pudgygroundhog
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Post by pudgygroundhog on May 17, 2016 14:39:34 GMT
Has anybody else read this? I just finished it last night and thought it was really good, although hard to read.
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Post by whopea on May 17, 2016 14:42:46 GMT
I have not read it, but might be interested in it only for the sake of trying to understand how those two kids could be making bombs and acquiring weapons under their noses and not know about it.
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Post by auntkelly on May 17, 2016 14:50:28 GMT
I haven't read the book, but I saw her interviewed on television and that was hard to watch.
I think it's hard to believe that a kid who committed such a horrific crime could come from such an ordinary home. I think every parent wants to believe that if you love your children and are a pretty good parent most of the time, your kids will turn out fine. It's frightening to think this isn't always the case.
I would like to read the book, but I've been putting it off because I feel it would just be so heavy and sad. My heart breaks for that woman. I can't imagine the guilt she carries around.
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tracylynn
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by tracylynn on May 17, 2016 15:07:08 GMT
I have not read it, but might be interested in it only for the sake of trying to understand how those two kids could be making bombs and acquiring weapons under their noses and not know about it. I don't think you'll find those answers. I watched her interview on TV a few months back and she simply didn't know. She knew he was a little different, but figured it was normal teenage stuff. I think sometimes we are way too hard on parents of these kids. I think we don't give kids enough credit for hiding who they really are/what they're doing. I'm not saying all parents are "innocent", but based on what I saw from her, I don't think she had her head in the sand per se. |
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pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by pudgygroundhog on May 17, 2016 15:07:22 GMT
I have not read it, but might be interested in it only for the sake of trying to understand how those two kids could be making bombs and acquiring weapons under their noses and not know about it. Sue Klebold herself says if the situation had been reversed and her son was a victim, she absolutely would've blamed the parents and not understood how it could have happened. But in the end they missed/misinterpreted signs that Dylan was depressed and suicidal and experts chimed in that kids can be masters at lying and convincing others things are okay. Even Dylan's friends had no idea (except for the girl who bought guns for them). |
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pudgygroundhog
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Post by pudgygroundhog on May 17, 2016 15:11:42 GMT
I haven't read the book, but I saw her interviewed on television and that was hard to watch. I think it's hard to believe that a kid who committed such a horrific crime could come from such an ordinary home. I think every parent wants to believe that if you love your children and are a pretty good parent most of the time, your kids will turn out fine. It's frightening to think this isn't always the case. I would like to read the book, but I've been putting it off because I feel it would just be so heavy and sad. My heart breaks for that woman. I can't imagine the guilt she carries around. It is hard to read because her grief and anguish (both for her son and for the victims) is so palpable, but she is eloquent and honest and it is worth reading. And you're right - it is frightening to think a kid from an ordinary home could do such a thing. It's easy to blame the parents because we can believe that such a thing would never happen to us and we like pat answers to why these things happen. Partly she wrote the book as a cautionary tale - Dylan was well loved and their home was an ordinary one. She said the mistakes they made were not recognizing signs of depression in Dylan and she talks a lot about teen depression and brain illness (the term she uses instead of mental illness). There were some things that made me raise an eyebrow, but in the end hindsight is 20/20 and I don't think she was any better or worse than most parents. |
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M in Carolina
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by M in Carolina on May 17, 2016 15:12:32 GMT
The 20/20 episode is on Hulu. I've not watched it because stuff like this takes a lot out of me, and I'm already depressed so my dh doesn't like me watching stuff like this.
I have seen families that were wonderful and still had dark secrets. I don't think that when something horrific happens in a family--like the dad is abusing kids or a family member murders someone or is a serial killer (like the BTK killer who was a boy scout leader and volunteered in his church) that the other family members knew or were in denial.
I can't imagine what this mother has dealt with since that day. She wouldn't have even had the support of many people after the death of her son. She suffered too, but most people would think that she was at least partly to blame for what happened. I understand why she'd want to explain and maybe help other families from going through the same thing. Hindsight is 20/20.
I would imagine many people would read it out of morbid curiosity. I minored in psychology, and I would be fascinated by what she had to say about how her son grew up.
I've known a lot of kids who were brutally bullied in school. My own dh was the victim of the most hateful bullying, and the staff did nothing about it. One of my teachers actually quit because of the blame the victim culture. I don't understand why someone would shoot other people, but I have seen how nasty kids can be to each other.
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pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by pudgygroundhog on May 17, 2016 15:14:49 GMT
I have not read it, but might be interested in it only for the sake of trying to understand how those two kids could be making bombs and acquiring weapons under their noses and not know about it. I don't think you'll find those answers. I watched her interview on TV a few months back and she simply didn't know. She knew he was a little different, but figured it was normal teenage stuff. I think sometimes we are way too hard on parents of these kids. I think we don't give kids enough credit for hiding who they really are/what they're doing. I'm not saying all parents are "innocent", but based on what I saw from her, I don't think she had her head in the sand per se. I agree. They were involved with Dylan and his life, but in the end they failed to recognize his depression (and often the symptoms can be typical teen behavior anyway). She acknowledges their mistakes and says she will forever question what they should have done that could have prevented Columbine. In the end I just felt empathy for her - I really can't imagine how she has endured. |
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pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by pudgygroundhog on May 17, 2016 15:17:51 GMT
The 20/20 episode is on Hulu. I've not watched it because stuff like this takes a lot out of me, and I'm already depressed so my dh doesn't like me watching stuff like this. I have seen families that were wonderful and still had dark secrets. I don't think that when something horrific happens in a family--like the dad is abusing kids or a family member murders someone or is a serial killer (like the BTK killer who was a boy scout leader and volunteered in his church) that the other family members knew or were in denial. I can't imagine what this mother has dealt with since that day. She wouldn't have even had the support of many people after the death of her son. She suffered too, but most people would think that she was at least partly to blame for what happened. I understand why she'd want to explain and maybe help other families from going through the same thing. Hindsight is 20/20. I would imagine many people would read it out of morbid curiosity. I minored in psychology, and I would be fascinated by what she had to say about how her son grew up. I've known a lot of kids who were brutally bullied in school. My own dh was the victim of the most hateful bullying, and the staff did nothing about it. One of my teachers actually quit because of the blame the victim culture. I don't understand why someone would shoot other people, but I have seen how nasty kids can be to each other. It is an interesting to read to learn about their family and the lead up to Columbine. She's been largely silent until recently, so it is another piece of the puzzle - and she said that is one reason for writing the book - so people can learn from it. You mention you are depressed and depression is talked about a lot in the book. She has done a lot for the advocacy of teen depression and suicide (all the author proceeds from the book go to charity). But yes, it is a sad read. |
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Post by Woobster on May 17, 2016 15:20:34 GMT
I have this on my Kindle to read... Thank you for the review.
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Post by epeanymous on May 17, 2016 15:25:55 GMT
I'm #84 in the hold line for it in our library system, so it is going to be a while. I am interested to read it. I often worry about how I would recognize the difference between normal teen moods and antics on the one hand and serious depression/destructive behavior on the other; I hope my relationship with my kids is such that I would know, but I had a good relationship with my mother as a teen and she didn't know half the things (nothing serious, but still) that I was up to.
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Post by whopea on May 17, 2016 15:31:39 GMT
I just went looking for a review and found this quote from an interview she did with the Guardian:
I'm not sure what she means by this. The other part of the interview that bothered me was that she differentiated between her son and Eric Harris because Dylan didn't kill as many and wasn't as sadistic. Ok then.
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pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
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Location: The Grand Canyon
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Post by pudgygroundhog on May 17, 2016 15:36:10 GMT
I'm #84 in the hold line for it in our library system, so it is going to be a while. I am interested to read it. I often worry about how I would recognize the difference between normal teen moods and antics on the one hand and serious depression/destructive behavior on the other; I hope my relationship with my kids is such that I would know, but I had a good relationship with my mother as a teen and she didn't know half the things (nothing serious, but still) that I was up to. If you haven't already read Columbine by Dave Cullen, you can read that while you wait - it's a really good read too. In the book she does talk about how many of the signs can easily be mistaken for normal teen moods and often a change in behavior can be a sign versus the behaviors themselves. Sue Klebold thought she had a good enough relationship with her son that she was sure she would've been able to know something was wrong - but he fooled pretty much everybody. His journals show that a full two years before Columbine he was suffering from depression and suicidal thoughts - it did go on for quite awhile. In hindsight she looks back at things he said or did and realized how well he deflected from himself and was able to make them think he was doing okay. The book said it's hard to know if a kid is really doing okay or just really good at convincing you they are doing okay. She says she wishes she would've pushed further at times, but if your kid has been mostly a good kid their whole life, it's hard to believe something is wrong with him. I think they made mistakes (really most evident in hindsight), but in the end it wasn't mistakes that any of us parents couldn't make ourselves. It is scary. |
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Deleted
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May 17, 2024 22:14:48 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 15:38:29 GMT
We've mentioned it before, the book Columbine by Dave Cullen is very good and illustrates the differences between Eric and Dylan. Annette |
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Post by boatymcboatface on May 17, 2016 15:38:40 GMT
I just went looking for a review and found this quote from an interview she did with the Guardian: I'm not sure what she means by this. The other part of the interview that bothered me was that she differentiated between her son and Eric Harris because Dylan didn't kill as many and wasn't as sadistic. Ok then. I read that quote to mean that his depression, mental illness, whatever was going on inside him and his friend that caused them to do this was also the thing that caused him to take his own life. People who are not mentally ill in some way don't do this is what I think she means, It was a monsterous thing but I think she means that as much as his school mates were victims of him, he was victim to something horribly wrong inside him. |
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Post by bc2ca on May 17, 2016 15:40:18 GMT
I haven't read the book, but I saw her interviewed on television and that was hard to watch. I think it's hard to believe that a kid who committed such a horrific crime could come from such an ordinary home. I think every parent wants to believe that if you love your children and are a pretty good parent most of the time, your kids will turn out fine. It's frightening to think this isn't always the case. I would like to read the book, but I've been putting it off because I feel it would just be so heavy and sad. My heart breaks for that woman. I can't imagine the guilt she carries around. It is hard to read because her grief and anguish (both for her son and for the victims) is so palpable, but she is eloquent and honest and it is worth reading. And you're right - it is frightening to think a kid from an ordinary home could do such a thing. It's easy to blame the parents because we can believe that such a thing would never happen to us and we like pat answers to why these things happen. Partly she wrote the book as a cautionary tale - Dylan was well loved and their home was an ordinary one. She said the mistakes they made were not recognizing signs of depression in Dylan and she talks a lot about teen depression and brain illness (the term she uses instead of mental illness). There were some things that made me raise an eyebrow, but in the end hindsight is 20/20 and I don't think she was any better or worse than most parents. I am on the hold list for this book and know it won't be an easy read. I did find her eloquent and honest in her interview and do admire her for sharing this part of the puzzle. |
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pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
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Location: The Grand Canyon
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Post by pudgygroundhog on May 17, 2016 15:42:05 GMT
I just went looking for a review and found this quote from an interview she did with the Guardian: I'm not sure what she means by this. The other part of the interview that bothered me was that she differentiated between her son and Eric Harris because Dylan didn't kill as many and wasn't as sadistic. Ok then. I haven't read that interview or know the context of that quote - it doesn't really make sense to me. Actually, experts who have researched school shootings and have studied Columbine (more can be read in the book by Dave Cullen) generally agree that the personalities and motivations of Eric and Dylan were different. Eric was a pyschopath and Dylan was depressed and suicidal. Sue Klebold talks about these differences and the dynamic of their relationship, but she doesn't absolve Dylan of wrongdoing and acknowledges that it doesn't matter in the end what drove him because innocent people died and were injured. |
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Post by epeanymous on May 17, 2016 15:42:24 GMT
I'm #84 in the hold line for it in our library system, so it is going to be a while. I am interested to read it. I often worry about how I would recognize the difference between normal teen moods and antics on the one hand and serious depression/destructive behavior on the other; I hope my relationship with my kids is such that I would know, but I had a good relationship with my mother as a teen and she didn't know half the things (nothing serious, but still) that I was up to. If you haven't already read Columbine by Dave Cullen, you can read that while you wait - it's a really good read too. In the book she does talk about how many of the signs can easily be mistaken for normal teen moods and often a change in behavior can be a sign versus the behaviors themselves. Sue Klebold thought she had a good enough relationship with her son that she was sure she would've been able to know something was wrong - but he fooled pretty much everybody. His journals show that a full two years before Columbine he was suffering from depression and suicidal thoughts - it did go on for quite awhile. In hindsight she looks back at things he said or did and realized how well he deflected from himself and was able to make them think he was doing okay. The book said it's hard to know if a kid is really doing okay or just really good at convincing you they are doing okay. She says she wishes she would've pushed further at times, but if your kid has been mostly a good kid their whole life, it's hard to believe something is wrong with him. I think they made mistakes (really most evident in hindsight), but in the end it wasn't mistakes that any of us parents couldn't make ourselves. It is scary. I did read that book. I was surprised at how much that I "knew" about Columbine was wrong. |
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pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,643
Location: The Grand Canyon
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Post by pudgygroundhog on May 17, 2016 15:44:19 GMT
I just went looking for a review and found this quote from an interview she did with the Guardian: I'm not sure what she means by this. The other part of the interview that bothered me was that she differentiated between her son and Eric Harris because Dylan didn't kill as many and wasn't as sadistic. Ok then. I read that quote to mean that his depression, mental illness, whatever was going on inside him and his friend that caused them to do this was also the thing that caused him to take his own life. People who are not mentally ill in some way don't do this is what I think she means, It was a monsterous thing but I think she means that as much as his school mates were victims of him, he was victim to something horribly wrong inside him. Definitely. She does not absolve him, but recognizes if he had the help he needed, the tragedy might have been prevented. She cites research and books by experts that talk about how the root of murder-suicides is often suicide. Working to help those that suffer from depression or other illnesses can help save lives all around. |
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pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by pudgygroundhog on May 17, 2016 15:45:43 GMT
If you haven't already read Columbine by Dave Cullen, you can read that while you wait - it's a really good read too. In the book she does talk about how many of the signs can easily be mistaken for normal teen moods and often a change in behavior can be a sign versus the behaviors themselves. Sue Klebold thought she had a good enough relationship with her son that she was sure she would've been able to know something was wrong - but he fooled pretty much everybody. His journals show that a full two years before Columbine he was suffering from depression and suicidal thoughts - it did go on for quite awhile. In hindsight she looks back at things he said or did and realized how well he deflected from himself and was able to make them think he was doing okay. The book said it's hard to know if a kid is really doing okay or just really good at convincing you they are doing okay. She says she wishes she would've pushed further at times, but if your kid has been mostly a good kid their whole life, it's hard to believe something is wrong with him. I think they made mistakes (really most evident in hindsight), but in the end it wasn't mistakes that any of us parents couldn't make ourselves. It is scary. I did read that book. I was surprised at how much that I "knew" about Columbine was wrong. Yes, it was very enlightening! I think it's a good book to read to provide a foundation for reading Sue Klebold's book. She actually consulted with Dave Cullen for her book. |
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Post by leannec on May 17, 2016 15:52:05 GMT
I did read this book ... while I felt for her and understood her position I did find a lot of the story to be repetitive ... Dylan was definitely depressed and easily influenced ... I can't imagine being in her shoes  I would still recommend it if you are interested in things related to Columbine ... Another great book is "Columbine" by Dave Cullen ... ETA: I was posting as you were all talking about the Cullen book  |
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Post by whopea on May 17, 2016 15:55:43 GMT
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quiltz
Drama Llama
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Jun 29, 2014 16:13:28 GMT
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Post by quiltz on May 17, 2016 16:04:00 GMT
I just went looking for a review and found this quote from an interview she did with the Guardian: I'm not sure what she means by this. The other part of the interview that bothered me was that she differentiated between her son and Eric Harris because Dylan didn't kill as many and wasn't as sadistic. Ok then. Please do not be harsh on the mother. She is still (yes even after many years) of what her son did and everything that happened. How would YOU feel, act, react if this was your child. There comes a point in adolescence where the child tries to be their own independent person and does their own thing. As has been mentioned in many other posts, the brain is not fully developed until approx 25 years old. Perhaps the mother didn't realise that there may have been an underlining mental illness. How well, truly how well do you know everything about your adolescent thoughts, their friends & what they may talk about and do you have a full & complete understanding of your child's friends mental health? Don't you, as an adult have some very personal thoughts, feeling or wishes that you don't share with anyone? In this time of proliferance of social media, many people make comments 'on the fly', simply because they can without any cause or concern as to what these comments may tear & rip apart and/or cause more emotional, mental even physical pain & anguish to the parents. You never know what tomorrow may bring and what might happen & shake/destroy the life that you have always known. |
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Post by whopea on May 17, 2016 16:12:49 GMT
I just went looking for a review and found this quote from an interview she did with the Guardian: I'm not sure what she means by this. The other part of the interview that bothered me was that she differentiated between her son and Eric Harris because Dylan didn't kill as many and wasn't as sadistic. Ok then. Please do not be harsh on the mother. She is still (yes even after many years) of what her son did and everything that happened. How would YOU feel, act, react if this was your child. There comes a point in adolescence where the child tries to be their own independent person and does their own thing. As has been mentioned in many other posts, the brain is not fully developed until approx 25 years old. Perhaps the mother didn't realise that there may have been an underlining mental illness. How well, truly how well do you know everything about your adolescent thoughts, their friends & what they may talk about and do you have a full & complete understanding of your child's friends mental health? Don't you, as an adult have some very personal thoughts, feeling or wishes that you don't share with anyone? In this time of proliferance of social media, many people make comments 'on the fly', simply because they can without any cause or concern as to what these comments may tear & rip apart and/or cause more emotional, mental even physical pain & anguish to the parents. You never know what tomorrow may bring and what might happen & shake/destroy the life that you have always known. I've asked myself that question many times as I've read about these situations. I would be devastated for the loss that it caused another family and the loss of what I thought we had, but I'm not sure I could defend my child if they committed violence such as this. I would love the memory of my child. I don't think I could make favorable comparisons that my kid only killed 3 or 4 while the other kid killed 9 or 10. Isn't she doing the same thing - my kid is not as bad as yours? The adolescent brain is hard to understand and I'm grateful that she's been a teen mental health advocate since the shooting. If we can identify one young teen and get them help before, that would be good. |
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Post by lisacharlotte on May 17, 2016 16:16:52 GMT
I cannot blame the parents. Since finding the Peas, I've read plenty of posts about children running off the rails dispute having average , ordinary home lives and parents. Hindsight is always 20/20.
I don't blame her for loving her child despite the horrible acts he committed. I can only imagine the guilt and grief she lives with daily. I'm not sure I could do it.
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Post by auntkelly on May 17, 2016 16:22:44 GMT
It's not always a matter of just recognizing that your child is suffering from depression. It can be really difficult to find a good therapist and to get the depressed teen to admit that he or she needs help. I have several friends whose kids suffer from depression. It seems like it is a constant struggle to make sure that their teen or young adult is going to their medical appointments and taking the medications which are prescribed.
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Post by debmast on May 17, 2016 16:28:55 GMT
Will be looking for this. My college aged DD and I have both read many books on this subject.
Was Dylan the "mastermind" or the "follower" (it has been a while since I've read anything and I can't remember which boy was which)
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Post by Darcy Collins on May 17, 2016 17:33:20 GMT
Rarely do people analyze the whys of black city kids who join gangs, stockpile guns, and kill indiscriminately. I wish someone would. Can you imagine a book for every single black or Hispanic kid who goes on a shooting rampage? The social problems we allow in this country would become impossible to ignore. Sure they do - you can easily find 100s of books on urban gang violence. And the driving forces aren't unknown - it's that the problems aren't easily solvable. |
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pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by pudgygroundhog on May 17, 2016 18:10:07 GMT
Will be looking for this. My college aged DD and I have both read many books on this subject. Was Dylan the "mastermind" or the "follower" (it has been a while since I've read anything and I can't remember which boy was which) Eric Harris was a psychopath who was bent on death and destruction. Dylan Klebold was a suicidal depressive who fell in with Eric and was susceptible to his plans (although in the end he still did it, so it's not an excuse). |
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pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
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Location: The Grand Canyon
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Post by pudgygroundhog on May 17, 2016 18:13:44 GMT
Rarely do people analyze the whys of black city kids who join gangs, stockpile guns, and kill indiscriminately. I wish someone would. Can you imagine a book for every single black or Hispanic kid who goes on a shooting rampage? The social problems we allow in this country would become impossible to ignore. There is literature on those topics too, but I do think there is a disparity in how these topics are approached and analyzed. And I think gang violence is different from a school shooting like Columbine. |
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Southern Side eyed Pea 
