life-saving drug where time was of the essence, and beside the fact that you don't just give IV Versed to a 75 year old and send them off for imaging, SHE DID NOT HAVE THE CORRECT MEDICATION AND DIDN'T KNOW WHAT SHE WAS GIVING OR WHAT IT COULD DO. And that's completely on her.
Last night I had a bit of an emergency situation where I got verbal orders and had to use the override on our Accudose. I pulled all three meds, I read the labels, I knew the correct and usual dose, and all ended up well. But I also know there are no meds stocked in there that I'm unfamiliar with. I cannot pull one of these meds and give it without reading the label, no matter how it ended up in my hands. It's fully on ME to ensure I know what I'm giving, and why, and what a reasonable dose is. If you don't, you take a time out. Because a delay of 60 seconds to double check can feel like an eternity when there is a sense of urgency, but some mistakes you just can't take back. I teach every single one of my new nurses this, as one of my first preceptors taught me. She made sure I looked up every single med I was unfamiliar with.
If this case results in process overhauls and causing nurses to use extra caution, I can't feel that's a bad thing. She was negligent beyond what a reasonable nurse should be expected to know and do.
Every time we make an override, it's noted by the pharmacy and we are tracked. Critical care meds are not stocked on inappropriate floors. We are also tracked on how many meds we give without scanning the patient and med (should be zero except in an emergency, off the floor, or barcode unreadable). I hope they have implemented similar measures there. They've been doing this in the hospitals I've worked at for years, so one would hope they've made improvements. It's not new.
Sorry for the really long post. I do feel bad for this probably overworked nurse who never intended to kill someone that day, and for the family of this poor patient who was killed that day.
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Post by auntkelly on Mar 26, 2022 3:38:34 GMT
I think there is room For respectful disagreement on this case. I don’t take it personally. I certainly have an understanding of how this happened-the scanner she was supposed to use was broken, which her employers knew. She was being told by her supervisor and the doctor the med was needed now and to go ahead and override before the order was in. In my opinion (opinion only, not meant to belittle anyone else’s differing opinion) justice is not served for the nurse or the family by a criminal charge. It won’t bring the deceased back and as I said, it won’t do anything to prevent this kind of error from happening again. Some crimes are ugly and terrible and fueled by malice and they deserve retribution. Some crimes, like a parent leaving their child in a hot car, are ugly and terrible and regrettable and sad and no malice was intended. The nurse didn’t want to harm her patient. She was trying her best and her best wasn’t good enough for the situation. Suspend or revoke her license, sure. But criminally charged her? I think that’s just cruel and I think she’s definitely being scapegoated because Vanderbilt is protected by a non disclosure agreement. And they made motions to keep lots of information out of the trial, information that was certainly suspicious of their past pattern of behavior. They made zero changes to their processes after this incident, until they were forced to. They declared the death related to the patients brain bleed and not the medication error. I agree 100% that there is room for respectful disagreement. If this were a simple case of the nurse overriding the system and accidentally pulling the wrong medication, then I would agree she shouldn’t have been prosecuted. However, according to an article I read she made so many mistakes after she pulled the wrong medicine that it is understandable to me why she was prosecuted and why the jury found her guilty. I acknowledge it’s a tough case and reasonable people can disagree. |
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scrappinspidey2
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,511
Location: In the Parlor with the Fly
Mar 18, 2015 19:19:37 GMT
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Post by scrappinspidey2 on Mar 26, 2022 4:15:18 GMT
I'm a bit torn on this one. I feel that honest mistakes happen and that criminalizing the mistakes may be setting a dangerous precedent. BUT! She used the override function to pull out a med that wasn't remotely the drug needed. She types in three letters, calls it good, and just gives it? She had no idea what she was giving and didn't follow the Five Rights of patient medication, which is Basic Nursing 101. If you don't know what a med is, YOU STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND LOOK IT UP, NO MATTER WHAT ANY DOCTOR SAYS. Nowadays it's as easy as pulling out your phone. Get a coworker to double check anything you're not familiar with. Call the pharmacist. You have options. It's just basic "first do no harm". This wasn't a life-saving drug where time was of the essence, and beside the fact that you don't just give IV Versed to a 75 year old and send them off for imaging, SHE DID NOT HAVE THE CORRECT MEDICATION AND DIDN'T KNOW WHAT SHE WAS GIVING OR WHAT IT COULD DO. And that's completely on her. Last night I had a bit of an emergency situation where I got verbal orders and had to use the override on our Accudose. I pulled all three meds, I read the labels, I knew the correct and usual dose, and all ended up well. But I also know there are no meds stocked in there that I'm unfamiliar with. I cannot pull one of these meds and give it without reading the label, no matter how it ended up in my hands. It's fully on ME to ensure I know what I'm giving, and why, and what a reasonable dose is. If you don't, you take a time out. Because a delay of 60 seconds to double check can feel like an eternity when there is a sense of urgency, but some mistakes you just can't take back. I teach every single one of my new nurses this, as one of my first preceptors taught me. She made sure I looked up every single med I was unfamiliar with. If this case results in process overhauls and causing nurses to use extra caution, I can't feel that's a bad thing. She was negligent beyond what a reasonable nurse should be expected to know and do. Every time we make an override, it's noted by the pharmacy and we are tracked. Critical care meds are not stocked on inappropriate floors. We are also tracked on how many meds we give without scanning the patient and med (should be zero except in an emergency, off the floor, or barcode unreadable). I hope they have implemented similar measures there. They've been doing this in the hospitals I've worked at for years, so one would hope they've made improvements. It's not new. Sorry for the really long post. I do feel bad for this probably overworked nurse who never intended to kill someone that day, and for the family of this poor patient who was killed that day. I agree with every word of this. |
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teddyw
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,875
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Post by teddyw on Mar 26, 2022 12:04:50 GMT
Another thing I was taught in addition to the 5 rights of medication administration is that no one cares about your license but you. So you need to be sure you’re using good practice.
I really hope this brings about changes to the override function.
There’s currently a physician on trial here for ordering mega doses of narcotics leading to at least 18 deaths. The nurses & pharmacists have also been fired and some have lost their licenses. They used the override function over & over. The system warned them repeatedly also.
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