Deleted
Posts: 0
May 18, 2024 10:41:47 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2016 0:31:31 GMT
link
Daily Kos published a list of why he/she thinks Sanders has already lost the nominee and he/she is pissed with Sanders. The reasons: 1. If you plan for a coup, you've already lost. 2. He may wand to disenfranchise them, but communities of color voted against him. 3. No. Sanders won't do better than Clinton against Trump. 4. No, the system wasn't rigged against him. 5. But what about the media blackout? 6. All that money. 7. The system was rigged by closed primaries. 8. The system wasn't rigged because red states voted. 9. If the system was rigged was does Sanders have more delegates than his vote share? 10. The system is rigged because more voters are voting for my opponent. 11. The system is rigged because if we could start now, more people would vote for Sanders and he would be winning. For each of the reasons listed Kos makes the case to go along with the reason. I think Kos made some good points about the media, about the money, about the number of voters who have voted for Hillary over Sanders. At this point 2.9M more voters have voted for Hillary than Sanders and while Bernie is winning he is not making up any ground when it comes to the number of voters. In fact he is losing ground. In the comments for reason number 11 there is a link that shows different recent polls that shows the support for Sanders with Democrats may be declining. There was actually a bigger difference in % than I thought. The outspoken writer Ayelet Waldman I follow on Twitter included the link for this article in a tweet that said. "Amen. I started out a Sanders supporter. I'm not a Clinton fan. But you know what? F*ck You!" Kind of goes with what the polls linked in this article are showing. It is looking more and more like Hillary will be the Democratic nominee. It's now up to Bernie to decide how and what he wants to do within the Democratic Party. He can lay the ground work for change or he can just become a footnote in history. And go back and remain , as someone put it, a bit player in the Senate.
|
|
ellen
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,508 
|
Post by ellen on May 24, 2016 2:09:15 GMT
This has a deja vu feeling to me. In 2008 Hillary Clinton was planning to take it to the convention. It wasn't until a couple days after Obama secured the delegate number needed in June that she finally conceded. I remember being really pissed at her because he had the number and she still hadn't conceded. People kept asking, "What does Hillary want?" A lot of her people said there was no way they would vote for Obama in the general election - and then they voted for him in November. Elections are long. What seems huge in May often isn't all that big in August. I was listening to I believe Chuck Todd over the weekend and one thing he said was that it is important that Bernie supporters feel like he was beaten fairly by her if they are going to get on board with her. He's not quitting, so they're going to have to keep going until she secures the number of delegates needed. It can't be that much longer. I don't really feel too bad for her because she did the exact same thing 8 years ago.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 18, 2024 10:41:47 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2016 15:06:35 GMT
I don't think anyone, including Hillary, is saying Sanders should drop out of the race. Because as pointed out above and as Hillary has said herself she stayed in the race until the final primary.
Its his attitude that the DNC is out to get him that is the problem. He joined the party so he could use the party in his run for president. Then as he started the process he felt some of the rules weren't fair to him like closed primaries so he is demanding they change NOW with his "let the people vote" chant.
Nobody is stopping anyone from voting. As its becoming clear there was no voter suppression at the Nevada caucus. It was simply the Sanders supporters not doing their homework. So because they messed up they, with Sanders help, are blaming everyone but who they should be blaming and that is themselves.
In CA a Sanders supporter filed suit to extend the voter registration period which closed yesterday. He claims the rules on what one needs to do to vote for a Democratic presidential candidate are confusing. Maybe so but again it's called doing your homework. It's not like Sanders decided the day before yesterday to run for president. There was plenty of time for potential Sander voters to visit the voter registration website to see what needed to be done and then do it online. Easy peasy.
Its this attitude of Sanders that the DNC is not being fair to him The Daily Kos felt the need to list 11 reasons why Bernie is losing fair and square. And I agree with many of the reasons and felt the need to share.
|
|
MizIndependent
Drama Llama
Quit your bullpoop.
Posts: 5,836
Jun 25, 2014 19:43:16 GMT
|
Post by MizIndependent on May 24, 2016 16:49:56 GMT
I don't think anyone, including Hillary, is saying Sanders should drop out of the race. Because as pointed out above and as Hillary has said herself she stayed in the race until the final primary. Maybe, but stating flat out that she will be the nominee sure sounds like the same thing to me. |
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 18, 2024 10:41:47 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2016 17:04:04 GMT
link
Overkill I'm sure some will think but here is yet another article I want to share. Ed Kilgore wrote this op ed "Sanders Need to Talk Down His supporters and Explain Nothing is Being "Stolen". The reason I decided to share this article are these quotes from a Sanders supporter. " The Sanders people should know better than to conclude what has been a brilliant and important campaign by turning it into an extended temper tantrum." and "I voted for Bernie Sanders.....But if anybody thinks that, somehow, he is having the nomination "stolen" from him, they are idiots." Finally there is a link in the article written by Jon Ralston who was at the Nevada a mess and he is "convinced Sanders campaign had deliberately fed supporters spurious grievances over the rules in order to rationalize what was actually a fair-and-square Clinton victory in organizing for the event, which after all, simply confirmed Clinton's earlier win in February caucuses".
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 18, 2024 10:41:47 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2016 17:16:10 GMT
I don't think anyone, including Hillary, is saying Sanders should drop out of the race. Because as pointed out above and as Hillary has said herself she stayed in the race until the final primary. Maybe, but stating flat out that she will be the nominee sure sounds like the same thing to me. She has not said Bernie should drop out of the race. She is leaving that up to Bernie to decide what he wants to do. What she is doing is ignoring Bernie, for the most part, and moving her campaign in another direction. You may not see it but there is a difference. |
|
|
|
Post by BeckyTech on May 24, 2016 17:33:30 GMT
Those 11 reasons mostly make sense except I'm not following the logic of #2:
How is a white woman different than a white man when bringing up white privilege? Isn't "white privilege" gender neutral? |
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 18, 2024 10:41:47 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2016 17:43:28 GMT
Those 11 reasons mostly make sense except I'm not following the logic of #2:
How is a white woman different than a white man when bringing up white privilege? Isn't "white privilege" gender neutral? He shrugged off his losses in the South by saying the Southern States are too conservative for someone like him. But the reason he lost in these states is because they have high % of Black Americans and they overwhelmingly voted for Hillary. |
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 18, 2024 10:41:47 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2016 17:49:27 GMT
Those 11 reasons mostly make sense except I'm not following the logic of #2:
How is a white woman different than a white man when bringing up white privilege? Isn't "white privilege" gender neutral?
This article explains #2 better then I can..... |
|
|
|
Post by lisae on May 24, 2016 17:56:50 GMT
I think Sanders lost simply because Hillary Clinton's platform is more in line with what most Democrats believe. His free college idea is just not feasible. We can't pay for it whether we need to do it or not and I'm not sure we do. (We need to bring the cost of college down dramatically).
I seriously thought about voting for Sanders the last day or two before our primary because I think he is a good, decent man. He is probably the most honorable one running on either side but at the end of the day my beliefs align more fully with Hillary.
So to suggest that as a voter, I can't think about the issues and pick the person who most aligns with my beliefs isn't giving me a lot of credit and I don't give a lot of credit in return. I mean this comment at the whoever or whatever Daily Kos is, not at you the poster here.
|
|
MizIndependent
Drama Llama
Quit your bullpoop.
Posts: 5,836
Jun 25, 2014 19:43:16 GMT
|
Post by MizIndependent on May 24, 2016 18:16:09 GMT
I do not see the "fairness" in the super delegate system. Clinton came into this race with 450 super delegates in her pocket - some of which are voting against their state's choice.
Then you have the "fairness" of the media which miss-reports those numbers by including the super delegates as votes already voted, manipulating the perception of the voting public. The fact is, you remove the super delegate count and you have a much closer race.
Clinton - 1768
Sanders - 1494
Difference of 274 pledged delegates
Yes, Clinton will probably clinch the nomination and possibly do so by New Jersey, but I stand with everyone who has yet to cast their vote - this isn't over until the last vote it counted.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 18, 2024 10:41:47 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2016 18:26:53 GMT
I don't think anyone is suggesting voters shouldn't vote for the person who best aligns with their beliefs.
My beef , along with others including Daily Kos, with Sanders is what he is saying and trying to do to the Democratic Party on the whole.
Or I should say disappointment on how he has changed the tone of the primary elections by suggesting things that flat out didn't happen.
Just look how many threads were started on this board suggesting voter suppression and dirty tricks played against Sanders by both The Clinton Campaign and the DNC when in fact it was much ado about nothing.
The disappointment was he was going to run a different type of campaign about the issues but decided to change it to "they" aren't being fair to me when he didn't win the primaries he felt he should have won.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 18, 2024 10:41:47 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2016 18:32:40 GMT
I do not see the "fairness" in the super delegate system. Clinton came into this race with 450 super delegates in her pocket - some of which are voting against their state's choice. Then you have the "fairness" of the media which miss-reports those numbers by including the super delegates as votes already voted, manipulating the perception of the voting public. The fact is, you remove the super delegate count and you have a much closer race. Clinton - 1768 Sanders - 1494 Difference of 274 pledged delegates Yes, Clinton will probably clinch the nomination and possibly do so by New Jersey, but I stand with everyone who has yet to cast their vote - this isn't over until the last vote it counted. Clinton has gotten 2.9M more votes than Bernie. In spite of recent wins he has done very little to close the gap. In fact the difference is growing. That is the story. |
|
|
|
Post by lucyg on May 24, 2016 19:32:46 GMT
I have no problem with the super delegate situation. The whole point of super delegates is to protect the party from the voters going off the deep end and choosing someone wholly inappropriate as the nominee. I don't feel a need for the party's nomination process to be 100% small-d democratic.
If the Republicans had a similar system in place, maybe they wouldn't have to be saddled with Donald Trump as their nominee.
And really, I am sick to death of seeing a guy who isn't even an actual Democrat try to change the whole structure of how the Democratic party operates. I have reached the "screw you, Bernie" stage now.
|
|
|
|
Post by BeckyTech on May 25, 2016 20:07:35 GMT
Those 11 reasons mostly make sense except I'm not following the logic of #2:
How is a white woman different than a white man when bringing up white privilege? Isn't "white privilege" gender neutral?
This article explains #2 better then I can..... Thanks, yes, that makes it much clearer.
It kind of goes to when Cruz was still running and I was questioning the sanity of the people who wanted to back him if the Republicans had a contested or open convention. If you can't get a whole lot of votes from every state (and there were several where Cruz had single or very low double digits) how the heck can you hope to win a national election? It doesn't matter how many people are also in the running, you've got to be able to get a significant number yourself.
|
|
|
|
Post by BeckyTech on May 25, 2016 20:26:36 GMT
I have no problem with the super delegate situation. The whole point of super delegates is to protect the party from the voters going off the deep end and choosing someone wholly inappropriate as the nominee. I don't feel a need for the party's nomination process to be 100% small-d democratic. If the Republicans had a similar system in place, maybe they wouldn't have to be saddled with Donald Trump as their nominee. And really, I am sick to death of seeing a guy who isn't even an actual Democrat try to change the whole structure of how the Democratic party operates. I have reached the "screw you, Bernie" stage now. Your first paragraph is my understanding of how the whole super delegate system was originated: the voters went for someone who didn't stand a chance in the general and that's when the super delegate system was originated. This year it may stand them in good stead, although it could make for a rocky convention.
I do disagree with some of you because I definitely think the deck was stacked in Hillary's favor. All the way from the schedule of debates to the head of the party in Iowa driving around with a Hillary4 President plate who won't reveal the raw tally of the caucus there. Or at least the last I read, she wouldn't, but she did release them in previous elections.
Lucy, I've really been wondering about that: whether there are any "moderate" democrats left. I mean we hear all the time how Bernie has dragged Hillary to the left where it's going to be hard for her to pivot back for the general election. Is it that there are so many democrats that are that far left (as Bernie) or that they are just very vocal? Or is "moderate" a dirty word these days?
|
|
|
|
Post by lucyg on May 25, 2016 21:32:11 GMT
I have no problem with the super delegate situation. The whole point of super delegates is to protect the party from the voters going off the deep end and choosing someone wholly inappropriate as the nominee. I don't feel a need for the party's nomination process to be 100% small-d democratic. If the Republicans had a similar system in place, maybe they wouldn't have to be saddled with Donald Trump as their nominee. And really, I am sick to death of seeing a guy who isn't even an actual Democrat try to change the whole structure of how the Democratic party operates. I have reached the "screw you, Bernie" stage now. Your first paragraph is my understanding of how the whole super delegate system was originated: the voters went for someone who didn't stand a chance in the general and that's when the super delegate system was originated. This year it may stand them in good stead, although it could make for a rocky convention.
I do disagree with some of you because I definitely think the deck was stacked in Hillary's favor. All the way from the schedule of debates to the head of the party in Iowa driving around with a Hillary4 President plate who won't reveal the raw tally of the caucus there. Or at least the last I read, she wouldn't, but she did release them in previous elections.
Lucy, I've really been wondering about that: whether there are any "moderate" democrats left. I mean we hear all the time how Bernie has dragged Hillary to the left where it's going to be hard for her to pivot back for the general election. Is it that there are so many democrats that are that far left (as Bernie) or that they are just very vocal? Or is "moderate" a dirty word these days?
I think there are plenty of moderate Democrats left. Hillary is trying to pull in the Bernie supporters but there are still fewer of them than "mainstream" Democrats. |
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 18, 2024 10:41:47 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on May 28, 2016 4:20:33 GMT
link
I dragged this thread back because the local TV station printed a copy of an analysis by @fivethirtyeight on why Bernie and his supporters are wrong in thinking the primaries have not been fair or as some felt rigged. @fivethirtyeight goes into a lot of detail and analysis on why Hillary is winning. I mean a lot. What it all means is more Democrats want Hillary to be the nominee than Bernie despite what he has been saying. And if he keeps pulling stunts like he did today I suspect a lot more Democrats will not only not want Bernie to be the nominee but will want him out of the party altogether. Watching Rachel Maddow tonight and they had gotten hold of a letter Sanders attorney sent to the DNC demanding co-chairman's of two committees be removed because the Sanders Campaign feel they are too partisan. And if they aren't removed Sanders delegates will as Rachel put it " gum up the works" so nothing can get done including picking the nominee. I think it's unrealistic for the Sander's campaign to think by this time Democratic officials and committee members have not made their choice on who they are going to support. So this is another stunt on his part. Just like his stunt to debate Trump. If Trump were to debate Sanders he had no intention of debating issues. I mean how many of the Republican debates involved actual issues. What Trump would have done is use Bernie to attack Hillary. He would have either forced Bernie to defend Hillary or agree with his attacks. In any case Trump would have won. Again and this time with Bernie's help.
|
|
