quiltz
Drama Llama
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Posts: 6,735
Location: CANADA
Jun 29, 2014 16:13:28 GMT
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Post by quiltz on Aug 4, 2023 15:57:36 GMT
During the pandemic I accepted science's advise. I stayed home from church, I masked and I social distanced. There were in my church, as there were in every church, varying opinions on the situation. Many felt that churches should not be closed and casinos allowed open. I think we will be dealing with those varying opinions and exactly where science was right and where it went wrong for years to come. I live in Canada and the casinos were closed during the pandemic as well as almost all the churches. Yes, there were a few churches, 1 in particular that didn't obey the government's rules. This church is currently in the court system as the Supreme Court ruled against them. There are always *those special people* who think that *they* know better than the rest, as snowflakes seem to do. When church's were able to open, you had to secure your attendance by pre-registering via on-line to ensure that the # of people and spacing was adhered to. Services are currently still online and also in person.
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Post by donnab on Aug 4, 2023 17:16:31 GMT
I haven't read through all the replies but was just perusing Amazon and found this book: The Great Dechurching
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Post by mammajamma on Aug 4, 2023 17:41:32 GMT
………And sinners will not enter the gates of heaven. That applies to liars, thieves, gossipers and anything else God calls sin………….. ……….However, God also says he LOVES those sinners. And that means I am to do so as well. But not affirm them in their sins. Because that is NOT love…..... As I said in my previous post, I’m sorting out where I am with everything. I was seriously thrown for a loop during the worst days of the pandemic by people I considered good, strong, moral Christians. Their words and actions were completely opposite what I would have expected and I have so many questions that I’ve never received satisfactory answers to. The way you describe your beliefs is very similar to the people I’m talking about. I don’t want to make any false assumptions here, so do you mind sharing what you and your church’s position was on masking, social distancing, respecting the advice of medical experts, etc.? This is one of my primary problems that I’m having a problem just “getting over”. For twenty years of marriage, we were faithful attendees of church. We are more conservative to middle ground on our interpretation of the Bible. Many people that may have been along my same line of biblical interpretation, did completely opposite of what I would have thought was the compassionate, look out for your neighbor approach to the pandemic. I lost a close friend to pandemic differences, as she went off the deep end of anti-vax and anti-mask. Our home church went virtual for about 6 months and while I appreciated that, I did not understand why it went from virtual to full on indoor worship like nothing happened. All before everyone had a chance to be vaccinated and while local health authorities were begging people to still take precautions as hospitals filled up. The church just opened up and dropped COVID from their vocabulary. I have never understood why Christians didn’t take to local parks, church grounds, to worship outdoors, and spaced. We had the perfect opportunity to show the world that God is everywhere. I have never read in the Bible that you shall only worship God inside the church pew under a steeple and with stained glass windows. Church could have been simplified. Like a pastor on a wooden box and bring your own chairs. I wouldn’t step foot into the church during the surges and no restrictions and speak of COVID. It made me feel the church was more focused on attendance (giving) than caring for each other. Background : I was fairly recently done with 2 years of breast cancer treatments and surgery. Our next door neighbor is currently 99. She was a shut-in. We were her support during the worst of the pandemic. I don’t mean to toot our own horn, but I wanted my kids (ages 9 and 4 when COVID started) to see that we don’t do the easy and popular thing. We do what we are convicted. That we look out for those that need more support. I have felt like a complete outlier during COVID and thus our stance on church. I have not been mad at God. I’m frustrated with the people. I still have a grudge because I have not been able to reconcile this in my head.
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DEX
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,357
Aug 9, 2014 23:13:22 GMT
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Post by DEX on Aug 4, 2023 18:05:27 GMT
I've read all these posts with interest. I know I will be an outlier in this group, but I just need to speak up, not necessarily for the church per se, but for the church's God. Jesus is the best friend I have in this world. He is as real to me as your own family is to most of you. He fills my life with joy every day. I do go to church. Every week. But no church will ever keep me that doesn't follow the Bible completely. The Bible is a great gift from God. It is a roadmap to heaven. Ignoring that roadmap is a great peril. I think most people believe they are going to heaven (if they actually believe in heaven), but Jesus, Himself said in His famed Sermon on the Mount that very few people will find the way there. That's because they don't read the roadmap. So that means to ME that if God says something is a sin--it is a sin! Pure and simple. And sinners will not enter the gates of heaven. That applies to liars, thieves, gossipers and anything else God calls sin. However, God also says he LOVES those sinners. And that means I am to do so as well. But not affirm them in their sins. Because that is NOT love. Every single one of us is walking towards judgment. There is no escaping it. Revelation talks about the Great White Throne judgment. I do not want to appear before that one. So I read my Bible and ask God to help me walk the path He has set before me. As I said, I do go to church. And yes, the church is full of hypocrites and sinners. Like me. I don't go to look at them. I go to worship my Creator who fills my life with joy. Who died for me so that I CAN enter the gates of heaven. Some of the stories a number of you have related here that happened to you in church are horrific. But please remember, GOD did not do those things to you. PEOPLE did. I just want to affirm that God means what He says. He doesn't change His rules because you or I don't like them. There is a price for entering heaven. That is giving yourself completely to God and allowing Him to make the necessary changes in you to fit you for that wonderful place. One thing that you will miss by not going to church (and sadly, you might miss it IN church as well as so many pastors don't talk about it) is the very nearness of His return. But I can tell you that Bible scholars all over the world are seeing the signs and are believing that the return is very soon. It would be a horrible thing not to be ready. Again, Jesus is my very best friend. He walks with me in every dark valley. I am so glad that your God gives you such comfort. I have known you to be a thoughtful and gracious participant on the board. I want to acknowledge how much this board has changed for you and how hard it may have been.
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mimima
Drama Llama
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Stay Gold, Ponyboy
Posts: 5,034
Jun 25, 2014 19:25:50 GMT
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Post by mimima on Aug 4, 2023 18:46:03 GMT
Exactly this! I have clawed back to church attendance because it is very important to me. However, I watched as parishes were torn apart with arguing over masks, social distancing, receiving communion, etc. I continue to mask often as we are literally told in the bible to lay down our life for other people, and to watch people disregard this basic tenant of faith has been challenging, to say the least.
Huge hugs, I appreciate what you have done. Thank you.
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Post by katiejane on Aug 4, 2023 19:10:07 GMT
Misogynist and dangerous teaching and the anti gay rubbish. While ignoring all the other stuff.I had enough of the gaslighting from the leadership.
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Post by librarylady on Aug 4, 2023 19:34:48 GMT
My co-worker has a simple situation. She wants to go to church weekly but doesn’t because her SO doesn’t want to go. I am sure there are many couples like that. If she really wanted to go, then she should go alone. I went alone for most of my adult life. It is not the plague she might think it is.
If someone asks where her husband is, the reply is, "He was not able to come today."
Doesn't matter if the reason he was not able to come is because he didn't want to......
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Post by katlady on Aug 4, 2023 19:41:26 GMT
My co-worker has a simple situation. She wants to go to church weekly but doesn’t because her SO doesn’t want to go. I am sure there are many couples like that. If she really wanted to go, then she should go alone. I went alone for most of my adult life. It is not the plague she might think it is.
If someone asks where her husband is, the reply is, "He was not able to come today."
She doesn’t go anywhere without him outside of work. They do everything together. She is not a weak women. In meetings she is very vocal, and assertive. But all her non-work time is for them to spend together, so she says.
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mich5481
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,633
Oct 2, 2017 23:20:46 GMT
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Post by mich5481 on Aug 4, 2023 21:22:51 GMT
If she really wanted to go, then she should go alone. I went alone for most of my adult life. It is not the plague she might think it is.
If someone asks where her husband is, the reply is, "He was not able to come today."
She doesn’t go anywhere without him outside of work. They do everything together. She is not a weak women. In meetings she is very vocal, and assertive. But all her non-work time is for them to spend together, so she says. 😱😬🚩 I have no words for that situation.
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cycworker
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,378
Jun 26, 2014 0:42:38 GMT
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Post by cycworker on Aug 5, 2023 1:15:08 GMT
I have so many thoughts about this topic. I'll try to get them sorted & then respond.
I will say I still believe in God, and I still think of myself as a follower of Jesus. I just can't deal with the evangelical movement anymore .
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cynthia1218
Junior Member
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Posts: 52
Feb 19, 2016 2:00:59 GMT
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Post by cynthia1218 on Aug 5, 2023 2:30:52 GMT
leviticus 15:22
When this was taught to my middle schooler in sunday school class for middle school this was the last time we went back. Basically they said if you are on your period right now the chair you sit on is unclean.
What the heck???
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mamallama
Full Member
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Posts: 138
Sept 14, 2018 7:30:33 GMT
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Post by mamallama on Aug 5, 2023 8:37:43 GMT
I’m writing this without reading through all the comments because it’s 2:30am. We quit going with covid and when things started back up, I felt a lot like you do. 10:00am on a Sunday was my sleep in day, I could watch it on tv, I wanted to sit in my pjs and have a lazy day or catch up on chores. The few times I did go, it was weird because so many of the regulars weren’t there for various reasons.
However, my daughter invited me to our church women’s retreat and I got to know new people there and realized that I really missed it. I had fallen so far away that I wasn’t reading my Bible or praying and honestly it was affecting me on a personal level. So I started back. The post covid church felt like a whole new landscape but it’s one I actually really like. Our church is eclectic. There’s no other word for it. Lots of people with rough backgrounds, people who deal with ADHD or mental health issues, and then those who are married to us crazies. Lol. Seriously though there are people from all walks of life, we are a small church and I just feel like I fit there. Since I started back I have made my focus to genuinely love people. All people. I also know people who have left because of “church hurt” and I totally get it. People can be judgmental and holier than thou in churches but we don’t really have that happening.
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Post by ntsf on Aug 5, 2023 15:20:57 GMT
lots of churches here in idaho met outside for a long time.. they were hit hard with covid.
in. my small church in sf.. we were out for months. it was only last month we took off the mask requirement.. most members are older and we don't have good ventilation.
so depends on the church.. I would say my denomination (pcusa) believe in science so lots of remote, lots of outside, lots of masking all through pandemic.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Aug 5, 2023 15:35:23 GMT
My co-worker has a simple situation. She wants to go to church weekly but doesn’t because her SO doesn’t want to go. I am sure there are many couples like that. If she really wanted to go, then she should go alone. I went alone for most of my adult life. It is not the plague she might think it is.
If someone asks where her husband is, the reply is, "He was not able to come today."
Doesn't matter if the reason he was not able to come is because he didn't want to...... This was my family growing up. My mom would drag all of the older kids to church while dad stayed home with the younger ones until they were old enough to sit quietly and behave. Our church never had a Sunday school program. Even after my youngest brother and I were old enough to go to church, our dad still stayed home. I don’t recall him ever attending church with us. My mom attended regularly on Sundays and on holy days.
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Post by longtimenopea on Aug 5, 2023 17:49:26 GMT
I think most people believe they are going to heaven (if they actually believe in heaven), but Jesus, Himself said in His famed Sermon on the Mount that very few people will find the way there. That's because they don't read the roadmap. So that means to ME that if God says something is a sin--it is a sin! Pure and simple. And sinners will not enter the gates of heaven. That applies to liars, thieves, gossipers and anything else God calls sin. However, God also says he LOVES those sinners. And that means I am to do so as well. But not affirm them in their sins. Because that is NOT love. Every single one of us is walking towards judgment. There is no escaping it. Revelation talks about the Great White Throne judgment. I do not want to appear before that one. So I read my Bible and ask God to help me walk the path He has set before me. As I said, I do go to church. And yes, the church is full of hypocrites and sinners. Like me. I don't go to look at them. I go to worship my Creator who fills my life with joy. Who died for me so that I CAN enter the gates of heaven. Some of the stories a number of you have related here that happened to you in church are horrific. But please remember, GOD did not do those things to you. PEOPLE did. I just want to affirm that God means what He says. He doesn't change His rules because you or I don't like them. There is a price for entering heaven. That is giving yourself completely to God and allowing Him to make the necessary changes in you to fit you for that wonderful place. I think part of the root of my own deconstruction was - if we can believe in Jesus and still be insufficient for God’s company, then that is really an insufficiency of the sacrifice of Jesus. If I looked at my own child who I made and said the price of relationship with me was perfection on my own terms, and pick that or I will let you suffer forever - you would say I was a monster, and cruel, and a narcissist. It is difficult for me to reconcile the idea of an omnipotent, omniscient God who is also good in character with the idea that somehow that same God would damn people for all eternity because they did not “allow Him to make the necessary changes” many of which are defined by man - I was able for a long time to hold that tension but have been less able to justify it as time has gone on. To think that God made us deserving of suffering, but then says, love me perfectly and I’ll save you - that isn’t relationship, that’s coercion. I can’t personally accept the idea that Jesus’s sacrifice can be made insufficient by man’s imperfection, not if the character of God is good. This leads me to the belief that Jesus’s sacrifice is sufficient for all, and that God’s welcome is for all, and that our sanctification and our outward conduct matter primarily as a means of God making the future perfection visible in the current world. Additionally, I acknowledge that it is people who have done many of the atrocious things in the name of God and the church, but I also have to acknowledge that the church has allowed this to happen, has made excuses for it, covered it up, made room for it. And then to present like only conservative Christians are the ones who have a lock on the moral issues of our day? Hard to swallow. It’s what has driven me to the idea that God is good, Jesus is love incarnate, and all this idea of perfection and control and conformity and who’s in and who’s out has driven us away from the real character of God even if it is evidence of us trying to get it right.
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Post by sleepingbooty on Aug 5, 2023 18:38:26 GMT
Thanks to everyone for sharing their stories. As a non-believer (never was) and never-attender, I have no place in this thread but I did want to say that I heard so many of you lamenting the need for community and for doing something for/with your community. While I can't comment on the spiritual needs expressed in some replies (although they exist on a different level for some non-believers as well), I did want to let you all know that the humanist core values that have been expressed were received with warmth and a shared love for humankind on my non-believing side. I hear you, I get you, I value the same basic "belief" in each other as you. We are all much more alike than some people would like (and preach) us to think. That's all. I hope it was ok to go a little off-topic, jeremysgirl. If not, I'm ok with deleting this post, just let me know through DM.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Aug 6, 2023 13:17:03 GMT
I think most people believe they are going to heaven (if they actually believe in heaven), but Jesus, Himself said in His famed Sermon on the Mount that very few people will find the way there. That's because they don't read the roadmap. So that means to ME that if God says something is a sin--it is a sin! Pure and simple. And sinners will not enter the gates of heaven. That applies to liars, thieves, gossipers and anything else God calls sin. However, God also says he LOVES those sinners. And that means I am to do so as well. But not affirm them in their sins. Because that is NOT love. Every single one of us is walking towards judgment. There is no escaping it. Revelation talks about the Great White Throne judgment. I do not want to appear before that one. So I read my Bible and ask God to help me walk the path He has set before me. As I said, I do go to church. And yes, the church is full of hypocrites and sinners. Like me. I don't go to look at them. I go to worship my Creator who fills my life with joy. Who died for me so that I CAN enter the gates of heaven. Some of the stories a number of you have related here that happened to you in church are horrific. But please remember, GOD did not do those things to you. PEOPLE did. I just want to affirm that God means what He says. He doesn't change His rules because you or I don't like them. There is a price for entering heaven. That is giving yourself completely to God and allowing Him to make the necessary changes in you to fit you for that wonderful place. I think part of the root of my own deconstruction was - if we can believe in Jesus and still be insufficient for God’s company, then that is really an insufficiency of the sacrifice of Jesus. If I looked at my own child who I made and said the price of relationship with me was perfection on my own terms, and pick that or I will let you suffer forever - you would say I was a monster, and cruel, and a narcissist. It is difficult for me to reconcile the idea of an omnipotent, omniscient God who is also good in character with the idea that somehow that same God would damn people for all eternity because they did not “allow Him to make the necessary changes” many of which are defined by man - I was able for a long time to hold that tension but have been less able to justify it as time has gone on. To think that God made us deserving of suffering, but then says, love me perfectly and I’ll save you - that isn’t relationship, that’s coercion. I can’t personally accept the idea that Jesus’s sacrifice can be made insufficient by man’s imperfection, not if the character of God is good. This leads me to the belief that Jesus’s sacrifice is sufficient for all, and that God’s welcome is for all, and that our sanctification and our outward conduct matter primarily as a means of God making the future perfection visible in the current world. Additionally, I acknowledge that it is people who have done many of the atrocious things in the name of God and the church, but I also have to acknowledge that the church has allowed this to happen, has made excuses for it, covered it up, made room for it. And then to present like only conservative Christians are the ones who have a lock on the moral issues of our day? Hard to swallow. It’s what has driven me to the idea that God is good, Jesus is love incarnate, and all this idea of perfection and control and conformity and who’s in and who’s out has driven us away from the real character of God even if it is evidence of us trying to get it right. I think you’ve hit the nail squarely on the head for me as well. You’ve said it all so much better than I would have, so I’ll just add a ![:yeahthat:](//storage.proboards.com/5645536/images/yrGoHMAelQz8f2Qt0sjb.jpg) .
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Post by Spongemom Scrappants on Aug 6, 2023 18:44:46 GMT
This has been such an interesting thread. I've 'enjoyed' reading other's stories and found much of it though-provoking. I'm going to tell my story as the reason I originally stopped attending was not due to unbelief... but it did lead me right to it.
I grew up in the church as the daughter of Lutheran minister. I did every role a lay person could do in the church through the years even after moving to the Episcopal church after deciding my children would benefit from a larger church with more programs for children and youth. I took it all very seriously and tried my mightiest to have that 'peace' that everyone kept promising would come with true faith.
Only, life intervened and I questioned it all from a very early age. Yet I continued to attend and participate... and try. But the older I got and the more I questioned, it was hard. Most people in the church did not want to engage my questions. They had pat answers at best and at worst seemed to feel like my possible unbelief would rub off on them.
My father died when I was in my early thirties. He had left the church to get his doctorate and become a mental health counselor about twenty years before that. He was still ordained - just no active role in the church. Looking back now, I desperately wish I could talk with him about why he made that switch. I have my suppositions, but I'd give just about anything to have that conversation.
I quit attending when my first husband and I separated. The lack of support from so many of the church people did nothing to encourage me to stay in their folds. Once I quit physically attending, I seemed to have the scales fall from my eyes so to speak. It became abundantly clear to me that I did not believe. I didn't believe in virtually any of it. And wouldn't you know it? After so many years of looking in the wrong place, I finally found my peace there. I found my peace in unbelief.
I now like to call myself an apathist. It describes perfectly my idea that I just no longer believe. And I don't care.
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cycworker
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,378
Jun 26, 2014 0:42:38 GMT
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Post by cycworker on Aug 8, 2023 0:48:49 GMT
longtimenopea - you have nailed it for me, too. I shall also share my story. Grew up Anglican. Rule was you had to go until the end of Grade 7. I can't remember if that was the arbitrary time because that was as far as Sunday school went in that church, or because it's when you had first communion, or both? Either way I went through Sunday school and I am pretty sure I did continue for a little while even after that. And I did communion classes & had my First Communion & a little family celebration of that. At some point, a wonderful man from that church committed suicide. He had been suffering from depression & he had access to a gun & killed himself. I ended up hearing the rumblings that 'He didn't truly have faith or he wouldn't have done that.' Basically a true follower/believer wouldn't experience anxiety or depression would never commit suicide. I told my mom I was done. At some point as I was considering going back. Pretty sure It's because my brother was at the age my parents wanted him to go (though this time it was to a Catholic church - my dad is Catholic & the agreement was daughter would go to Mom's church, son to Dad's - arbitrary way of deciding, but also not uncommon from what I've been told). And the Catholic church, steeped in history & gorgeous architecture as it is, intrigued 13 year old me. But the Moral Majority stuff was happening around that time - or at least I was becoming aware of it - and I just... I had a bad feeling about it all. Even though I had this sense of this notion that Church was & is an agent of social control. So I didn't go. I did, however, continue to believe (still do... in fact had a good talk with God this afternoon). I just continued to pray regularly, both formally & informally, in the sense of lying awake on my back, looking up at the ceiling, chatting with God about... stuff. Whatever was on my mind. Very "Are You There, God? It's Me, Tania." LOL. Fast forward to the 1998-99 school year. I got a job that could've & should've been my dream job, but I ran into awful people who sabotaged me at every turn. The only good thing about it was there was a church that met at the school in the gym on Sunday. Pastor even grew up with my mom. Good guy. So eventually, I realized I needed to get back to being in the company of a body of believers. That church, and the next one, didn't fit. The church at the school was a good fit in many ways, but the acoustics in the gym were just too much for me. The next one I left when someone made a derogatory remark about the LGBT community, and me for supporting them (it got out I missed church one Sunday to participate in the AIDS Walk to support AIDS Vancouver Island). I never went back. But God wasn't done... I was driving that very week & I saw a sign on a church marquee that said, "Find your Life's Purpose." That totally is in line with who I am. I am ALL about figuring out that kind of stuff, asking those deep questions... I had to check it out. I fell in love. I stayed until 2020. Fast forward to today. I am a member in name only. Starting in 2013, in response to Canada legalizing same-sex marriage in 2013, they commissioned a report on human sexuality. It came out in 2016, a year after legalization in 2015 in the USA. Somehow that let to another working group study, and in 2022 (would've been a bit earlier, but Covid) they declared that the church's teaching were to be granted confessional status. The implication of that is as member, you are saying that you agree. We have a saying, 'In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity (i.e. Love). Anything non-confessional was considered non essential. So for folks like me who support marriage equality were now in a pickle. It's not AS bad for me because I'm not an elder or deacon & have zero interest in becoming one. But I can't be there knowing I so fundamentally disagree with what they've done. We are in the process leaving the denomination & affiliating with a branch of the Presbyterian church that is affirming of the LGBT community. The only reason I've not renounced my membership is because I want to vote when the time comes. The denomination has all these rules in place re: how to disaffiliate & they're not allowing us to hold our vote yet. We have to follow their process or it'll become a legal/financial nightmare. Our pastor as already begun the process of getting her credentials with the Presbyterian church, and she is in fact doing some part time work with them. I have checked out the church we will be affiliating with & I love it. Recognize some folks from my CRC church who are already there.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Jun 17, 2024 16:37:58 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2023 0:56:51 GMT
The church disappointed me. The church isn’t a building. A church is people. Yes…imperfect people. I struggled with hypocrisy from the time I was a little girl. I then sat next to a man (my ex) that was one person at church but once we got home, I never saw the person that everyone saw on Sundays.
But probably the biggest thing for me is the fact that in the early days of my divorce, my church abandoned me. I was active and involved. I sang in the choir. I taught Sunday school for kids. I volunteered for VBS and the Consignment sale twice a year. I gave so much of myself to that church yet as we were divorcing, not one person from that church reached out to check on me or offer friendship.
It truly made me sick.
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