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Post by Lurkingpea on Sept 27, 2023 3:57:31 GMT
Good update! I was planning on talking to Mom at drop off today. Asking if we could have an informal touch base conversation. She actually emailed me before school started asking for a meeting herself. When we spoke she mentioned she thought he might need to be evaluated for ADD or "something else" and asked if I should initiate that or she should. We had a nice talk and we are getting the process started. Hopefully we can get some answers and at least get some strategies put in place in the meantime. I appreciate all your input.
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Post by kluski on Sept 27, 2023 4:17:07 GMT
You absolutely can not label it. You simply present your observations and concerns. You may choose to seek support from admin if you’re uncomfortable. You may suggest that you would like to reach out to the sp ed dept for suggestions on how to best support their child. Explain that may include a visit. You may also ask if they see similar behaviors at home.
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Post by Basket1lady on Sept 27, 2023 4:24:55 GMT
I don’t have any real advice in the situation, but our son was diagnosed with Asperger‘s when he was 12. (His preferred label.)
We had moved so much when he was younger that I thought his social issues were due to the moves. We were also pretty involved parents and reached out to other kids for play dates and such to try and help him make friends because we moved so often and he was always the new kid.
He is incredibly smart, and we Blamed his lack of social skills on that. He had a lot of trouble relating to other kids, and was not empathetic, and we just blamed it on him being ahead of the curve and more mature. But he was also immature in other ways and didn’t deal well with rejection or failure. It took another parent, asking me how long he had been diagnosed for that caused us to seek a diagnosis.
I went back and asked his fifth grade teacher (Who was a former sped teacher) why she never said anything and she said that legally she couldn’t bring it up. She also said that she thought I knew. I was using a lot of the terminologies like quirky and lacking empathy, and she thought I was just holding back.
Sometimes you can’t see the forest for the trees.
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Post by Lurkingpea on Sept 27, 2023 9:54:01 GMT
You absolutely can not label it. You simply present your observations and concerns. You may choose to seek support from admin if you’re uncomfortable. You may suggest that you would like to reach out to the sp ed dept for suggestions on how to best support their child. Explain that may include a visit. You may also ask if they see similar behaviors at home. I know I cannot label it. That is the last thing I would ever do. I just feel my observations are too vague. Thank you for your suggestions.
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Post by Lurkingpea on Sept 27, 2023 9:57:43 GMT
I don’t have any real advice in the situation, but our son was diagnosed with Asperger‘s when he was 12. (His preferred label.) We had moved so much when he was younger that I thought his social issues were due to the moves. We were also pretty involved parents and reached out to other kids for play dates and such to try and help him make friends because we moved so often and he was always the new kid. He is incredibly smart, and we Blamed his lack of social skills on that. He had a lot of trouble relating to other kids, and was not empathetic, and we just blamed it on him being ahead of the curve and more mature. But he was also immature in other ways and didn’t deal well with rejection or failure. It took another parent, asking me how long he had been diagnosed for that caused us to seek a diagnosis. I went back and asked his fifth grade teacher (Who was a former sped teacher) why she never said anything and she said that legally she couldn’t bring it up. She also said that she thought I knew. I was using a lot of the terminologies like quirky and lacking empathy, and she thought I was just holding back. Sometimes you can’t see the forest for the trees. Thank you for that. I know it must be hard as a parent to recognize and acknowledge your child's behaviors objectively.
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Post by monklady123 on Sept 27, 2023 10:05:21 GMT
I don’t have any real advice in the situation, but our son was diagnosed with Asperger‘s when he was 12. (His preferred label.) We had moved so much when he was younger that I thought his social issues were due to the moves. We were also pretty involved parents and reached out to other kids for play dates and such to try and help him make friends because we moved so often and he was always the new kid. He is incredibly smart, and we Blamed his lack of social skills on that. He had a lot of trouble relating to other kids, and was not empathetic, and we just blamed it on him being ahead of the curve and more mature. But he was also immature in other ways and didn’t deal well with rejection or failure. It took another parent, asking me how long he had been diagnosed for that caused us to seek a diagnosis. I went back and asked his fifth grade teacher (Who was a former sped teacher) why she never said anything and she said that legally she couldn’t bring it up. She also said that she thought I knew. I was using a lot of the terminologies like quirky and lacking empathy, and she thought I was just holding back. Sometimes you can’t see the forest for the trees. So true. I remember back when ds was in kindergarten I met another mom who had a toddler who was just learning to talk. Over the course of that kindergarten year I had a lot of chances to be around this toddler and it was clear to me that he had some sort of speech issue. Then one day the mom said that her mom and come to visit from out of state, and the first thing she said to this kid's mom was "you need to get his speech evaluated". The mom asked me what I thought because she said "we understand him perfectly". Yeah, his family did because they were around him all the time. Well they had him evaluated by Child Find and yep, speech issues. Anyway, OP -- It is a fine line for classroom teachers about identifying kids. In my district the school will get involved somehow in approaching the parents, so maybe talk to your admin...? I know I've had our principal in classes where I was subbing, and she's told me she's in there to observe a particular kid. So I'm not sure if each district is different? or each state? Hopefully you can figure out a good plan for this kid.
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Post by elaine on Sept 27, 2023 10:52:41 GMT
I have been teaching elementary for over 15 years. I have had my fair share of children with IEPs. All of the children I have had with IEPs came to my classroom with them. I have a student now I think needs an IEP. I am surprised he didn't come with one. I know I am not qualified to make a diagnosis. But I believe this child has autism. The problem is that his parents are both teachers and I am kind of in disbelief they don't see it. The child has a very flat affect. Does not engage with other children. Ever. Fixates on certain things. Does not respond to their name. Has no ability to focus on work longer than 30 seconds. Cannot participate in group time. Always removes themselves to book area. There is just a general similarity to other children with autism I have had. A lot of things I just can't put my finger on. Obviously they would be considered high functioning if they do have autism. The problem I have is I want to approach parents about having the child evaluated. I have never had to do this before. I can handle behavioral conversations. This is different. I can't even have someone from our SPED team come in to observe without talking to parents first so I am not sure how to approach them. The child's former teacher is no longer at the school so I can't speak to them to see if they approached parents or not. Parents have older child I also had. That child is reserved and quiet. It is different with the one I have in class now though. I think if any teacher peas could be in my class for a short time you would have the same gut feeling I do.i just don't know what to do. Wow! What a difficult position. In our school, any teacher can come in any classroom to work without parental permission. There would be absolutely no impediment to having a SPED teacher and/or school counselor and/or school psychologist come into my classroom and observe the whole class, while paying specific attention to one or more children. I had this happen a few times last year when I had challenging students that I brought to our Local Screening Committee (and one was the child of a teacher). I have a SPED teacher that pushes into my math class, she helps ANY child who needs it, while paying closest attention to the kids with IEPs, but she works with all my students - again, no parental permission needed. If I were to refer a child to our LSC, her observations of that child will also be used - I say this because I will be referring one who currently does not have an IEP. Teachers also can refer the child to Local Screening without parental permission. The meeting will take place - parents invited, of course - and formal assessment cannot happen without parental permission - and the committee decides whether to further evaluate only with parental permission. The observational data gathered by other staff (SPED teacher/counselor/paychologist) is often very important in this process. But, it is awful that you need parental permission to get another set of eyes on the child before talking to the parents about your concerns and referring the child for discussion and/or assessment. If I were you, I would start with discussing with the parents that you have concerns about there child - share your concerns - and ask permission for someone else to simply observe your class. Once you have observational data, if the specialist has the same concerns, have a small group discussion. Hopefully, when it is more than just you with concerns, the parents will be open to local screening and assessment (if your staff determine that assessment is necessary). I guess my other question would be how are the child’s grades? If the child has a C or better average across subjects, my school would not recommend school conducted assessment - it is costly, and only happens for children whose issues are preventing them from accessing the curriculum.
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artbabe
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,034
Jun 26, 2014 1:59:10 GMT
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Post by artbabe on Sept 27, 2023 11:07:46 GMT
Wow! What a difficult position. In our school, any teacher can come in any classroom to work without parental permission. There would be absolutely no impediment to having a SPED teacher and/or school counselor and/or school psychologist come into my classroom and observe the whole class, while paying specific attention to one or more children. I had this happen a few times last year when I had challenging students that I brought to our Local Screening Committee (and one was the child of a teacher). I have a SPED teacher that pushes into my math class, she helps ANY child who needs it, while paying closest attention to the kids with IEPs, but she works with all my students - again, no parental permission needed. If I were to refer a child to our LSC, her observations of that child will also be used - I say this because I will be referring one who currently does not have an IEP. Teachers also can refer the child to Local Screening without parental permission. The meeting will take place - parents invited, of course - and formal assessment cannot happen without parental permission - and the committee decides whether to further evaluate only with parental permission. The observational data gathered by other staff (SPED teacher/counselor/psychologist) is often very important in this process. But, it is awful that you need parental permission to get another set of eyes on the child before talking to the parents about your concerns and referring the child for discussion and/or assessment. I thought the same thing! It is bizarre to me that a teacher can't get someone to observe the class without parent permission. How does anything get done if another adult can't be in the room? I teach art and I have absolutely no problem getting another teacher, our counselor, our student liaison, or our school psychologist to observe the room. I often refer students to them if I think they have some kind of special need the school is not addressing.
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Dani-Mani
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Posts: 3,706
Jun 28, 2014 17:36:35 GMT
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Post by Dani-Mani on Sept 27, 2023 11:07:58 GMT
How old is the child?
Does your school not have a team that allows you to discuss concerns for kids, interventions, and next steps?
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SweetieBsMom
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Jun 25, 2014 19:55:12 GMT
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Post by SweetieBsMom on Sept 27, 2023 13:06:11 GMT
I have a parent perspective. DS was in pre-school when both his teachers asked to see me. They laid out what they were seeing, no labels, and gently suggested I talk to his pediatrician. I was super upset but I will be FOREVER grateful that they brought this to me. I had to fight his pediatrician, and I mean FIGHT, to get him to recommend the necessary evaluations (he resigned from the practice not to long after). DS wasn't diagnosed with Autism at 4 years old, which is considered late. I didn't want to hear what they were telling me, I didn't want to believe it, but I'm also a realist and I felt like there was something off (first kid, doctor telling me the missed milestones were nothing to worry about, etc). If you think this kid needs an IEP all you can do is bring it to the parents. They'll either listen or stick their heads in the sand (I find that's typically the 2 options). Good luck!
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CeeScraps
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~~occupied entertaining my brain~~
Posts: 3,826
Jun 26, 2014 12:56:40 GMT
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Post by CeeScraps on Sept 27, 2023 14:18:37 GMT
Here's what I did no matter how or what the parent reacts......
I will say to them that testing of any sort for anything will give everyone involved answers and education. It's what is done after the test results are shared where decisions are made. People want to be educated. Testing gives them an education. Each person does their own thing with their knowledge/education.
Leave it open......once professionals administer any evaluations/testing the parents may see what is going on.
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Post by Lurkingpea on Sept 27, 2023 14:27:16 GMT
How old is the child? Does your school not have a team that allows you to discuss concerns for kids, interventions, and next steps? First grade. We do have a team for behavioral problems. That would be easier. Unfortunately since he isn't disruptive to class we don't have that to use. Thank you all for your advice. I will be at school tomorrow (I am off yesterday and today for double ear infection and severe cold) so I will at least talk to my admin and see what we can do. I appreciate all your feedback and help.
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Post by Merge on Sept 27, 2023 14:35:58 GMT
Are his inability to focus and his self-removal to the book area affecting his academic progress? If so, I'd approach the parents from that standpoint. And as others have stated, simply share what you have observed without labels.
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Post by tripletmomplus2 on Sept 27, 2023 15:08:44 GMT
As the mother of 2 sons on the spectrum, one Asperger's (college grad) the other level 3 non verbal. The boys are now 25 and when they were little I was shocked at some parents who were in complete denial of their children's issues. Even my own sister who btw is a school teacher could not see it in my nephew who is 31 now till a coworker of hers pointed it out. Some parents just choose not to "go there" and it's sad because they could be getting services earlier. With a older sibling to compare this child to, you cannot tell me his parents aren't "aware" something is going on.
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Post by librarylady on Sept 27, 2023 17:03:49 GMT
I don't know if this applies to the situation ---FWIW: My sister (a kinder teacher) had a student that she felt needed an evaluation. Parents needed to sign a permission slip for any individual testing to be done. Parents refused. After some back/forth, my sister suggested that they come observe the way the child was interacting with other students and the teacher and also notice how/what other kinders were doing. (She had a screen of some sort in the room where parents could slip in back door of classroom (it had 2 doors), sit behind the screen and observe.) She invited the parents to come for a morning (8-12). Parents came and stayed about an hour. The next day the permission papers were returned and signed. My sister always thought it was because they saw what other kinders were doing and how their child was not in the same place. I can't remember if the child was SE or needed speech or just what was going on, but that observation brought the parents on board with getting the child an IEP.
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Country Ham
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Jun 25, 2014 19:32:08 GMT
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Post by Country Ham on Sept 27, 2023 19:23:41 GMT
our son was diagnosed with Asperger‘s when he was 12. (His preferred label.) I am not being snotty here just honestly curious. How does he get to pick his, well, label? Isn't a diagnosis your diagnosis whether you like it or not? Or do you mean he prefers to go by his official diagnosis rather then being described as "on the spectrum"?
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Post by Merge on Sept 27, 2023 20:04:40 GMT
I don't know if this applies to the situation ---FWIW: My sister (a kinder teacher) had a student that she felt needed an evaluation. Parents needed to sign a permission slip for any individual testing to be done. Parents refused. After some back/forth, my sister suggested that they come observe the way the child was interacting with other students and the teacher and also notice how/what other kinders were doing. (She had a screen of some sort in the room where parents could slip in back door of classroom (it had 2 doors), sit behind the screen and observe.) She invited the parents to come for a morning (8-12). Parents came and stayed about an hour. The next day the permission papers were returned and signed. My sister always thought it was because they saw what other kinders were doing and how their child was not in the same place. I can't remember if the child was SE or needed speech or just what was going on, but that observation brought the parents on board with getting the child an IEP. Lots of parents are in denial, unfortunately. Some will go so far as to switch school districts when one gets close to a diagnosis or label, forcing the new district to start the process over again. It’s said. I had an eight year old piano student who had severe issues of some kind. I couldn’t begin to say what. It manifested as toddler-style tantrums when she could not immediately play what she was working on. Hitting the piano, kicking, little screams, etc. I was very patient with her but mom and I together decided that piano lessons were not a good fit for her. I do hope they get that child some help.
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MerryMom
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Posts: 2,538
Jul 24, 2014 19:51:57 GMT
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Post by MerryMom on Sept 27, 2023 21:51:20 GMT
Are you feeling the angst because the parents are teachers? I would try to remove their profession from my mind and speak with them as you would any other parent. Describe the behaviors and how the student is performing.
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Post by Lurkingpea on Sept 27, 2023 22:06:34 GMT
Are you feeling the angst because the parents are teachers? I would try to remove their profession from my mind and speak with them as you would any other parent. Describe the behaviors and how the student is performing. I am just feeling angst because when I list out what I am observing it looks inadequate for an evaluation and I know the parents will see that. I am of course not positive the child has autism and would NEVER suggest or hint at that. But I bet if any of you who have experience with children with autism saw him you would be concerned as well. The parents are extremely kind. I am not worried about a lot of pushback. I am just more concerned if they press me for more details what I can say. I just have never had to have the evaluation conversation with parents. Normally by the time kids get to me they have an IEP or it is a behavior problem which is more concrete. I appreciate everyone’s input.
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Post by littlemama on Sept 28, 2023 0:47:01 GMT
our son was diagnosed with Asperger‘s when he was 12. (His preferred label.) I am not being snotty here just honestly curious. How does he get to pick his, well, label? Isn't a diagnosis your diagnosis whether you like it or not? Or do you mean he prefers to go by his official diagnosis rather then being described as "on the spectrum"? Asperger's is not used as a diagnosis anymore, if I recall correctly. Her son prefers to still be identified as having Asperger's rather than autism. I think that is fairly common for people who were diagnosed with Aspergers.
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Post by shutterspeedgirl on Sept 28, 2023 1:03:10 GMT
I am also a first grade teacher (27 -gasp-years). Whenever I visit with families, I ALWAYS start with questions. How is the year going so far? Any questions or concerns? What does your child tell them about school? Then I listen. Often parents will open the door before I have to and I can add my observations as well. If that doesn't happen, I might say that I have observed some behavior I wanted them to be aware of and then I go back to the questions...Do they notice it at home? During preferred activities or chores? How do they do independently with multi step directions (brush teeth, use potty, get a book).
I do share my observations, but only after asking and listening. You learn so much more and it can be so much less aggressive if you start with a listening ear versus hitting parents with these things right out of the gate. I also work hard to approach it from an educational standpoint and I point out how these observations could hinder academic advancement or social development. Short sentences, listening ear, kindness above all else. Any resistance and I back off asking them to keep an eye out and we can discuss it later. Sometimes folks just need think time and forcing them to solve all the issues in one short meeting isn't effective. But you know your families best. Some are ready to jump in ten minutes ago.
Depending on how the conversation goes, you could suggest that they talk to their doctor if they have concerns, or you could ask someone else to come in and observe (mention who and by name so they aren't shocked with a phone call). I always talk with parents about gathering information and sometimes that means crossing things OFF a list in order to figure out the right thing.
These are babies and you're talking about a families' most prized little human. It's so helpful that you already have a relationship with them. Makes it 100 times easier. Good luck.
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SabrinaP
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Busy Teacher Pea
Posts: 4,350
Location: Dallas Texas
Jun 26, 2014 12:16:22 GMT
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Post by SabrinaP on Sept 28, 2023 1:54:44 GMT
Here's what I did no matter how or what the parent reacts...... I will say to them that testing of any sort for anything will give everyone involved answers and education. It's what is done after the test results are shared where decisions are made. People want to be educated. Testing gives them an education. Each person does their own thing with their knowledge/education. Leave it open......once professionals administer any evaluations/testing the parents may see what is going on. This is also my advice. Another thing I would say is we can use testing to rule things out too and make sure we have the best plan of action for your child. It will give us the information we need.
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Post by peasapie on Sept 28, 2023 3:55:47 GMT
You absolutely can not label it. You simply present your observations and concerns. You may choose to seek support from admin if you’re uncomfortable. You may suggest that you would like to reach out to the sp ed dept for suggestions on how to best support their child. Explain that may include a visit. You may also ask if they see similar behaviors at home. I know I cannot label it. That is the last thing I would ever do. I just feel my observations are too vague. Thank you for your suggestions. I think your observations are quite specific, and several are directly academic related. I would describe them to the parents very much as you did above.
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Post by freecharlie on Sept 28, 2023 4:47:29 GMT
I'm high school, so a different level, but if teachers have concerns they do two things. 1) take the student to the mtss team 2) talk to the sped department and go from there
I've never needed permission from a parent to go into a room and observe and I do it whenever I want. Is this a district policy?
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artbabe
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Jun 26, 2014 1:59:10 GMT
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Post by artbabe on Sept 28, 2023 14:10:19 GMT
our son was diagnosed with Asperger‘s when he was 12. (His preferred label.) I am not being snotty here just honestly curious. How does he get to pick his, well, label? Isn't a diagnosis your diagnosis whether you like it or not? Or do you mean he prefers to go by his official diagnosis rather then being described as "on the spectrum"? It isn't used much anymore for two reasons: 1. Asperger's syndrome is level one autism. It is not a separate thing from autism- autism is a spectrum. 2. Hans Asperger was a Nazi that was responsible for killing children under the Third Reich. Yuck.
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MerryMom
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Jul 24, 2014 19:51:57 GMT
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Post by MerryMom on Sept 28, 2023 19:40:54 GMT
Are you feeling the angst because the parents are teachers? I would try to remove their profession from my mind and speak with them as you would any other parent. Describe the behaviors and how the student is performing. I am just feeling angst because when I list out what I am observing it looks inadequate for an evaluation and I know the parents will see that. I am of course not positive the child has autism and would NEVER suggest or hint at that. But I bet if any of you who have experience with children with autism saw him you would be concerned as well. The parents are extremely kind. I am not worried about a lot of pushback. I am just more concerned if they press me for more details what I can say. I just have never had to have the evaluation conversation with parents. Normally by the time kids get to me they have an IEP or it is a behavior problem which is more concrete. I appreciate everyone’s input. I thought what you had described in your OP was listing specific behaviors that had detail to it. Enough to describe it, say “I’m concerned”, and suggest more specific evaluations might be warranted.
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Post by Lurkingpea on Sept 28, 2023 22:19:46 GMT
Thanks everyone. I meant to just update my thread on top. I ended up erasing the whole thing. Thank you all for your help.
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