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Post by gar on Jun 30, 2016 11:46:53 GMT
So if he doesn't want to be leader of the Conservatives/PM, what do you think is his goal now?
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wellway
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Post by wellway on Jun 30, 2016 12:00:45 GMT
Coward - letting someone else deal with the mess he has made. I am too angry with him to care about his future, according to his wiki entry he was born Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson. So apt.
I don't normally curse but I am finding myself inventing new words.
I think his goal is to avoid being remembered as the man who broke the union. It is clear he and Gove did not expect to win and had no plan and the enormity of the task ahead is beyond him. 5 Years down the road he might have the nerve to put himself forward as some knight in shining armour. Twitter is having a field day.
If you haven't seen the articles by Sarah Vine, Gove's wife and her leaked email, they are worth checking out.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2016 12:04:23 GMT
Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson. Is that pronounced Piffle? I'm glad he isn't running, he comes across as a totally spineless tit.
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Post by gar on Jun 30, 2016 12:07:02 GMT
I vaguely remember hearing something about that last night...will check it out. I didn't take him for a coward, I was surprised to read this news...but I guess nothing about politicians should shock any more!
Theresa May gets my vote - for what it's worth!
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Post by gar on Jun 30, 2016 12:07:33 GMT
Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson. Is that pronounced Piffle? I'm glad he isn't running, he comes across as a totally spineless tit. If it isn't it should be.
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wellway
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Post by wellway on Jun 30, 2016 12:11:07 GMT
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Post by gillyp on Jun 30, 2016 12:12:07 GMT
I've not seen the news yet. Damn the man and his stirring! TBH there are none that appeal to me as leader. Can we not just turn the clock back?
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wellway
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Post by wellway on Jun 30, 2016 12:15:21 GMT
Someone on Twitter said all this made House of Cards look like the Teletubbies.
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sueg
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Post by sueg on Jun 30, 2016 12:21:34 GMT
I think his goal is to avoid being remembered as the man who broke the union. It is clear he and Gove did not expect to win and had no plan and the enormity of the task ahead is beyond him. I have felt from his first press conference after the result was announced that Johnson had not expected Leave to win, and really had no idea what to do next. I also think they were blind-sided by Cameron basically saying 'well, you got us into this mess, now you can fix it' as he resigned. I believe Boris has worked out that he is F#ed whatever he does: Becomes leader, triggers Brexit, country has recession - he's over and remembered for that. Becomes leader, doesn't trigger Brexit - is remembered as the turncoat who didn't keep his word. Or he can quit now, having 'won' the referendum, and just be seen as a coward who wouldn't follow through for a few months, until the new leader does one of the above.
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Post by katiejane on Jun 30, 2016 12:25:27 GMT
I think his plan is to stay out of the fray and avoid any messy stuff that will be flying around. From the sidelines he is well placed to say what likes and throw criticism around to stay popular, before aiming at whatever political goal he has planned.
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wellway
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Post by wellway on Jun 30, 2016 12:25:54 GMT
sueg A commentator on The Guardian website said pretty much that The post reads: If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost. Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron. With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership. How? Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor. And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew. The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction. The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50? Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders? Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated. If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act. The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice. When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was “never”. When Michael Gove went on and on about “informal negotiations” ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take. All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.
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sueg
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Post by sueg on Jun 30, 2016 12:29:47 GMT
All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. What I think is saddest about this, is that the Remain campaign were saying it all along, but were mocked as 'scaremongers' by Leave. Add to that the backdown from promises on the NHS and immigration the morning after, and I can understand the anger and frustration of people on both sides of the vote.
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Post by gar on Jun 30, 2016 12:32:37 GMT
sueg A commentator on The Guardian website said pretty much that The post reads: If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost. Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron. With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership. How? Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor. And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew. The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction. The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50? Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders? Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated. If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act. The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice. When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was “never”. When Michael Gove went on and on about “informal negotiations” ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take. All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign. Indeed!! There's a lot of truth in that!
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anniebygaslight
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Post by anniebygaslight on Jun 30, 2016 12:35:22 GMT
I reckon Theresa May is the least worst choice here. Can't warm to Stephen Crabbe or whatever his name is.
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Post by gar on Jun 30, 2016 12:37:20 GMT
Please god not Jeremy Hunt!!!
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wellway
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Post by wellway on Jun 30, 2016 12:40:26 GMT
Please god not Jeremy Hunt!!! I thought he ruled himself out, couldn't see him with dealing with Merkel and co when he couldn't get the junior doctors on board
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Post by gar on Jun 30, 2016 12:44:37 GMT
Please god not Jeremy Hunt!!! I thought he ruled himself out, couldn't see him with dealing with Merkel and co when he couldn't get the junior doctors on board I misses that but great! How do you feel about Gove. He's not instantly likeable Imo but I wouldn't be surprised to see him up there at the forefront of the possibilities.
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wellway
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Post by wellway on Jun 30, 2016 12:45:54 GMT
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wellway
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Post by wellway on Jun 30, 2016 12:51:54 GMT
I thought he ruled himself out, couldn't see him with dealing with Merkel and co when he couldn't get the junior doctors on board I misses that but great! How do you feel about Gove. He's not instantly likeable Imo but I wouldn't be surprised to see him up there at the forefront of the possibilities. I was a school governor when he was Minister for Education. How he went about the changes he implemented horrified me, so I am not a fan at all. He doesn't seem to like experts - always dangerous. Won't be surprised if it's him and Theresa May. I said to my DH that if May wins and Angela Eagle wins the Labour leadership with Nicola Strugeon in Scotland and Leanne Wood in Wales, the place will be run by women.
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Post by mollycoddle on Jun 30, 2016 12:55:30 GMT
Not a British Pea, but I am interested in this. Thanks for sharing that article. I found this bit interesting: “This was absolutely categorically not meant to happen. David Cameron was not supposed to go. This was not what this referendum was about; that was not why Michael backed leave,” Vine wrote." Cameron really seems to have thrown a wrench in their plans.
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Post by gar on Jun 30, 2016 13:06:19 GMT
Not a British Pea, but I am interested in this. Thanks for sharing that article. I found this bit interesting: “This was absolutely categorically not meant to happen. David Cameron was not supposed to go. This was not what this referendum was about; that was not why Michael backed leave,” Vine wrote." Cameron really seems to have thrown a wrench in their plans. They should have seen it coming - how could he stay and oversee something he campaigned against?
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Post by mollycoddle on Jun 30, 2016 13:09:41 GMT
Not a British Pea, but I am interested in this. Thanks for sharing that article. I found this bit interesting: “This was absolutely categorically not meant to happen. David Cameron was not supposed to go. This was not what this referendum was about; that was not why Michael backed leave,” Vine wrote." Cameron really seems to have thrown a wrench in their plans. They should have seen it coming - how could he stay and oversee something he campaigned against? Oh, exactly. I was commenting on the dismay that they seem to be expressing. I have read several times that Cameron resigned at least partly to stick it to them. I'm curious about what you guys think.
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Post by gar on Jun 30, 2016 13:09:54 GMT
I misses that but great! How do you feel about Gove. He's not instantly likeable Imo but I wouldn't be surprised to see him up there at the forefront of the possibilities. I was a school governor when he was Minister for Education. How he went about the changes he implemented horrified me, so I am not a fan at all. He doesn't seem to like experts - always dangerous. Won't be surprised if it's him and Theresa May. I said to my DH that if May wins and Angela Eagle wins the Labour leadership with Nicola Strugeon in Scotland and Leanne Wood in Wales, the place will be run by women. Not a huge fan of all of them individually but that would be a huge deal wouldn't it!
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Post by pierkiss on Jun 30, 2016 13:10:11 GMT
I have a question and I'm not sure how to phrase it. If Brexit is causing so much turmoil and is causing your economy to fall, why don't you just say Nevermind, we're not doing this? I remember reading or hearing on the news that the vote could still be overturned by parliament? So why don't you just do that? Did I mishear that quote? I'm honestly asking and seriously confused.
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craftykitten
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Post by craftykitten on Jun 30, 2016 13:14:52 GMT
I have a question and I'm not sure how to phrase it. If Brexit is causing so much turmoil and is causing your economy to fall, why don't you just say Nevermind, we're not doing this? I remember reading or hearing on the news that the vote could still be overturned by parliament? So why don't you just do that? Did I mishear that quote? I'm honestly asking and seriously confused. Well, in theory Parliament could, but it would be political suicide for many MPs to try and stop it now. They offered us all a vote and it would be very difficult not to follow through. I am deeply disappointed to discover that Boris is the coward I always suspected - leaving someone else to carry out his dirty work. Michael Gove is a chinless wonder who won't listen to anyone. Teresa May campaign (quietly) for Remain, so it would be interesting to see how she implemented the Brexit. I thought Boris might have been the person who could negotiate his way through this - but even he said, before the referendum, that a 'No' vote was a way to negotiate a better deal with the rest of Europe rather than ACTUALLY leaving. However the rest of Europe (rightly so) doesn't seem to agree with that and wants us to exit as soon as possible.
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pudgygroundhog
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Jun 30, 2016 13:58:19 GMT
I think Cameron was smart to step down and it's really telling none of the "Leave" proponents want to step in - I think it shows they know what a CF it's going to be. Anyway, my question is - what is the process for Cameron's successor and how long will it take?
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BarbaraUK
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jun 30, 2016 14:07:40 GMT
Please god not Jeremy Hunt!!! ^I absolutely agree!
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sueg
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Post by sueg on Jun 30, 2016 14:16:35 GMT
I think Cameron was smart to step down and it's really telling none of the "Leave" proponents want to step in - I think it shows they know what a CF it's going to be. Anyway, my question is - what is the process for Cameron's successor and how long will it take? This is from the BBC - nominations closed today at midday UK time. Boris announced he was not standing shortly beforehand, at a press conference where people expected him to announce he was standing. I believe I read earlier in the week that Cameron wants the whole process over by September.
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Post by pb on Jun 30, 2016 15:14:02 GMT
Thank you for the discussion and links.
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joelise
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Post by joelise on Jun 30, 2016 16:32:51 GMT
If this all happened in a movie we'd all be saying that the plot was too far fetched and that this would never happen in real life!
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