pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,643
Location: The Grand Canyon
Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
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Post by pudgygroundhog on May 17, 2016 18:33:14 GMT
Sure they do - you can easily find 100s of books on urban gang violence. And the driving forces aren't unknown - it's that the problems aren't easily solvable. I do realize that. I just mean, I suppose, that it's a bit ethnocentric the way publishers hype up and promote books on single white killers as though the idea is so odd and so fascinatingly rare that it needs one book per killer. Yet minorty violence is lumped into a behavioral pattern of "street kids" or "gang violence". Really, I believe the mental tragedies that occur with these white families are only rare because in general, white families have more money and resources for early intervention, but also they live in communities that care about them as individuals. The moms who raise black street kids are, in their small world, just as stricken and dumbfounded after trying for years to keep their boys from falling into a gang. But their kids live in a world that literally does not care. The sheer number of indiscriminate killing boys in inner cities makes the problem less personal and more nebulous for bookstore shoppers, who just wouldn't likely read a book about one particular unknown kid in Chicago who shot up a convenience store one night. The search for reasoning of why the Columbine kids did it usually falls to, "but they had nice families and money"-- As soon as we get away from the misconception that money and nice neighborhoods are solutions to kids feeling isolated and meaningless, the better. I'm having a tough time articulating what I mean. I get what you mean. I just read the book Dreamland about the opiate addiction epidemic and the author mentioned a similar idea - people didn't really care about the crack epidemic or when they thought drugs were isolated to poor, ethnic neighborhoods, but now that opiates have infiltrated everywhere, it's become a bigger issue. It's often the same in what becomes big news - particularly with missing or murdered women. I think partly it's because we almost expect violence or bad things to happen in bad neighborhoods, so when it happens to somebody it "shouldn't" - mainly, white, middle class people, it feels more shocking. (and I think for the news, the people who run the news are largely white, middle class and they likely have a bias (probably unintentional) towards news/people who they identify with).
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Post by debmast on May 17, 2016 18:41:52 GMT
Will be looking for this. My college aged DD and I have both read many books on this subject. Was Dylan the "mastermind" or the "follower" (it has been a while since I've read anything and I can't remember which boy was which) Eric Harris was a psychopath who was bent on death and destruction. Dylan Klebold was a suicidal depressive who fell in with Eric and was susceptible to his plans (although in the end he still did it, so it's not an excuse). Thank you! I knew one was the "leader" and the other more of a "follower" who I think ultimately wanted to kill himself. I just couldn't remember which was which. I blame state testing for my brain being mush! Just ordered the book.
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MerryMom
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,539
Jul 24, 2014 19:51:57 GMT
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Post by MerryMom on May 17, 2016 19:18:18 GMT
I just went looking for a review and found this quote from an interview she did with the Guardian: I'm not sure what she means by this. The other part of the interview that bothered me was that she differentiated between her son and Eric Harris because Dylan didn't kill as many and wasn't as sadistic. Ok then. I read that quote to mean that his depression, mental illness, whatever was going on inside him and his friend that caused them to do this was also the thing that caused him to take his own life. People who are not mentally ill in some way don't do this is what I think she means, It was a monsterous thing but I think she means that as much as his school mates were victims of him, he was victim to something horribly wrong inside him. But that still doesn't explain that while his depression explains his suicide, it does not explain his shooting and killing others. That's the difference, no matter how much his mother tries to split whatever hairs she thinks she needs to split. Whatever allows her to sleep at night. Her "reckoning" is unclear.
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Post by boatymcboatface on May 17, 2016 19:56:48 GMT
I read that quote to mean that his depression, mental illness, whatever was going on inside him and his friend that caused them to do this was also the thing that caused him to take his own life. People who are not mentally ill in some way don't do this is what I think she means, It was a monsterous thing but I think she means that as much as his school mates were victims of him, he was victim to something horribly wrong inside him. But that still doesn't explain that while his depression explains his suicide, it does not explain his shooting and killing others. That's the difference, no matter how much his mother tries to split whatever hairs she thinks she needs to split. Whatever allows her to sleep at night. Her "reckoning" is unclear. but it may explain why he was susceptible to suggestion, why he went along with such a monsterous idea. He may have had no feeling that his life or anyone else's had any value, he may have felt the only person who understood him was his friend, we don't know. of course her reckoning is unclear because her son is also dead and cannot tell anyone why or what he was thinking. to me what comes across as splitting hairs to some seems like the honest and painful questioning of a parent who like the victims parents wants to know why but doesn't find mich clarity in the answers. Reckoning isn't always clear, it doesn't work that way with the big question like this.
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inkedup
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,837
Jun 26, 2014 5:00:26 GMT
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Post by inkedup on May 17, 2016 21:24:02 GMT
The 20/20 episode is on Hulu. I've not watched it because stuff like this takes a lot out of me, and I'm already depressed so my dh doesn't like me watching stuff like this. I have seen families that were wonderful and still had dark secrets. I don't think that when something horrific happens in a family--like the dad is abusing kids or a family member murders someone or is a serial killer (like the BTK killer who was a boy scout leader and volunteered in his church) that the other family members knew or were in denial. I can't imagine what this mother has dealt with since that day. She wouldn't have even had the support of many people after the death of her son. She suffered too, but most people would think that she was at least partly to blame for what happened. I understand why she'd want to explain and maybe help other families from going through the same thing. Hindsight is 20/20. I would imagine many people would read it out of morbid curiosity. I minored in psychology, and I would be fascinated by what she had to say about how her son grew up. I've known a lot of kids who were brutally bullied in school. My own dh was the victim of the most hateful bullying, and the staff did nothing about it. One of my teachers actually quit because of the blame the victim culture. I don't understand why someone would shoot other people, but I have seen how nasty kids can be to each other. The Columbine massacre was not about bullying; that theory has been discounted by the FBI for decades. Most experts agree that Eric Harris was a psychopath in the clinical sense. He exploited Dylan Klebold's depression and low-self esteem. It is believed that Klebold would have done nothing if not for Harris' manipulation.
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inkedup
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,837
Jun 26, 2014 5:00:26 GMT
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Post by inkedup on May 17, 2016 21:28:00 GMT
I read that quote to mean that his depression, mental illness, whatever was going on inside him and his friend that caused them to do this was also the thing that caused him to take his own life. People who are not mentally ill in some way don't do this is what I think she means, It was a monsterous thing but I think she means that as much as his school mates were victims of him, he was victim to something horribly wrong inside him. But that still doesn't explain that while his depression explains his suicide, it does not explain his shooting and killing others. That's the difference, no matter how much his mother tries to split whatever hairs she thinks she needs to split. Whatever allows her to sleep at night. Her "reckoning" is unclear. I guess the FBI should have consulted you. Seems like you have everything figured out, and it's all Dylan Klebold's mother's fault
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pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,643
Location: The Grand Canyon
Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
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Post by pudgygroundhog on May 18, 2016 1:18:26 GMT
The 20/20 episode is on Hulu. I've not watched it because stuff like this takes a lot out of me, and I'm already depressed so my dh doesn't like me watching stuff like this. I have seen families that were wonderful and still had dark secrets. I don't think that when something horrific happens in a family--like the dad is abusing kids or a family member murders someone or is a serial killer (like the BTK killer who was a boy scout leader and volunteered in his church) that the other family members knew or were in denial. I can't imagine what this mother has dealt with since that day. She wouldn't have even had the support of many people after the death of her son. She suffered too, but most people would think that she was at least partly to blame for what happened. I understand why she'd want to explain and maybe help other families from going through the same thing. Hindsight is 20/20. I would imagine many people would read it out of morbid curiosity. I minored in psychology, and I would be fascinated by what she had to say about how her son grew up. I've known a lot of kids who were brutally bullied in school. My own dh was the victim of the most hateful bullying, and the staff did nothing about it. One of my teachers actually quit because of the blame the victim culture. I don't understand why someone would shoot other people, but I have seen how nasty kids can be to each other. The Columbine massacre was not about bullying; that theory has been discounted by the FBI for decades. Most experts agree that Eric Harris was a psychopath in the clinical sense. He exploited Dylan Klebold's depression and low-self esteem. It is believed that Klebold would have done nothing if not for Harris' manipulation. That was an interesting discrepancy between Dave Cullen's "Columbine" and Sue Klebold's book. Cullen downplayed the bullying, but Sue Klebold does talk about it. She mentions specific conversations she and her husband had had with Dylan regarding incidents at school. It wasn't the cause of Columbine, but given some of the things Sue Klebold talks about her son, any incidents at school could have further increased Dylan's sense of isolation. She talks about how he was painfully shy and felt nervous in social situations, really taking to heart any perceived slights.
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Post by Really Red on May 18, 2016 2:21:35 GMT
I really would like to hear from people who knew these boys at 5, 6, 7 and 8 years old. Were the parents involved with them? Were they troublemakers and everything was sort of swept under the carpet? This behavior didn't magically appear did it? I know that is possible (I had two 13 yo girls!), but the severity of what was wrong seems to me that something should have been noticed very young.
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MerryMom
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,539
Jul 24, 2014 19:51:57 GMT
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Post by MerryMom on May 18, 2016 2:51:25 GMT
But that still doesn't explain that while his depression explains his suicide, it does not explain his shooting and killing others. That's the difference, no matter how much his mother tries to split whatever hairs she thinks she needs to split. Whatever allows her to sleep at night. Her "reckoning" is unclear. I guess the FBI should have consulted you. Seems like you have everything figured out, and it's all Dylan Klebold's mother's fault The difference is that her son made a choice: over and over again. I don't need to be an "FBI consultant" to determine that. She minimizes and makes excuses for her son's choices. As a mother, I get it. In the end, it helps her sleep at night, go for it.
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pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,643
Location: The Grand Canyon
Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
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Post by pudgygroundhog on May 18, 2016 3:24:12 GMT
I really would like to hear from people who knew these boys at 5, 6, 7 and 8 years old. Were the parents involved with them? Were they troublemakers and everything was sort of swept under the carpet? This behavior didn't magically appear did it? I know that is possible (I had two 13 yo girls!), but the severity of what was wrong seems to me that something should have been noticed very young. At least for Dylan Klebold, his parents were very involved. The first time he got in trouble was his junior year - arrested for breaking into a van with Eric Harris and stealing equipment and some other problems at school. I don't think his parents necessarily swept it under the rug, but in retrospect Sue Klebold says there are things they should've done differently. Dylan's journals reveal that several years before Columbine he was very depressed and suicidal, but he hid it very well.
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pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,643
Location: The Grand Canyon
Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
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Post by pudgygroundhog on May 18, 2016 3:25:25 GMT
I guess the FBI should have consulted you. Seems like you have everything figured out, and it's all Dylan Klebold's mother's fault The difference is that her son made a choice: over and over again. I don't need to be an "FBI consultant" to determine that. She minimizes and makes excuses for her son's choices. As a mother, I get it. In the end, it helps her sleep at night, go for it. Have you read either Columbine by Cullen or Sue Klebold's book? People will interpret the book differently, but I never felt she was making excuses for his choices. She searches for explanations of what she missed and did wrong, but she never absolves him of what he did.
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