AmeliaBloomer
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Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Oct 11, 2016 2:31:05 GMT
I thought this thread had slipped away!
Fortunately, it's been revived, so here's another college story about HRC, this time about being taunted at her law school exam.
(I originally thought it interesting that she uses this anecdote to explain her detachment, but now I'm thinking it's also fascinating in light of the control she showed last night. No matter what you think of her candidacy, it's hard to deny that a woman of her generation has had to hold her tongue more frequently than her male peers...certainly more than her current opponent, who is admired by many for saying whatever he wants throughout his career. How would these respective styles play out in a presidency?)
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Post by coffeetalk on Oct 11, 2016 2:35:16 GMT
Dick Morris, former Senior Political Advisor to President Clinton, fills in the blanks and corrects her version of her work on social issues. The linked analysis is from Snopes of ''A column written by Clinton adviser-turned-opponent Dick Morris pointed out details elided in a 2007 Hillary Clinton campaign ad narrated by President Bill Clinton.'' The column by Morris contains many of the same claims made in the video you linked. SNOPESI don't like relying solely on Snopes for analysis of the veracity of claims, but in many instances I don't have the time, energy or resources to do a thorough analysis from which to form my own conclusion. SaveSave
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Post by secondlife on Oct 11, 2016 2:38:24 GMT
Dick Morris, former Senior Political Advisor to President Clinton, fills in the blanks and corrects her version of her work on social issues. I stopped after he complained that she went into the courtroom to watch for errors that could reverse a court outcome unfavorable to her clients. I thought that was just lawyering. But maybe someone can tell me otherwise. It's possible I've watched too much L&O in my lifetime. Even if her clients were guilty, don't the guilty still deserve their time in court, to be proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt? Seems to me that defending the guilty is part of that process. Lawyers defend guilty people all the time. We need that to happen as a way of protecting the ones who are not guilty.
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Post by annabella on Oct 11, 2016 3:32:07 GMT
Even if her clients were guilty, don't the guilty still deserve their time in court, to be proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt? Seems to me that defending the guilty is part of that process. Lawyers defend guilty people all the time. We need that to happen as a way of protecting the ones who are not guilty. From my link: Three men took out a sixth grader for a car ride at night. One man raped the girl. That same night she went to the ER to report the rape and her injuries proved an assault took place. The man Hillary was defending said he was guilty. He was looking at 30 years in prison for rape and requested a female attorney from the state. He got a plea deal involving a lesser charge that carried a five-year sentence, of which the judge suspended four years and allowed two months credit of time already served towards the remaining year. I don't know if times were different in 1975, if she was under pressure to do a good job, but it just doesn't look good for Hillary.
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Post by elaine on Oct 11, 2016 3:37:23 GMT
Even if her clients were guilty, don't the guilty still deserve their time in court, to be proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt? Seems to me that defending the guilty is part of that process. Lawyers defend guilty people all the time. We need that to happen as a way of protecting the ones who are not guilty. From my link: Three men took out a sixth grader for a car ride at night. One man raped the girl. That same night she went to the ER to report the rape and her injuries proved an assault took place. The man Hillary was defending said he was guilty. He was looking at 30 years in prison for rape and requested a female attorney from the state. He got a plea deal involving a lesser charge that carried a five-year sentence, of which the judge suspended four years and allowed two months credit of time already served towards the remaining year. I don't know if times were different in 1975, if she was under pressure to do a good job, but it just doesn't look good for Hillary. Annabella, she was ASSIGNED the case by the sitting Judge. She went to the judge and said she didn't want to defend the guy, it made her sick, and could he please excuse her and assign another lawyer. The judge refused. At that point, if she refused the case, she would have been disbarred and couldn't practice law again. At the beginning of your career as a lawyer, that you worked hard and spent thousands of dollars to earn, would you have just walked away at that point?
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Post by freecharlie on Oct 11, 2016 3:45:38 GMT
Even if her clients were guilty, don't the guilty still deserve their time in court, to be proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt? Seems to me that defending the guilty is part of that process. Lawyers defend guilty people all the time. We need that to happen as a way of protecting the ones who are not guilty. From my link: Three men took out a sixth grader for a car ride at night. One man raped the girl. That same night she went to the ER to report the rape and her injuries proved an assault took place. The man Hillary was defending said he was guilty. He was looking at 30 years in prison for rape and requested a female attorney from the state. He got a plea deal involving a lesser charge that carried a five-year sentence, of which the judge suspended four years and allowed two months credit of time already served towards the remaining year. I don't know if times were different in 1975, if she was under pressure to do a good job, but it just doesn't look good for Hillary. I'm not sure why it doesn't look good for her. Our justice system is based on attorneys doing what is best for their clients, not the world. She did her job. The victim and her mother did not want to have to testify and a plea deal saved the victim from doing that. I think the judge screwed up with the suspended sentence, but I think clinton did exactly what she should have done as a court appointed attorney.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2016 3:49:34 GMT
Dick Morris, former Senior Political Advisor to President Clinton, fills in the blanks and corrects her version of her work on social issues. Gia I have had many discussions with you on this board and tried to be respectful of you. But seriously this is so damn immature of you I can't take you seriously. There are so many CLEAR examples here of Hillary Clinton's good work and you have to dump this doctored up garbage here? Seriously? How about take the time to think through even half of what has been posted. You claim over and over that you are you are not pro-Trump, but dagnabit your constant posting of made up rhetoric sure does not show that. Even if you HATE Hillary you could at least find her work for children and the disabled positive. I also try to be respectful. I apologized about the cartoon bubble the first time and put a disclaimer up that it wasn't the point of posting it, but that I didn't make the video, so I have no control over what was put on it. I apologize if it looks like I was being disrespectful, but I wasn't. I was just posting information about Hillary from someone who knows the truth. And after listening to what he had to say, along with her own words and actions I don't find anything she claims, to be the truth much less positive.
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Post by secondlife on Oct 11, 2016 3:58:41 GMT
Even if her clients were guilty, don't the guilty still deserve their time in court, to be proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt? Seems to me that defending the guilty is part of that process. Lawyers defend guilty people all the time. We need that to happen as a way of protecting the ones who are not guilty. From my link: Three men took out a sixth grader for a car ride at night. One man raped the girl. That same night she went to the ER to report the rape and her injuries proved an assault took place. The man Hillary was defending said he was guilty. He was looking at 30 years in prison for rape and requested a female attorney from the state. He got a plea deal involving a lesser charge that carried a five-year sentence, of which the judge suspended four years and allowed two months credit of time already served towards the remaining year. I don't know if times were different in 1975, if she was under pressure to do a good job, but it just doesn't look good for Hillary. So, which defendants should defense lawyers not defend for fear of, you know, just not looking good? This is not rhetorical. Which defendants should not be defended to the best ability of their defense lawyers?
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Post by tmarschall on Oct 11, 2016 4:36:19 GMT
I don't know how I'm going to vote. Every day I'm more disgusted by D.T. So don't say anything mean to me. But who pays taxes they don't owe? I lost money in the stock market in the 90's, too. I just took my final deduction for the loss last year. Not paying taxes should not be on his very long list of reasons we don't like him. I don't know what she's done for America. I'm not going to say anything mean to you, and you're right: no one pays taxes they don't owe. That's never been the issue. There are two issues with Trump's tax problem as I see it. One, that he has regularly disparaged people who are too poor to pay taxes as leeches on society, and that his tax plan includes even more tax breaks for the wealthy. Two, that he apparently sees no problem with a system that allows a middle class worker to pay his "fair share" and a wealthy billionaire to pay nothing. He would have gotten a lot further if he had released his most recent returns, which probably also show that he's paid nothing, and simply said (as Warren Buffett has) that the system that allows him to do this is unfair and needs to be changed, and that he's got his best people working on a tax plan that is fair for all Americans. But instead, he whined that he had done nothing illegal, and made it clear that he thinks this kind of thing is good for America and should continue happening. That doesn't sit well with this middle-class school teacher who pays her fair share every year to keep our country running. The thing is that Trump has spent his life for the betterment of one person: Donald Trump. His whole goal has been to enrich himself and his family, often to the detriment of those around him. Whether you like Hillary Clinton or not, there's no denying that she has spent much of her life in the service of others. Has she also taken opportunities to make money? Of course. But if you look at the record I linked above, the fact is that this woman with her resume could be enjoying a very cushy and wealthy life as a named partner at a swanky law firm somewhere. Heck, she could probably just be enjoying retirement. Instead, she has spent her life working on women's and family issues, championing affordable health care, overcoming the embarrassments her husband heaped on her while in office to rise up and make a political career for herself, and serving as Secretary of State for her political rival instead of relaxing into a comfortable retirement and enjoying the paid speech circuit. Is she Mother Theresa? No. Please don't think I'm naive enough to think she's perfect. But when it became clear to me that Bernie was not happening, and Gary Johnson was not going to be a viable candidate, I started looking more closely into what had been said about her over the years and what was true and not true. I read over the Benghazi timeline very carefully. I read all of what was said about the infamous emails. And I looked at the years and years of public service, most of which were out of the spotlight or in a subordinate position to Bill, and I realized that I could not only support this woman for president but that I could do so gladly. I don't think anyone runs for president in our country without a few skeletons in his/her closet. I can live with her skeletons. I think she has worked and will continue to work for the benefit of this country and its regular people. That's all. Excellent response, Merge. I want to like this twice...or like, eight times or so.
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Post by tmarschall on Oct 11, 2016 4:47:12 GMT
I just got back from a Virginia trip yesterday. The election was the topic of a lot of conversation, and it was remarkable to me that both Virginia Republicans and Democrats had nothing bad to say about Kaine. Not everyone agreed with his policy, but over and over I kept hearing what a decent person he was, and how devoted he was to his state. Thanks, that's good to hear. SaveSaveYes, unlike many of us in Indiana, who are happy to see Pence go but didn't want him to end up in Washington!
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Post by lucyg on Oct 11, 2016 5:01:01 GMT
Dick Morris had a falling-out with the Clintons back in the '90s. He has been badmouthing them on Fox News for years now. If he had anything worthwhile to say, other, more neutral news media would have picked him up years ago. Anyone who takes his word as gospel is very foolish.
He may know the truth, but that doesn't mean he tells the truth. Big difference.
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Deleted
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May 11, 2024 6:16:24 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2016 5:28:05 GMT
From my link: Three men took out a sixth grader for a car ride at night. One man raped the girl. That same night she went to the ER to report the rape and her injuries proved an assault took place. The man Hillary was defending said he was guilty. He was looking at 30 years in prison for rape and requested a female attorney from the state. He got a plea deal involving a lesser charge that carried a five-year sentence, of which the judge suspended four years and allowed two months credit of time already served towards the remaining year. I don't know if times were different in 1975, if she was under pressure to do a good job, but it just doesn't look good for Hillary. Annabella, she was ASSIGNED the case by the sitting Judge. She went to the judge and said she didn't want to defend the guy, it made her sick, and could he please excuse her and assign another lawyer. The judge refused. At that point, if she refused the case, she would have been disbarred and couldn't practice law again. At the beginning of your career as a lawyer, that you worked hard and spent thousands of dollars to earn, would you have just walked away at that point?
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Post by ntsf on Oct 11, 2016 5:37:13 GMT
even if she volunteered to be the lawyer on the case.. all defendants deserve a strong and good advocate..no matter what they have done. to hold this against hillary would mean you would never elect a criminal defense lawyer to any office...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2016 5:40:57 GMT
Dick Morris had a falling-out with the Clintons back in the '90s. He has been badmouthing them on Fox News for years now. If he had anything worthwhile to say, other, more neutral news media would have picked him up years ago. Anyone who takes his word as gospel is very foolish. He may know the truth, but that doesn't mean he tells the truth. Big difference. It's very telling that so many people all through the decades have all had such major issues with the Clintons. There are so many Democrats that have been around forever and don't have these issues. You have to wonder if it's Right wing conspiracists, crazy, bimbos, trailer trash, someone looking to make a buck, why are the other democrats not experiencing any of this. At some point it makes you think about the things they lied about and have since been proven true and the one constant in all of these issues, Bill and Hillary.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2016 6:18:43 GMT
Dick Morris had a falling-out with the Clintons back in the '90s. He has been badmouthing them on Fox News for years now. If he had anything worthwhile to say, other, more neutral news media would have picked him up years ago. Anyone who takes his word as gospel is very foolish. He may know the truth, but that doesn't mean he tells the truth. Big difference. It's very telling that so many people all through the decades have all had such major issues with the Clintons. There are so many Democrats that have been around forever and don't have these issues. You have to wonder if it's Right wing conspiracists, crazy, bimbos, trailer trash, someone looking to make a buck, why are the other democrats not experiencing any of this. At some point it makes you think about the things they lied about and have since been proven true and the one constant in all of these issues, Bill and Hillary. What is telling is how you may be making things up. One has to believe that when you make the statement that white supremacists support Hillary. I mean do you understand what white supremacits advocate? What self respecting white supremacist would support a candidate who wants a path for citizenship for undocumented non-white immigrants? The key word being white.
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Post by elaine on Oct 11, 2016 11:11:42 GMT
Annabella, she was ASSIGNED the case by the sitting Judge. She went to the judge and said she didn't want to defend the guy, it made her sick, and could he please excuse her and assign another lawyer. The judge refused. At that point, if she refused the case, she would have been disbarred and couldn't practice law again. At the beginning of your career as a lawyer, that you worked hard and spent thousands of dollars to earn, would you have just walked away at that point? Wrong. from the Washington Post this morning: Eta: from Snopes
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2016 11:38:48 GMT
Wrong. from the Washington Post this morning: Not wrong. In Clinton’s first recorded commentary on the case, she said she took the case as a favor for a local prosecutor. In taped conversations that took place in the early 1980s, Clinton told reporter Roy Reed that she was approached by a prosecutor who told her the rapist wanted to be defended by a female lawyer. “A prosecutor called me years ago, said that he had a guy who was accused of rape and the guy wanted a woman lawyer—would I do it as a favor to him?” said Clinton in audio first released by the Washington Free Beacon in 2014.Here it is, in her own words at the time vs, WaPo's version today:
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Post by elaine on Oct 11, 2016 11:55:13 GMT
Wrong. from the Washington Post this morning: Not wrong. In Clinton’s first recorded commentary on the case, she said she took the case as a favor for a local prosecutor. In taped conversations that took place in the early 1980s, Clinton told reporter Roy Reed that she was approached by a prosecutor who told her the rapist wanted to be defended by a female lawyer. “A prosecutor called me years ago, said that he had a guy who was accused of rape and the guy wanted a woman lawyer—would I do it as a favor to him?” said Clinton in audio first released by the Washington Free Beacon in 2014.Here it is, in her own words at the time vs, WaPo's version today: But she didn't say that she took it as a favor to him. Source after source have found that a judge appointed her to the case. The prosecutor may have called her about it as a heads up, but it was a judge who appointed her. She didn't volunteer.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2016 12:01:28 GMT
Not wrong. In Clinton’s first recorded commentary on the case, she said she took the case as a favor for a local prosecutor. In taped conversations that took place in the early 1980s, Clinton told reporter Roy Reed that she was approached by a prosecutor who told her the rapist wanted to be defended by a female lawyer. “A prosecutor called me years ago, said that he had a guy who was accused of rape and the guy wanted a woman lawyer—would I do it as a favor to him?” said Clinton in audio first released by the Washington Free Beacon in 2014.Here it is, in her own words at the time vs, WaPo's version today: But she didn't say that she took it as a favor to him. Source after source have found that a judge appointed her to the case. The prosecutor may have called her about it as a heads up, but it was a judge who appointed her. She didn't volunteer. I disagree. If it was appointed to her she doesn't have a choice, there would be no need to ask her to do it as a favor.
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Post by elaine on Oct 11, 2016 13:02:55 GMT
But she didn't say that she took it as a favor to him. Source after source have found that a judge appointed her to the case. The prosecutor may have called her about it as a heads up, but it was a judge who appointed her. She didn't volunteer. I disagree. If it was appointed to her she doesn't have a choice, there would be no need to ask her to do it as a favor. Correct. And the paperwork showed it was a court appointment - hence the multiple sources talking about it as such. The guy had a male lawyer originally and petitioned the judge for a female lawyer. Again, from Snopes:
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Post by elaine on Oct 11, 2016 13:30:03 GMT
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Post by annabella on Oct 11, 2016 14:07:45 GMT
Annabella, she was ASSIGNED the case by the sitting Judge. She went to the judge and said she didn't want to defend the guy, it made her sick, and could he please excuse her and assign another lawyer. The judge refused. At that point, if she refused the case, she would have been disbarred and couldn't practice law again. At the beginning of your career as a lawyer, that you worked hard and spent thousands of dollars to earn, would you have just walked away at that point? I didn't say anything about her walking away, I was saying it looks horrible that she worked so hard for her client to get off so easy.
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moodyblue
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Jun 26, 2014 21:07:23 GMT
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Post by moodyblue on Oct 11, 2016 14:24:58 GMT
Annabella, she was ASSIGNED the case by the sitting Judge. She went to the judge and said she didn't want to defend the guy, it made her sick, and could he please excuse her and assign another lawyer. The judge refused. At that point, if she refused the case, she would have been disbarred and couldn't practice law again. At the beginning of your career as a lawyer, that you worked hard and spent thousands of dollars to earn, would you have just walked away at that point? I didn't say anything about her walking away, I was saying it looks horrible that she worked so hard for her client to get off so easy. That's what lawyers do.
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Post by elaine on Oct 11, 2016 14:50:02 GMT
Annabella, she was ASSIGNED the case by the sitting Judge. She went to the judge and said she didn't want to defend the guy, it made her sick, and could he please excuse her and assign another lawyer. The judge refused. At that point, if she refused the case, she would have been disbarred and couldn't practice law again. At the beginning of your career as a lawyer, that you worked hard and spent thousands of dollars to earn, would you have just walked away at that point? I didn't say anything about her walking away, I was saying it looks horrible that she worked so hard for her client to get off so easy. In the end, her client got off so easy because the lab that the police sent the incriminating square cut from the defendent's underwear threw it away after running their tests on it, so that it wasn't possible to run the sample through an independent lab. So, the plea deal to a lesser charge was due to the mishandling of the evidence, rather than Hillary's work. I have a bunch of articles quoted upthread, I won't bore you with them again, but it's worth a read if you are really interested in the case and why people familiar with the world of the law and lawyers don't fault her in the slightest.
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Post by secondlife on Oct 11, 2016 15:02:52 GMT
Annabella, she was ASSIGNED the case by the sitting Judge. She went to the judge and said she didn't want to defend the guy, it made her sick, and could he please excuse her and assign another lawyer. The judge refused. At that point, if she refused the case, she would have been disbarred and couldn't practice law again. At the beginning of your career as a lawyer, that you worked hard and spent thousands of dollars to earn, would you have just walked away at that point? I didn't say anything about her walking away, I was saying it looks horrible that she worked so hard for her client to get off so easy. But the point still remains that she was a defense attorney. What is a defense attorney supposed to do but work for his or her client? What happens to our defense system without quality defense attorneys? Regardless of the heinous details of the case - we have to look at the big picture here. People are furious that a defense attorney defended a guilty client. That's short sighted. The case is awful. The girl was absolutely a victim. No one denies that. But the defense attorney has a job to do. This is very important.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Oct 11, 2016 15:12:19 GMT
I didn't say anything about her walking away, I was saying it looks horrible that she worked so hard for her client to get off so easy. That's what lawyers do. True - but it's also why defense attorneys aren't particularly popular. I respect our system, and feel strongly that ever defendant deserves a fair hearing. It doesn't make me feel better when a child rapist gets off.
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Post by jassy on Oct 11, 2016 15:24:10 GMT
I can not be specific because I have a rule about not giving identifying info on the internet, and I'm sure some will write off what I say as bullshit.
But I know this for a fact to be true. Senator Clinton fought relentlessly to help my son, who was very ill. I don't even live in New York, but when my Senator called Senator Clinton's office because, yup, she had a lot of sway and power as a former first lady and senator, and she took the ball and ran with it and did everything in her power to right a wrong that was done to my son. There was NOTHING in it for her. I couldn't even vote for her because I wasn't a constituent! I'm a middle class woman in a middle state with no power or connection. My son was a baby dying in a hospital because he was being screwed over by politics. I will PROUDLY vote for Hillary Clinton in this election for all she HAS done for our country (shared very well here!) and all she's done for my family.
This woman has survived an epic manufactured smear campaign against her for decades. Trump's right about one thing - she doesn't give up and she's a fighter.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2016 20:07:12 GMT
I disagree. If it was appointed to her she doesn't have a choice, there would be no need to ask her to do it as a favor. Correct. And the paperwork showed it was a court appointment - hence the multiple sources talking about it as such. The guy had a male lawyer originally and petitioned the judge for a female lawyer. I can find nothing in the court documents showing it was a court appointment. Unless you can link to a specific document that I missed, showing that, I'll choose to believe the audio of her actual words from way back when, that she took it as a favor vs. the adjusted version of the articles written this year that she was court appointed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2016 20:17:53 GMT
I didn't say anything about her walking away, I was saying it looks horrible that she worked so hard for her client to get off so easy. But the point still remains that she was a defense attorney. What is a defense attorney supposed to do but work for his or her client? What happens to our defense system without quality defense attorneys? Regardless of the heinous details of the case - we have to look at the big picture here. People are furious that a defense attorney defended a guilty client. That's short sighted. The case is awful. The girl was absolutely a victim. No one denies that. But the defense attorney has a job to do. This is very important. I agree that a defense attorney has a job to do and she has to show some semblance of doing the job well. I have a problem with someone that can look at a 12 year old who was raped and beaten so badly that she was in a coma and then use the defense that she was making it up. To win at all costs, even if it mentally destroyed a child in the process, along with the way she "crucified" (Hillary's own word in one case) some of her husbands mistresses/accusers shows me one portion of who she is.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2016 20:33:59 GMT
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