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Post by smalltowngirlie on Sept 14, 2015 1:26:54 GMT
OK, she is not a puppy, she is our 12 year old dog. We have noticed the last few months that it is getting harder for her to get up the 3 steps into our kitchen. She still does it, but it is slower and sometimes she does stumbles as she goes.
She used to hang out in the basement, but the flight of stairs was a lot and we did not want for her to not be able to get up them one morning. We put up gates for her to hang out in the kitchen at night and during the day when we were gone. We were much more aware of getting her outside more often, but knew there may be some accidents. We were prepared for that. No matter what we did we could never get her completely house trained and we tried many different methods.
Tonight when we got home she had made a mess. I called her over to the area and she ran from me, typical of her. When I reached for her collar she snapped at my hand twice. DH was behind her and got her collar and brought her to the area. He was saying no and swatted her bottom. He was not hitting her hard at all, I was watching. It was a "getting your attention" swat. He then put his finger up and said no to her face and she bit him and drew blood. He put his hand up again and she drew her lips back like a growl, but made no sound.
She has never reacted this was before. She knows when she does something wrong and will hide from us or slink away in shame. She has never tried to snap at us or even come close to biting us.
We have been talking the last year we have seen changes in her. She is slower, favors one leg sometimes and just generally showing her age. When we have tried to get her in a vehicle by lifting her up, she will now yelp like she is in pain from us lifting her.
We are really feeling we need to let her go. We always said we would not let her get so bad that she stopped enjoying life. DH neighbor did that with their dog, it could no longer walk, had accidents constantly and just never looked happy anymore.
Tonight when she snapped and bit, we now see her temperment is changing. We will not have any animal in our house we can not discipline for fear of getting bit. We also feel that this is just the start, we do not believe her behavior will improve it will only get worse as she ages.
This is not a decision we are making lightly. This is DS puppy we have had for 12 years, I mean we still call her puppy.
I know others may feel different than us, but please understand, we know our puppy and we know it is time. We can not risk her snapping at someone else or biting someone.
Not sure if I am looking for anything specific from you all, I think I just need to talk to others about what we need to do. I know some will understand, others may not and that is OK.
Thanks for reading.
ETA - I was not reaching for her collar to drag her across the floor. We use her collar to lead her. I reach for it all the time when we let her out or bring her to the area we want her. Yes, she knew she did something wrong. We knew it would take time for her to learn a new way and were willing to deal with it, but we also felt we could/should try to teach her. We praised her when she did good, we said no when she did wrong.
I would compare the swat to a spank on a child, some are ok with it others not. It was not done in a surge of uncontrolled anger. This is how we disciplined her in the past and it worked. Earlier this week I took her collar and said no to her and she never tried to snap or bite me. Tonight was just so different. Also, we have seen other changes in her, but she has never been an aggressive dog. That is the part that concerns me. She was let out 4 hours earlier, so it was not an etxreme amount of time.
We will have her looked at and make a decision, I just have a feeling we know what it will be. I know there are many animal lovers on her, and we do love her, but I grew up that dogs were pets. You care for them the best you can, but they are animals. Some may not believe it, but she is our spoiled puppy.
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Deleted
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May 21, 2024 3:24:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2015 1:32:00 GMT
I know how difficult it is to let a dog go when it's time. I've had to do it twice now. And it horrible. So I feel for you. At this point, I would not try to discipline her for any accidents she makes. Just love on her until it's time.
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trollie
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Post by trollie on Sept 14, 2015 1:32:31 GMT
Have you taken her to the vet? Sounds like she is in pain. Maybe she has something that is treatable.
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Post by magentapea on Sept 14, 2015 1:33:23 GMT
Before I made that decision, I would take her to the vet to see if something is wrong (besides the signs of slowing/old age). She could have a change in behavior because she is ill - and it could be something fixable. For instance, if she has an ear infection, she could be in a lot of pain and that can cause her behavioral change.
I, too, understand the risks of a dog snapping at someone and if the vet says that her behavior is because of her age and chronic condition, I would likely make the decision to put her down. Hugs to you. It is never an easy decision.
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back to *pea*ality
Pearl Clutcher
Not my circus, not my monkeys ~refugee pea #59
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Jun 25, 2014 19:51:11 GMT
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Post by back to *pea*ality on Sept 14, 2015 1:38:55 GMT
Unfortunately, incontinence is common in geriatric dogs. They are embarrassed when they make messes.she knew from your energy that you were annoyed and bringing her over to her mess was pointless. She can no longer hold her urine or bowels for long periods. Can you arrange for a dog walker? Use pee pads?
Her behavior was fear based aggression. She is old and afraid. She may be going blind, getting deaf, have anxiety. I would take her to the vet to be evaluated to see if she has anything medically going on beyond the aging. Please don't drag the dog by the collar to humiliate her.
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Post by Basket1lady on Sept 14, 2015 1:41:41 GMT
Have you taken her to the vet? Sounds like she is in pain. Maybe she has something that is treatable. I agree. She needs to be seen by a vet. There are good meds for arthritic dogs. Some are even reasonably priced. She may have dementia or something as simple as a UTI. It's not not an easy decision to make. In the interim, I would encourage you not to physically punish her for her incontinence. At this point, she's not going to suddenly become house trained. And if she has health issues, they could be making it worse. Show her the compassion you would show for an elderly relative. She can't help it now. |
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carhoch
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Post by carhoch on Sept 14, 2015 1:47:41 GMT
I cannot get over the fact that your husband hit her ... I'm sure she was a good dog and now that she's old and sick that's how you guys treat her .
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2015 1:53:36 GMT
You really shouldn't hit her - dogs have no idea what that's about when it happens minutes or hours after an incident. Dogs don't feel embarrassed or ashamed, that's something we imagine. They're just reacting to us - to our being angry or aggressive with them. I agree that the dog is older and likely feels more threatened than when she was younger and got a swat. She might also be in pain. Incontinence is a very common thing with old dogs. I say this gently: I think you handled it wrong, and the dog needs to see the vet. Meanwhile, please reconsider "disciplining" your dog. It's not doing what you think, and it's cruel. She's an old lady now. Why You Should Never Hit Your Dog, some science about dog behavior in case you're interested. "The most confrontational, and I would argue, aggressive, behaviors on the part of the owners resulted in the highest levels of aggressive responses from the dogs. 43% of dogs responded with aggression to being hit or kicked, 38% to having an owner grab their mouth and take out an object forcefully, 36% to having a muzzle put on (or attempted?), 29% to a "dominance down," 26% to a jowl or scruff shake." |
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Post by Zee on Sept 14, 2015 1:57:24 GMT
This is a very tough decision but I have to wonder why you feel the need to swat her at this point. It's not going to make a difference in the accidents...It's just scaring her and she's reacting with aggression because she's scared and maybe a bit senile. She knew you were displeased.
To me that's like swatting an 85 year old woman for wetting her pants.
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Post by yoursweetwhimsy on Sept 14, 2015 2:01:03 GMT
Has she ever been prescribed Rimadyl? Our older dogs took it for arthritic pain and it helped a lot. I agree about the incontinence. Once they walk away, they have no idea they went to the bathroom, she just knew you were upset. It's hard to watch our dogs age. I think she needs a trip to the vet as well to rule out a UTI and something for her pain.
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back to *pea*ality
Pearl Clutcher
Not my circus, not my monkeys ~refugee pea #59
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Jun 25, 2014 19:51:11 GMT
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Post by back to *pea*ality on Sept 14, 2015 2:01:33 GMT
I agree with everything you said except this. Some dogs are more intelligent than others and they know when they have done something wrong. My little stinker will bring me over to his "mistake" to show me. I clean it up. Don't make a fuss about it. I hope when the day comes when I am pissing and shitting myself someone will treat me with compassion and kindness. |
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gsquaredmom
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Post by gsquaredmom on Sept 14, 2015 2:02:30 GMT
Have her checked for arthritis in her hips. That can cause all the problems you are seeing. When your husband swatted her, it may have been intensely painful and she was afraid to be hit again. I would bare my teeth to warn him off too!!!
And punishing her for an accident is cruel. Especially when she may not remember doing it. Dogs are very in the moment. All she knows at that moment is you are hurting her.
Get her checked out. Steroids and pain meds may give you a different dog. and consider crating
Honestly, I think what you did was horrible and you are neglecting her medical needs if you don't get her checked out. If you put her down, please don't get another dog.
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Post by smokeynspike on Sept 14, 2015 2:05:31 GMT
I have an 18 year old cat, who acts like an old man at this point, and he is! He is having some peeing issues, but again, he is old and we are adjusting our lives to accommodate his old-age behaviors (like restricting access to our room where he has peed on our bed with a baby gate). This happens to old people too and we don't spank or "swat" them when they get old. I think my cat, and your dog, have earned the right to a few accidents after being a treasured part of the family for so long. Please don't hit your dog for old-age issues. I think she wouldn't have bit you if you had handled it appropriately.
Melissa
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Post by beebee on Sept 14, 2015 2:19:57 GMT
I can't imagine being that hard on an older dog. I think this is the time you should be more gentle and more caring. And definitely take her to the vet. It sounds like fear and pain to me. Maybe she is just getting arthritic and the yanking hurt her. Your actions sound very extreme to me.
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Post by Delta Dawn on Sept 14, 2015 2:22:56 GMT
I am sorry. I am there with you unfortunately. It sucks.
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Post by momof3pits on Sept 14, 2015 2:23:14 GMT
I can't imagine being that hard on an older dog. I think this is the time you should be more gentle and more caring. And definitely take her to the vet. It sounds like fear and pain to me. Maybe she is just getting arthritic and the yanking hurt her. Your actions sound very extreme to me. I totally agree with this. I'm sad for your "beloved puppy." |
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Post by christine58 on Sept 14, 2015 2:28:44 GMT
Unfortunately, incontinence is common in geriatric dogs. They are embarrassed when they make messes.she knew from your energy that you were annoyed and bringing her over to her mess was pointless. She can no longer hold her urine or bowels for long periods. Can you arrange for a dog walker? Use pee pads? Her behavior was fear based aggression. She is old and afraid. She may be going blind, getting deaf, have anxiety. I would take her to the vet to be evaluated to see if she has anything medically going on beyond the aging. Please don't drag the dog by the collar to humiliate her. You punished her for being incontinent? Of course she bit your husband. She's old and afraid and you scared her. Please take her to the vet. she could be in pain or sick. Shame on you and your husband for swatting her for something that she couldn't control. This entire post made me very sad. |
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Post by AussieMeg on Sept 14, 2015 2:31:05 GMT
Puppy training 101 - there is no point disciplining a dog for something they did hours beforehand, they have no idea what they are being disciplined for. You are supposed to discipline them immediately IF you catch them in the act. If you're not there to see the act then you shouldn't be disciplining her. Then there's the whole other argument about disciplining a dog for something that they most likely have no control over anyway. To me that's like swatting an 85 year old woman for wetting her pants. I agree with this. |
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Gravity
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 27, 2014 0:29:55 GMT
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Post by Gravity on Sept 14, 2015 2:36:05 GMT
Anyone who hits a dog for any reason deserves to get bit. Shame on you both for treating her so poorly. My heart hurts for your poor pup.
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Post by lancermom on Sept 14, 2015 2:50:22 GMT
When ours was 13 we made a well being appointment for the end of the day.(just in case). The vet said that out of 10 she was an eight for pain. We all felt horrible. The vet said dogs tend to hide pain because it shows weakness in the wild. We did not go home with her. It was one of the hardest decisions I have made in my adult life. But all kids were there, we held her as she passed. I cry now still and it has been two years, but I know she is no longer in pain. She had accidents too, we never called her attention to them, they were accidents.
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Post by Skellinton on Sept 14, 2015 2:59:37 GMT
My heart hurts for your dog. I want to hug her and love on her. She deserves better than the way she is being treated. I hope you and your husband evaluate whether you are really cut out to be pet parents.
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Post by farmdpea on Sept 14, 2015 3:12:34 GMT
Your ETA doesn't make it any better, OP. How do you expect to be treated in your golden years? That's how you treat LOVED, SPOILED pets.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2015 3:29:38 GMT
I don't want this to turn into a pile-on, but this quote from the OP smalltowngirlie : really stuck out to me. Disciplining after the fact never works, especially if you employ hitting (swatting). This type of training is most likely why you were never able to completely house train your dog. And now that she's older, in pain and scared, your 'method' is reaping an even more negative reaction.  Please take her to the vet, stop leading her by the collar and for the love of Pete, stop swatting her. That was a bad idea from the start and is now just flat-out cruel. L |
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Post by lisacharlotte on Sept 14, 2015 3:34:32 GMT
So she can't do stairs so you have decided to isolate her in the kitchen (which she would interpret as a negative) and she's incontinent and you hit her? You're doing it wrong. She needs a senior checkup and some accommodation for her age.
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Post by CarolT on Sept 14, 2015 3:46:41 GMT
Please be gentle with your old girl - what do you hope to accomplish by punishing an elderly dog for having an accident in the house? You said she has never been fully housebroken, so clearly the corporal punishment has not worked in the past - it's certainly not going to work now. Honestly, all hitting a dog does in create fear, and when you consider the fact that she is likely in pain and probably is losing some of her sight, it's not surprise that she nipped your husband - that's what dogs, even good dogs, do when they are afraid.
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Post by smalltowngirlie on Sept 14, 2015 4:07:50 GMT
So she can't do stairs so you have decided to isolate her in the kitchen (which she would interpret as a negative) and she's incontinent and you hit her? You're doing it wrong. She needs a senior checkup and some accommodation for her age. See we thought by not making her do the long flight of stairs, because we saw her struggling and working with training her, knowing there would be accidents, we were doing our best. We gave lots of praise when she went outside, we always have and just said no when she did it in the house. He kept her in the kitchen because it is the easiest to clean up. The rest of the main floor is carpet. Our thinking was that fewer steps were better for her. There were some mornings it took her a while to come upstairs. We figured as she was getting older it was getting harder for her to move in the morning. We figured she would never be fully trained, but with some training the accidents were be fewer and farther between. We were working on it. I was most shocked that when I reached for her collar she snapped at me. She has NEVER done this before. I did not and have not dragged her by her collar. I take it and she walks with me, slowly when she is is trouble, a little faster at other times, I adjust my speed to her. I was using my your in trouble voice, same voice I have always when she is in trouble. She also likes to dig in the garbage whenever she can. This time I reached and she snapped. I said her name again, reached and she snapped again. I feel like some are seeing this as an out of control moment and it really wasn't . My behavior was liked it has been for the last 12 years, like it was just 2 days ago. We are not sure why this time her reaction was so different. We are still discussing it and no decisions have been made, but we know no matter what that decision is not too far off in the future. |
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Post by freecharlie on Sept 14, 2015 4:12:52 GMT
When was the last time she was a a vet?
A dog snapping out of character typically means the dog is in pain. Take her to the vet and see what is up.
Can you add a ramp for the few stairs she has to take?
My dog is 13 and she is getting older. She doesn't hold is as well as before, but we don't hit her when she makes a mess. I know she knows she's in trouble because I bitch about it, but all we do is let her outside and someone cleans it up.
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Post by ro on Sept 14, 2015 4:15:55 GMT
smalltowngirlie, I'm not here to judge your actions, because I know you're in a tough place. All I want to say is that senior dogs can be a challenge -- just like senior humans -- think dementia, incontinence etc. They need some extra love and patience. But at the end of the day, only you know the right thing to do. Hugs.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2015 4:20:12 GMT
So she can't do stairs so you have decided to isolate her in the kitchen (which she would interpret as a negative) and she's incontinent and you hit her? You're doing it wrong. She needs a senior checkup and some accommodation for her age. See we thought by not making her do the long flight of stairs, because we saw her struggling and working with training her, knowing there would be accidents, we were doing our best. We gave lots of praise when she went outside, we always have and just said no when she did it in the house. He kept her in the kitchen because it is the easiest to clean up. The rest of the main floor is carpet. Our thinking was that fewer steps were better for her. There were some mornings it took her a while to come upstairs. We figured as she was getting older it was getting harder for her to move in the morning. We figured she would never be fully trained, but with some training the accidents were be fewer and farther between. We were working on it. I was most shocked that when I reached for her collar she snapped at me. She has NEVER done this before. I did not and have not dragged her by her collar. I take it and she walks with me, slowly when she is is trouble, a little faster at other times, I adjust my speed to her. I was using my your in trouble voice, same voice I have always when she is in trouble. She also likes to dig in the garbage whenever she can. This time I reached and she snapped. I said her name again, reached and she snapped again. I feel like some are seeing this as an out of control moment and it really wasn't . My behavior was liked it has been for the last 12 years, like it was just 2 days ago. We are not sure why this time her reaction was so different. We are still discussing it and no decisions have been made, but we know no matter what that decision is not too far off in the future. My guess is she is in a LOT of pain. She's trying to tell you the only way she knows how. Also, while collar grabbing was okay with her in the past, it isn't now. It hurts her. (And I don't understand having to take her collar when you need to lead her, anyway. Most dogs - by age 6 or 8 months, much less 12 years old - would have learned to go with their owner via voice command. No manhandling needed.) While your methods with her leave a lot to be desired, I do think you love your dog in your own way. Time to show it for the 'reals', get her to a vet and treat her more kindly from this point on. L |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2015 4:28:02 GMT
It is so sad to watch your pet decline. After her checkup you will know better on what to do.
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