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Post by monklady123 on Sept 11, 2016 16:59:15 GMT
I was reading an article about all the college pressure that kids have these days, especially in neighborhoods where there's a high expectation that everyone go to an elite college. Then coincidentally I was talking to a friend this morning who was telling me about her high school senior's struggles with calculus already after only one week of school. The girl took pre-calculus last year and this year is the actual class. She's really having a hard time, hates math, hates the teacher, hates everything (her words). She wants to drop it and take an art class. She doesn't need it to graduate and she doesn't need it to get into college (most colleges seem to require only up to algebra 2). She wants to major in history, although she's also interested in environmental issues. My friend says "well what if she changes her mind and wants to major in something that requires more math?" My thought was that if she decides one day that she needs calculus there are so many ways to get that class -- community college, regular college, summer school, night school... If it were my kid I'd let her drop it in an instant and hope she had a less stressful senior year and that she'd create lovely things in that art class. But I never was a very "pushy" type parent anyway. lol Both of my kids took only up to algebra 2 in high school and both are doing well in college, one in social work and the other in history. Obviously if one is going to be an engineer or something then you need calculus. But I think if a kid was headed that way in the first place they'd be the type who liked math anyway and probably wouldn't object to taking the class. Anyway... just my thoughts on stress and kids. The article was interesting and sad. There were kids who were getting a 3.9 gpa and were worried about it because it wasn't high enough.  Not everyone has to go to an Ivy League school, there are many many MANY good schools out there that are not quite as competitive. |
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J u l e e
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,531
Location: Cincinnati
Jun 28, 2014 2:50:47 GMT
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Post by J u l e e on Sept 11, 2016 17:02:05 GMT
Yes.
ETA - that's my short answer because I'm picking up my daughter from church and it got out early.
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Post by scraphop on Sept 11, 2016 17:05:40 GMT
I would let my son drop the class. I have a 4 year degree and am a CPA but I do not believe a kid has to go to college to be successful. I know plenty a plumbers that make a lot more many than some of the attorneys I know. What is important is finding a career you love.
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on Sept 11, 2016 17:06:02 GMT
In a heart beat.
My niece is applying to a university where I live. Her ACT score is above the average score of the University. But the avg. GPA is a a weighted 4.1 This from a smaller less competitive state university.
Which I think is ridiculous. It is like a kid can not get anything below an A or the rare B to get into a good school. Since when does everyone need a straight A's?
I would not push my kid to take a really hard class unless they needed it for their major or to graduate. I would also encourage my kid to take the hardest classes they could in the subjects they are interested in.
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Post by 950nancy on Sept 11, 2016 17:07:53 GMT
Good question. I think when kids sign up for classes, they don't always think through the complications. I also think it depends on the kid. I would probably let my oldest drop. He could become overwhelmed and not do well in his other classes. My youngest I would tell to buck up and just do it and he would be fine. My youngest had a 4.45 and stressed about getting into college. I think kids also place undo stress on themselves for all kinds of reasons. It is our job to know our kids and be cheerleaders and life coaches when needed.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Sept 11, 2016 17:08:09 GMT
I had a similar issue this year with my 16 year old DD. She took honors chemistry last year and she really struggled. This year she had the option of taking honors physics. She came to me and said she would rather take a semester of environmental science and a semester of astronomy instead of physics. I allowed her to do so. I am still hoping she will maybe take physics her senior year. But this child is unlikely to go into the sciences as a profession because it just doesn't interest her. So I'm not pushing it. I figure if she changes her mind she can always take it in college.
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Post by stingfan on Sept 11, 2016 17:09:01 GMT
Yep, I'd let her switch out. You don't need calculus to go to college. And she can take it when she gets there if it turns out that she needs it. Doesn't sound like that's a direction she's headed though.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Jun 1, 2024 17:47:55 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2016 17:24:26 GMT
If she needs calc in college her high school calc isn't going to be accepted for credit so she will need to take it again anyway.
Parents make so many assumptions about what goes on in an admissions office, I'd find it hysterical if it wasn't so detrimental to the high school kids being pressured to endure classes that won't be impacting a decision like mom thinks it will.
Anything beyond algebra 2 is only if the student KNOWS she wants to go into science... then it will give her a leg up on understanding the college material. But if her drive is in other areas she doesn't need it.
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smginaz Suzy
Pearl Clutcher
Je suis desole.
Posts: 2,606
Jun 26, 2014 17:27:30 GMT
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Post by smginaz Suzy on Sept 11, 2016 17:25:19 GMT
If it were Algebra II, no. But calculus? OK. And this is coming from someone who just finished PhD level multivariate stats. If she pivots during college, she will have plenty of opportunity to take whatever math is needed for her pivot. Seriously, you can't take pre-reqs for every potential career path. I always thought the entire point of college was to help find passion and direction. I am always astonished by high school kids that have settled on a major and a career and I wonder if they truly discover their passion or just learn to work.
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kelly8875
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,391 
Location: Lost in my supplies...
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Post by kelly8875 on Sept 11, 2016 17:27:42 GMT
In her case, I would let my kid drop the class and pick something else. It doesn't sound like she needs it, and if that changes in the future, she can take it then. Most careers will not require calculus.
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Post by SockMonkey on Sept 11, 2016 17:27:47 GMT
In a hot second, yes.
(I'm a teacher.)
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Post by 950nancy on Sept 11, 2016 17:35:01 GMT
If she needs calc in college her high school calc isn't going to be accepted for credit so she will need to take it again anyway.Parents make so many assumptions about what goes on in an admissions office, I'd find it hysterical if it wasn't so detrimental to the high school kids being pressured to endure classes that won't be impacting a decision like mom thinks it will. Anything beyond algebra 2 is only if the student KNOWS she wants to go into science... then it will give her a leg up on understanding the college material. But if her drive is in other areas she doesn't need it. Perhaps that depends on the high school and college? Both of my son's counted. He took Calc 3 as a freshman. |
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Post by Patter on Sept 11, 2016 17:39:50 GMT
For sure! Two of my girls are science majors in college (seniors), and one is just now taking calculus. She has already been accepted to a university for her master's degree so her waiting until her senior year of college to take it has not even been a problem.
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Post by littlemama on Sept 11, 2016 17:40:28 GMT
Yep. I had to talk my ds out of taking AP Calculus his senior year. He needs statistics for his degree, not calc, so I wanted him to take stats so he had some background in it. What it finally took was for him to talk to his pre-calc and algebra 2 teachers. Both told him that he would do well in AP Calc, but if stats was what he needed, then that is what he should take. He is currently a freshman in college, on a full academic scholarship, so it didn't hurt him.
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LeaP
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,939
Location: Los Angeles, CA where 405 meets 101
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Post by LeaP on Sept 11, 2016 17:57:55 GMT
Yes, my daughter dropped AP World History. Calculus is everywhere and she can take it later.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Jun 1, 2024 17:47:55 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2016 18:06:34 GMT
If she needs calc in college her high school calc isn't going to be accepted for credit so she will need to take it again anyway.Parents make so many assumptions about what goes on in an admissions office, I'd find it hysterical if it wasn't so detrimental to the high school kids being pressured to endure classes that won't be impacting a decision like mom thinks it will. Anything beyond algebra 2 is only if the student KNOWS she wants to go into science... then it will give her a leg up on understanding the college material. But if her drive is in other areas she doesn't need it. Perhaps that depends on the high school and college? Both of my son's counted. He took Calc 3 as a freshman. I"m more apt to think he took AP calc... the AP is important. AP is run by the college board and is accepted as ungraded credit. But a calc course taught by a high school that is not a College Board managed course I HIGHLY doubt any college took the credit for and would be very suspicious of being a diploma mill. Since the OP didn't mention it being AP I am not assuming it is. |
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~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,876
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Sept 11, 2016 18:11:45 GMT
If calculus is a struggle and she is going to need to take it in college, I suggest having her take it in high school. For one thing, she will have two semesters to learn the material instead of the typical 14 weeks in a college class. Even if she has to take it again it college, it's a real leg up for her to have the basics under her belt.
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Post by Merge on Sept 11, 2016 18:19:56 GMT
My daughter also just dropped AP World History (and is taking regular world history, which is all she needs to graduate). The rest of her schedule is pre-AP and she wants to focus on doing as well as possible in chemistry and algebra 2, and the reading requirements alone for WHAP were a couple of hours each night. Since she had thought through the decision and had a good reason for it, we let her do it.
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Post by bc2ca on Sept 11, 2016 18:23:29 GMT
Yes. In fact DS did drop AP Calc this year.
He really struggled with Honors PreCalc last year and I was not keen on him taking the AP Calc classes but he felt he had to in order to stay competitive. I was really concerned the Calc would take over his life and impact his other classes (AP Psych, AP Gov and AP ES) and it was already happening within the first couple of weeks of school. The funny thing is DH and I were completely unimpressed with his Calc teacher at the Back to School night so when DS asked how we felt about him dropping the class it was even easier to say "do it".
He has the math requirements for college and switched into a Financial Math class that he is loving and will now take AP Stats in the spring. He is able to easily stay on top of his other classes without the hours he had to put into Calc.
We didn't have Calc in HS when I graduated and my sis needed it for her degree. I found out years later that she signed up and dropped it every year of college, finally taking it during a summer session before her senior year.
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Post by kernriver on Sept 11, 2016 18:24:02 GMT
in real life, plans change. Her change is no more math. If she wants more math later, she can get it but if she's an artist its never going to happen. She's old enough to decide for herself on this one.
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Country Ham
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,313
Jun 25, 2014 19:32:08 GMT
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Post by Country Ham on Sept 11, 2016 18:25:58 GMT
This year she had the option of taking honors physics. She came to me and said she would rather take a semester of environmental science and a semester of astronomy instead of physics. I allowed her to do so. I am still hoping she will maybe take physics her senior year. Once again I am in awe of the educational opportunities available to some kids. I wish more was available across the board. |
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Post by jeremysgirl on Sept 11, 2016 18:33:14 GMT
This year she had the option of taking honors physics. She came to me and said she would rather take a semester of environmental science and a semester of astronomy instead of physics. I allowed her to do so. I am still hoping she will maybe take physics her senior year. Once again I am in awe of the educational opportunities available to some kids. I wish more was available across the board. We are a very large, urban district. My kids have a lot of variety of courses to choose from. Because we are a large, urban district with a wide variety of kids our school is not rated one of the best in our county. But I have had my kids in a variety of school districts in their lives from very small town to very large and urban and I have to say education is really what you make of it. I would rather my kids have the opportunities available to them. It's possible if you are a good student to get a quality education anywhere but sometimes you've got to go big to get the advantages that come with having a variety of courses to choose from. |
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Post by Darcy Collins on Sept 11, 2016 18:33:26 GMT
I think there's a few factors that I would weigh if it was my child. What are her specific college aspirations and what do they require. There is a massive range - depending on the selectivity of the college. My university did not offer any math lower than Calculus and I'd venture an estimate that fewer than 10% were admitted without calc in high school and they probably went to disadvantages high schools to be admitted without it.
But even if I determined that my kid didn't need a particularly difficult class, I'd encourage her to evaluate whether this would be a good preparation for college regardless. One of my toughest lessons freshman year in university was learning that school could be challenging. I'd never really struggled. I wouldn't set my kid up for failure, but if they'd cruised along and suddenly hit a challenging course - but one they could ultimately succeed in - I'd encourage them to stick with it and develop the skills that will serve them well in college.
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Post by anxiousmom on Sept 11, 2016 18:36:44 GMT
If she needs calc in college her high school calc isn't going to be accepted for credit so she will need to take it again anyway.Parents make so many assumptions about what goes on in an admissions office, I'd find it hysterical if it wasn't so detrimental to the high school kids being pressured to endure classes that won't be impacting a decision like mom thinks it will. Anything beyond algebra 2 is only if the student KNOWS she wants to go into science... then it will give her a leg up on understanding the college material. But if her drive is in other areas she doesn't need it. Perhaps that depends on the high school and college? Both of my son's counted. He took Calc 3 as a freshman. I was never in admissions, rather the advising side of the house, but my (admittedly rudimentary but backed up by experience based on two kids who navigated high school into college admission) is that yes, higher level classes count as classes taken, but unless they are AP classes and with a successful completion of the AP exam, the class doesn't count for college course work. You don't really get 'credit' IN college for those classes. There are some programs that like to see higher level math, but they aren't necessarily required for admission to college. The student may be required to have a successful completion of a higher level course to be accepted into the actual program of choice, but not for admission into the college or university. Granted, it can be confusing. If it is really concerning to you all as a family, then I would suggest a trip to the guidance counselor at the school for clarification. But...as someone who does have a history degree, higher level math never once entered into my degree requirements. In fact, once I got through the basic level math that was needed, I gratefully never stepped on that side of campus again. And to have struggled through Calculus for what amounted to no good reason at all beyond satisfying my parents would have made me really angry. Particularly when the bottom line was that it was not required for anyone-not to graduate from high school or by a college as an entrance requirement. So in this case? Yes, I wouldn't have a single qualm about allowing a kid to drop a class like that. If she decides later she wants to take it in college, she can work her way up to it then...because again, without taking some kind of placement test or acceptable AP/Dual Enrollment credits, she will still have to take what classes the college/university wants her take. Which likely will be generally required math anyway. |
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Post by hop2 on Sept 11, 2016 18:37:27 GMT
We begged our DD to take a lower calculus class. Begged. She never needed calculus much less the extra hard AP calculus ( AP calc BC ) but she passed with a B and she still got a great scholarship so it's fine now. But there were points during the year where it definitely caused tears. It 'destroyed' her GPA ( her words ) dropping get from6th to 13th, which mattered at the time to her, not to us. And there were points that her grade was failing ( failed 1st test/quiz in a semester ) It was a stressful scary ride for no reason.
However, in hindsight, it was good that she challenged herself. And she probably could have done better but she refused to go for extra help because her teacher was pregnant and the extra help was another teacher whom she didn't like.
DS listened (partly ), and took AP calc AB ( the lesser one ) but he will actually need it. Fingers crossed that he does ok. He is actually already 13th and he doesn't care like DD did so that won't phase him at all.
So yes I not only would allow my child to drop a hard class but if it's not needed I'd encourage them to.
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scrapngranny
Pearl Clutcher
Only slightly senile
Posts: 4,765
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Post by scrapngranny on Sept 11, 2016 18:39:23 GMT
Without a doubt I would let her drop it.
My grandson wanted to drop pre-calculus last year the first couple of weeks of school because he said it was too hard. My DD told him no, that he hadn't even tried yet. In the end he kept the class and got A's all year. He just didn't want to work during his senior year and was going to be the only class that wasn't a gravy class. I guess the bottom line is you have to know the kid and not create more pressure than necessary.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Sept 11, 2016 18:43:53 GMT
I think there's a few factors that I would weigh if it was my child. What are her specific college aspirations and what do they require. There is a massive range - depending on the selectivity of the college. My university did not offer any math lower than Calculus and I'd venture an estimate that fewer than 10% were admitted without calc in high school and they probably went to disadvantages high schools to be admitted without it. But even if I determined that my kid didn't need a particularly difficult class, I'd encourage her to evaluate whether this would be a good preparation for college regardless. One of my toughest lessons freshman year in university was learning that school could be challenging. I'd never really struggled. I wouldn't set my kid up for failure, but if they'd cruised along and suddenly hit a challenging course - but one they could ultimately succeed in - I'd encourage them to stick with it and develop the skills that will serve them well in college. I think you make a great point too. I think a lot of times our kids especially the really smart ones are more wrapped up in their GPA than in the actual learning. I think that it's important to consider whether the child is just afraid of failure as well. Like I said above my DD struggled with honors chemistry. I still think it was valuable for her to take and learn. I have really tried with my kids to stress the learning rather than the grades. She pressures herself and I don't need to add to that pressure. |
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Post by hop2 on Sept 11, 2016 18:49:49 GMT
This year she had the option of taking honors physics. She came to me and said she would rather take a semester of environmental science and a semester of astronomy instead of physics. I allowed her to do so. I am still hoping she will maybe take physics her senior year. Once again I am in awe of the educational opportunities available to some kids. I wish more was available across the board. Where do you live?? I'm not trying to be rude but your statement flat out amazes me. Those are pretty readily available classes. |
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Post by meridon on Sept 11, 2016 18:54:58 GMT
Yes, because I was that kid. I had to have 4 years of math and so ended up taking calculus because I had taken algebra in 8th grade. Under the requirements at that time, calculus was my only option. I hated it and struggled all year. I had to quit my part time job , and for 2nd semester, I was going to calculus during my band period and my math period because I needed the extra help. I finished the class with a 63 and have never worked so hard for a D in my life. It killed my GPA and was of zero use as I became a social studies teacher. It also confirmed for me every negative thought I ever had about being bad at math, etc. If this student was thinking about engineering or nursing, etc. then I would be more likely to take the "but i's character building" approach. If she fully intends to be a history major, then the art course will be much more beneficial and potentially related to a future job.
In my state, many schools don't even look at weighted GPA anymore. Just the unweighted. So many kids were taking honors/AP and graduating with ridiculously high GPAs. I think our valedictorian last year had a 5.2.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Sept 11, 2016 19:02:26 GMT
Once again I am in awe of the educational opportunities available to some kids. I wish more was available across the board. Where do you live?? I'm not trying to be rude but your statement flat out amazes me. Those are pretty readily available classes. You know I grew up in a town where each grade had approximately 50-60 kids per grade level and nothing like that was available in the high school. In fact when I reached 8th grade I was filling out my schedule for high school and my parents were told that I would have to attend the community college for math and science junior and senior years. At that time there was no school of choice option so my parents chose to send me to the Catholic school in our county. Even in the Catholic school which was much larger at 170 kids in a graduating class we didn't have those types of options. |
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Not everyone has to go to an Ivy League school, there are many many MANY good schools out there that are not quite as competitive. 
My original pea date was November 1999 and my number was 1803
