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Post by putabuttononit on Mar 5, 2023 20:37:50 GMT
TRIGGER WARNING (mentions self-harm)
My dad is 86 and has pancreatic cancer. With surgeries and various treatments has survived over three years. He’s been a warrior and wants to keep fighting but treatment was just postponed because he’s not strong enough.
Dads best friend got terminal cancer and before it progressed “too far” he shot himself. Then dad’s older brother got cancer. And shot himself. Dad has been threatening to do the same. We are all terrified. He has a counselor but won’t go. We are trying to just not leave him alone but it’s not always possible. He still drives, is fairly independent, and isn’t in pain yet from cancer. He is very weak and has severe emotional pain and anxiety.
The cancer “reoccurred” in his liver so some of the anger and outbursts, emotional spirals etc may be related to how the liver enzymes affect the hormones, brain etc. I don’t know.
Everyone is afraid to say the wrong thing, somehow trigger him into an irreversible act. (He has guns, but taking them has been discussed and rejected. He would just hide one or borrow from a friend etc).
We’ve thought of anti-anxiety medication or getting hospice involved.
So far our strategy is to talk frankly and not hide from this. Ask him when he’s thinking about it, tell him how much we love him and are here for him, and tell him how it (suicide) would affect all of us (including twenty grandchildren and four great grands)
I guess my question is - what else can we even do? The stress on my mom and my sibs and me is heavy. We want to do everything we can. I thought maybe the Peas might suggest something we haven’t thought of yet.
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Post by Zee on Mar 5, 2023 20:50:56 GMT
If I was 86 with pancreatic and liver cancer I would also like to have the option to end it. But of course, we don't do that in most places in the US.
If hospice/palliative care is not involved, they definitely should be so that his wishes can be modified into a care plan that you all can be at peace with. He shouldn't feel like he "has to fight" and should know you all support him getting ready to pass peacefully, with love and support from all of you.
Hugs, I'm sorry for what you're going through
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Post by busy on Mar 5, 2023 20:51:48 GMT
I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this. I know it’s heartbreaking.
I do not think trying to guilt him into wanting to live will work. And painting him, at 86 with a particularly brutal kind of cancer that has metastasized, as a warrior is a lot of pressure. I think he needs to be heard about how he really feels and what he’s really going through.
Therapy and hospice would likely both be helpful (for your father and the whole family), but there are no guarantees.
Guns really should be removed if you think he’s potentially suicidal. What are the laws around physician-assisted suicide in your state? If he does not want to go through the end stages, perhaps there are alternatives that would be planned, assured, and less traumatic for the family.
Good luck to all of you as you navigate this. It’s emotional and devastating.
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peabay
Prolific Pea
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Jun 25, 2014 19:50:41 GMT
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Post by peabay on Mar 5, 2023 21:11:19 GMT
Continue to be open and talk about it - not talking about it will not make it go away and you're not suggesting anything to him he hasn't thought of already.
I'd still remove the guns. That way he can't do anything impulsively.
This country is ridiculous - this man has terminal cancer and has had a long, fruitful life. He should get to determine how it ends.
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Post by Lurkingpea on Mar 5, 2023 21:13:51 GMT
I am sorry. My worry about the guns is if it wasn't successful in what he wanted it to do. If he ended up injuring himself but not dying. Also what about the person who found his body. Does he have life insurance? Would that negate benefits for your mother?
I agree you should contact hospice. See what the laws are in your state.
I am sorry your family and your father are facing this.
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Post by LavenderLayoutLady on Mar 5, 2023 21:27:32 GMT
Very big (((Hugs)))
This is a hard, awful situation.
The most important thing is to let him know that you are on his side. That his feelings are valid.
I would reintroduce the idea of hospice. They can prescribe anti-anxiety meds, and morphine. My mom stayed in her home and hospice nurses visited while I cared for her.
He can be in more control of any pain he has.
And I will say, hospice prescribed liquid morphine for my mother with metastasized liver cancer. The prescribed dose was written on the bottle, but the medicine was administered by me (or would have been mom, if she was capable at that point).
When she passed, and hospice was called to confirm death, the nurse disposed of meds by dumping down the toilet. There was no measuring to make sure "the right amount" was still left.
Patients may talk about choosing suicide because they are afraid and don't want to lose control, or be in agonizing pain.
Letting him know that there are medicinal products that he will have control over may ease his mind and help him see hospice as a palatable choice.
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Post by librarylady on Mar 5, 2023 21:32:04 GMT
Get the guns out of his ability to use them NOW!! Take them to another home. If he decides he wants to try to end his life, make it difficult for him to get the guns.
Remind him of how very sad the family felt when his brother chose suicide. Talk about how painful it will be if he should do that.
Talk about other choices to handle the pain. Get hospice involved so he knows the stronger pain Rx will come when it is too terrible to bear.
Tell him you love him and want him alive as long as possible.
I hope it does not go into his bones. My brother's cancer went into his bones and his last 4 days of life were just horrible.
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peabay
Prolific Pea
Posts: 9,630
Jun 25, 2014 19:50:41 GMT
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Post by peabay on Mar 5, 2023 21:49:51 GMT
I am sorry. My worry about the guns is if it wasn't successful in what he wanted it to do. If he ended up injuring himself but not dying. Also what about the person who found his body. Does he have life insurance? Would that negate benefits for your mother? I agree you should contact hospice. See what the laws are in your state. I am sorry your family and your father are facing this. That's a really important point. I'd hammer that one home with him. |
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Post by littlemama on Mar 5, 2023 21:59:40 GMT
Get Palliative Care or Hospice involved. Remove the guns from the home.
Most of all, respect his wishes. He is 86. If he is ready to end the battle, please support him.
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Post by putabuttononit on Mar 5, 2023 22:06:37 GMT
I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this. I know it’s heartbreaking. I do not think trying to guilt him into wanting to live will work. And painting him, at 86 with a particularly brutal kind of cancer that has metastasized, as a warrior is a lot of pressure. I think he needs to be heard about how he really feels and what he’s really going through. Therapy and hospice would likely both be helpful (for your father and the whole family), but there are no guarantees. Guns really should be removed if you think he’s potentially suicidal. What are the laws around physician-assisted suicide in your state? If he does not want to go through the end stages, perhaps there are alternatives that would be planned, assured, and less traumatic for the family. Good luck to all of you as you navigate this. It’s emotional and devastating. We really do meet him where he’s at, daily. It’s a roller coaster of emotion and we know we aren’t in his shoes. But it’s HIM who insists on each treatment, we just support his decisions and allow him that dignity and autonomy. This last treatment took him out and he hasn’t recovered (and won’t fully), so we suggested he rest and get stronger and then decide. He said “I’m doing it!” And that’s his choice. I wouldn’t choose that but he is adamant. He’s always been very young and active for his age. He was still racing cars at 80. Before the cancer he’d act like he was sixty not eighty. So he is devastated by not being able to physically manage all that he did before. We told him, even without cancer, what do you think men in late eighties do? They grow old and weaker etc. It’s natural and normal regardless. The main thing he’s facing now is anger and fear of the unknown. He had a CT scan Friday and will meet with his oncologist to get results Tuesday. I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts 🥰 |
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quiltz
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,714
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Jun 29, 2014 16:13:28 GMT
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Post by quiltz on Mar 5, 2023 22:17:30 GMT
If he is on pain medication, take away the keys. Impaired driving while under the influence of narcotic drugs is an offense. Of course he is fearful, who wouldn't be, if they are facing their last days and the unknown. |
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Post by flanz on Mar 5, 2023 22:27:28 GMT
I'm so sorry. I really feel for all of you.
I agree with the many who have stated that when a painful death is awaiting us, we should have the option of ending our lives on our own terms. I have heard several anecdotal stories that support what a pp shared... that hospice nurses, and even those in hospital settings, sometimes administer more morphine than is recommended if they know the patient's wishes.
Sending you lots of love as you navigate the tough road ahead.
xo
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scrappinmama
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 26, 2014 12:54:09 GMT
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Post by scrappinmama on Mar 5, 2023 22:29:45 GMT
First of all, I'm so sorry you and your family are going through this. It's so hard. We can choose to end the suffering of a beloved pet, but if we or our loved one is suffering, we don't get that option and it's just not right. We should have the ability to make that choice as humanely as possible.
I would encourage him to start hospice. They will keep him comfortable and they know how to let someone pass away What really angers me is that doctors are so trained to sustain life, they often do so even when it's not in the best interest of the person. Why is someone over 80 being encouraged to get cancer treatment that will maybe prolong the life a little longer, but create a lot of suffering in the process?
My mom is 92 and was encouraged to go on dialysis a few months ago. Why the hell is that even offered at her age? She could have gone to hospice and pass away within a month. Instead they pressed her and encouraged her to try dialysis. She is suffering. And even though we know that she isn't mentally there enough to understand what is going on, the doctors say that she is and can make her own decisions. So we have to sit and watch her wither away. Trying to manage a sick elderly parent is so difficult. Encourage your dad to go into hospice. Have him meet with them and it may give him the peace of mind that he needs to make that decision. And definitely remove all guns from the home. I pray that your dad has peace and can pass without further suffering.
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Post by Lexica on Mar 5, 2023 22:34:10 GMT
It is sad to me that people who are terminal and in pain have to resort to a gun to end that pain. I am 100% for assisted termination of life if the person has a terminal disease and is in a lot of pain. Let them make the decision to go with dignity, peacefully in a location of their choosing by simply receiving an injection or swallowing a few pills. No one is better off by forcing them to exist in pain. In my opinion, that is.
Can you talk about what other options he might have in his state? Options that allow him to be in control of how and when he decides he is done? I would think that just knowing you are trying to help him find a better way to be in control and end things might help his attitude.
I’m very sorry you and your family are facing this. I hope you are able to assist him into a peace-filled exit.
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AllieC
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by AllieC on Mar 5, 2023 22:38:30 GMT
Oh my goodness this is such a horrible situation for everyone. I am so thankful that most states in Australia now have voluntary assisted dying - there are very strict criteria to meet but would be immensely helpful in this scenario.
Not sure what to suggest that hasn't been already. Sending lots of strength.
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Post by mom on Mar 5, 2023 22:40:25 GMT
I am really sorry you are dealing with this. It must be so painful to watch your dad suffer.
IMHO you need to get Hospice involved. They have seen it all and dealt with it all.
While other have mentioned getting the guns out, just know that if your dad is adamant on self harm, then he will find a way wether it be overdose, hanging, etc.
Now, as someone who's mother dealt with liver failure and all the side effects of that --- once the liver is so badly compromised that the enzymes are out of wack, confusion and depression and outbursts can take over. With my mom, I was her primary caregiver and I just had to remind myself that mom isn't mom anymore and just do the best I could. We did get Hospice involved and it was the best choice for us. It allowed mom to die (what she wanted) quicker than continuing to get treatment, but with dignity and relatively painfree.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Mar 5, 2023 23:01:58 GMT
Get the guns out of his ability to use them NOW!! Take them to another home. If he decides he wants to try to end his life, make it difficult for him to get the guns. Remind him of how very sad the family felt when his brother chose suicide. Talk about how painful it will be if he should do that.
Talk about other choices to handle the pain. Get hospice involved so he knows the stronger pain Rx will come when it is too terrible to bear.
Tell him you love him and want him alive as long as possible.I hope it does not go into his bones. My brother's cancer went into his bones and his last 4 days of life were just horrible. I'm sorry but there's a lot here I disagree with as one who's suffered through several terminal illnesses of loved ones. I absolutely will not live as long as possible. I will prioritize quality of life first and foremost and will not hesitate to use the options available in my state when quality of life is not long possible. There is so so much guilt layered on those with terminal illnesses - it's just not fair to them. OP if your father wants continued treatment that is obviously his choice, but having a frank discussion about his desires for end of live are critical right now - in many states, a gun is NOT required when one decides continued treatment is not viable. He should know that you support whatever choices he makes - the reality is we're all going to die - that's something our society wants to ignore but is the truth - he needs to come to terms with what makes sense for HIM - he's going to die of pancreatic cancer - that's the reality - he has a handful of months to live - how he decides to spend them are his decision and the family needs to support it. I'm sorry OP - cancer sucks - it really really really sucks |
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carhoch
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Be yourself everybody else is already taken
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Post by carhoch on Mar 5, 2023 23:34:26 GMT
First I want to say that I am sorry , I know how hard it is .
I comme from a place where euthanasia is legal ,my grandma and my mom got help crossing over , I had long conversations with my mom about this and she was very clear that she didn’t want to live like this anymore, her quality of life was really poor and we surrounded her with love and let her go , I don’t think there’s nothing you can do if that’s his choice, it’s his life .
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Post by Delta Dawn on Mar 5, 2023 23:39:40 GMT
If a violent gun death scares you (as it does me!!!) what would he said about medical aid in dying? It can happen in time and he gets to make all the decisions. We have a good friend who just passed that way and his wife and children were all part of the decision. I am so sorry. This is just one other option to consider if the pain becomes debilitating.
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Post by Spongemom Scrappants on Mar 6, 2023 0:44:23 GMT
My father opted to take steps to hasten his death in 1994 from prostate cancer metastasized to bone cancer with a tumor on the spine. My mother and I (I'm an only child) were fully supportive of his decision.
My mother died in July here at my home after slowly fading away despite her desire to fight death every step of the way.
The greatest gift I could give each of them was to support their decisions about their own deaths - even though they each took vastly different approaches to it.
Death is hard Losing our loved ones is hard. I feel for what you are going through and what you are facing.
I would encourage you to have very frank conversations with him. And to honor his decisions. I also strongly echo the advice many others have given to involve hospice. We used their services in both my father's and my mother's deaths.
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mimima
Drama Llama
Stay Gold, Ponyboy
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Post by mimima on Mar 6, 2023 0:56:40 GMT
Huge hugs, I'm so sorry.
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edie3
Drama Llama
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Post by edie3 on Mar 6, 2023 1:06:03 GMT
I have no advice, but thinking of you and your family.
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Post by lisae on Mar 6, 2023 1:16:43 GMT
I would talk to Hospice. However, if there is an option for him to continue treatment, he can not do that and be a hospice patient at the same time. If treatment is definitely out, hospice can help him be more comfortable when the pain does come.
It's a very tough situation. I'm so sorry.
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Post by epeanymous on Mar 6, 2023 1:34:37 GMT
If he is determined to end his life, I would look into legal or quasi-legal alternatives for him while making sure of course to connect him to any hospice resources, therapy, etc he might want. The thing is I am really sympathetic to his suicidal ideation but shooting yourself means someone unexpectedly finds him in a really disturbing condition that they will need therapy for years to deal with. And someone else has to clean it up. How horrible for the people in those positions if it's avoidable.
I am sorry you and he are dealing with this. My father had terminal cancer and was pretty much fine for 2+ years and then declined suddenly into death over two months tops.
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Post by redshoes on Mar 6, 2023 1:35:01 GMT
Are his Dr's willing to be frank with him about his prognosis? Is treatment likely to stop the progression of his cancer or give more time with more side effects, etc. Perhaps this would help him decide how he wants to spend his next months and years. I think some Dr's don't want to be honest about prognosis and just keep treating, without consideration of age/quality of life, etc.
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moodyblue
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Jun 26, 2014 21:07:23 GMT
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Post by moodyblue on Mar 6, 2023 1:42:03 GMT
Get the guns out of his ability to use them NOW!! Take them to another home. If he decides he wants to try to end his life, make it difficult for him to get the guns. Remind him of how very sad the family felt when his brother chose suicide. Talk about how painful it will be if he should do that.
Talk about other choices to handle the pain. Get hospice involved so he knows the stronger pain Rx will come when it is too terrible to bear.
Tell him you love him and want him alive as long as possible.I hope it does not go into his bones. My brother's cancer went into his bones and his last 4 days of life were just horrible. I'm sorry but there's a lot here I disagree with as one who's suffered through several terminal illnesses of loved ones. I absolutely will not live as long as possible. I will prioritize quality of life first and foremost and will not hesitate to use the options available in my state when quality of life is not long possible. There is so so much guilt layered on those with terminal illnesses - it's just not fair to them. OP if your father wants continued treatment that is obviously his choice, but having a frank discussion about his desires for end of live are critical right now - in many states, a gun is NOT required when one decides continued treatment is not viable. He should know that you support whatever choices he makes - the reality is we're all going to die - that's something our society wants to ignore but is the truth - he needs to come to terms with what makes sense for HIM - he's going to die of pancreatic cancer - that's the reality - he has a handful of months to live - how he decides to spend them are his decision and the family needs to support it. I'm sorry OP - cancer sucks - it really really really sucks I am in agreement with Darcy. At his age, no one should be guilting him into trying to live as long as possible no matter what that means for him. Equally, no one should be assuming he wants to be done with treatment just because he’s 86. It is his decision to make; what any one of us would do is not relevant. if he wants to continue treatment after talking to his doctor, then hospice will not be involved at this point, other than maybe in discussing the options. Palliative care may be where you need to look. I think that people who opt for suicide in this situation often do so because they know how awful it may be or fear what might happen. My husband's doctor chose suicide when he had pancreatic cancer; it’s kind of assumed that he, knowing how painful his (short) future would be, chose to end it when he still could. I am so sorry when anyone has to deal with cancer like this. It sucks. It’s awful as the patient, and it’s awful to watch and help a loved one through it. Please talk to your dad and find out what he really wants to do. Let him know that you will support any choice he makes, and that there is help, whether through palliative care, or hospice care, for whatever he faces. He can be in charge as much as possible, and there are options for pain control. Tell him you love him and want to be there for him no matter what he wants. |
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pantsonfire
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Post by pantsonfire on Mar 6, 2023 2:22:29 GMT
In no way should anyone in your family put more emotional strain on you dad with how they feel about his desire to die.
Could you imagine being in so much pain and so much anguish that you would rather die and then people bombard you with their emotional stress?
Or tell you that you are being selfish for wanting to die and not fight?
Physician-assisted suicide, or "medical aid in dying" is legal in eleven jurisdictions: California, Colorado, District of Columbia, Hawaii, Montana, Maine, New Jersey, New Mexico, Oregon, Vermont, and Washington.
Each state has its own laws.
I would suggest speaking with his team and reaching out to the states above to see if they can be of any help if this is what your dad chooses for himself.
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Nanner
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Post by Nanner on Mar 6, 2023 3:28:09 GMT
My father died almost a month ago from cancer. Before he was moved from the hospital to hospice, he asked the doctor if it was an option for him to end it now. The doctor told him that yes, he had that option.
He didn't, but died 19 days later in hospice. I'm glad he had that option if he'd decided that was what he wanted.
I'm sorry you're dealing with this.
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Post by gizzy on Mar 6, 2023 4:42:41 GMT
My Mom died from pancreatic cancer after almost 5 years, after undergoing a whipple and chemo. It also metastasized to her liver. I tell you that so you can understand that I may have an understanding of what you and your Dad are going through. I wish he was willing to talk with a support group. They really are beneficial for sharing what you think you can't share with your loved ones.
Please take Zee's advice and bring in hospice/palliative care. They were able to help my Mom go peacefully. That may be something he's worried about. I don't know.
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Post by hjs on Mar 6, 2023 4:48:23 GMT
At least consult with hospice and palliative care. You may be surprised with what they can tell you about their programs. And what assistance they can offer the family in coming to terms with it
And at 86 your dad has had a long life. Now at the end of it I hope you can give him the gift of autonomy to determine how he will meet the end
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