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Post by kellybelly77 on Oct 22, 2016 13:40:33 GMT
This doesn't affect me but is playing out on Facebook in my area.
A local pumpkin patch announced on their Facebook page yesterday that their bank alerted them to hundreds of transactions from 2015 that never batched properly. Something about the card reader was attached to a computer that crashed and they are just now hooking this particular reader up this year. They got a message from their bank this past Sunday when they went to batch out transactions that there were tons left from 2015 that were never properly batched and that they were sending them through.
So they announced Friday that you may see charges on your cards that were incurred in 2015. But the message was after the fact as the charges were pushed through earlier in the week.
There are tons of people upset! On their page, on a moms page I belong to and on a local community page. There seem to be 3 groups. One, bad business not knowing that hundreds on transactions never cleared. Obviously they have bad accounting practices if they didn't notice thousands and thousands of dollars missing. Two, people saw the charges Sunday and assumed they were fraudulent since they hadn't been there this year. So they called their banks and debit cards were shut down and now have to wait on new ones. Also, some people talked about incurring overdraft fees since they weren't anticipating the charges. These were the most vocal. People are calling for fees to be repaid to them. Three, you should have noticed last year that you weren't charged. You actually bought the goods so you shouldn't be upset you have to pay now.
I keep going back and forth between thinking people should have noticed it last year and tracked it down then and thinking what a pain in the *ss it is to have your debit card shut down for a week. I had to re-set up all kinds of automatic payments, etc when mine was fraudulently used. So I feel for those folks too!
And the business is not really helping themselves either. Just saying they were sorry for the inconvenience but they are a small business. The owner did eventually tell people who were negatively affected to call her directly so maybe she is working on something. It's a mess for sure! We actually went there last year but dh always likes to pay for everything with cash.
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Post by lucyg on Oct 22, 2016 13:46:35 GMT
People actually think you (the affected individuals) should have noticed when a charge didn't go through last year, so you have no business complaining when the charge goes through unexpectedly this year? WOW.
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Post by myshelly on Oct 22, 2016 13:49:42 GMT
Is there not some kind of time limit for charges?
I think there should be.
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Post by peasapie on Oct 22, 2016 13:50:08 GMT
There is probably a time limit on these things. People who don't like it can contest the charge with their credit card companies and see if they get a rebate.
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Post by kellybelly77 on Oct 22, 2016 13:52:29 GMT
Is there not some kind of time limit for charges? I think there should be. I don't think so. My coworker came from a bank and he said that as long as the charges were valid from last year that the credit card processing people were probably obligated to push them through.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Oct 22, 2016 13:53:19 GMT
Merchants have to also abid by the rules of their cc processing--I would first refute the charge (causing a (possibly temporary) chargeback on the merchant) and find out what the billing "rule" that the merchant has to follow--there is a time limit in which they must follow.
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Post by terri on Oct 22, 2016 13:53:43 GMT
If they didn't notice hundreds of transactions, I don't think it is fair to expect people to notice one transaction that didn't go through. Many people live paycheck to paycheck and I can see how they would be mad about charges going through a year later. They should have at least let people know before the charges went through.
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gloryjoy
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Jun 26, 2014 12:35:32 GMT
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Post by gloryjoy on Oct 22, 2016 13:54:53 GMT
Sometimes I check my bank account online, and sometimes I don't. Yeah it's bad of me but if it's something small like the pumpkin patch, I may not have noticed it at all.
So yeah if I charge goes thru a year later I might be left scratching my head thinking "what the heck, I haven't been there this year?". I don't think I'd complain about it, it's not my nature, but I might think my card was hacked.
And as for giving a heads up, how is the pumpkin patch supposed to give you a heads up?
I think this is just an all around bad situation, with no easy solution. And I don't want a free pumpkin or anything else to fix it, because if you don't bill your customers for an entire year, I'm probably not going to there ever again.
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Post by kellybelly77 on Oct 22, 2016 13:55:07 GMT
People actually think you (the affected individuals) should have noticed when a charge didn't go through last year, so you have no business complaining when the charge goes through unexpectedly this year? WOW. Someone even quoted Dave Ramsey! It got pretty mean! They basically said that if you were paying attention to your account you would have noticed it didn't come through. I use YNAB to budget so all transactions get entered right away so I would have noticed it didn't clear. But I might not have before I started faithfully entering all transactions and balancing my account.
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YooHoot
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Jun 26, 2014 3:11:50 GMT
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Post by YooHoot on Oct 22, 2016 14:01:17 GMT
There has to be a time limit. Just like when checks aren't cashed within a certain amount of days (180?).
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Oct 22, 2016 14:02:59 GMT
Myshelly is correct, there SHOULD be a limit. Here is one I found, I'll look at our work to see if I can find out what ours is.
"5. BALANCING YOUR TERMINAL DAILY Credit card terminal balancing should be done on a daily basis. You must compare the amount and number of sales slips to the total number provided by the terminal audit trail. In addition, you should then balance your audit trail against the host total. Failure to follow these balancing procedures may result in lost sales. Refer to your terminal Reference Guide for detailed instructions."
If a merchant doesn't process timely, they could lose the right to collect.
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Deleted
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Jun 2, 2024 8:22:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2016 14:03:10 GMT
Yep, lots of bad practices going on here from the farm to the individual purchasers.
>>Three, you should have noticed last year that you weren't charged.<< Many people will "watch" to see if it ever clears and then say "Yay me!" I used to work for a man that used one credit card for all his purchases to earn mileage points. He said at least once a year, a large Walmart purchase (they bought their groceries there, family of 5) would never hit his card. After a year, he "cleared" it in his log.
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scrappinghappy
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Post by scrappinghappy on Oct 22, 2016 14:12:26 GMT
Where were all the, or even one, honest people/person who called the pumpkin patch and alerted them that the charge hadn't gone through? if someone did alert them why didn't they look into it then? And if someone did, why aren't they coming forward now to say so as if that were the case, the pumpkin patch knew about it back then and shouldn't be charging now.
As a small business owner how on earth did they miss this? You can't even balance your cash register Income against your bank deposits? you deserve to lose the money.
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Post by txdancermom on Oct 22, 2016 14:28:47 GMT
someone should have reconciled the accounts long before - there are too many places along the way that someone should have noticed something. I would think that there is something that will prevent them from coming back over a year later and debiting the money from individuals accounts.
I reconcile our bank accounts monthly - and from time to time there are charges that don't clear, I will keep them open for about 6-9 months, then remove the charge from the balance, but leave a note. I have never had any of these charges come back and be debited from our accounts.
Banks and businesses should be reconciling their accounts on a regular basis - banks have to do it daily I believe. to not notice for a year is bad accounting.
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Post by mzza111 on Oct 22, 2016 14:55:14 GMT
I'm sorry but whining about overdraft fees is ridiculous. Whether debit card or writing a check, a person with a brain would deduct the payment from their balance. Hence, the money is gone and your balance reflects that.
If these people balanced their checking account they would have noticed the transaction never posted and would not have incurred any overdraft fees.
Anyone who does not regularly balance their checking account TO THE PENNY will never get any sympathy from me.
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mimima
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Post by mimima on Oct 22, 2016 15:01:48 GMT
I would have noticed as I do reconcile monthly. This is why I carry things forever because they may be put through. I get angst.
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Deleted
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Jun 2, 2024 8:22:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2016 15:08:43 GMT
I am also someone who reconciles their bank account monthly and would have definitely noticed a charge not coming through, I might have gave it another month because I have had transactions for whatever reason take longer than I think they should, but after the 2nd month of the charge not showing, I would have called the merchant.
Sounds like some people were hoping to get something for free or they don't watch their bank accounts very closely.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Oct 22, 2016 15:10:42 GMT
I'm sorry but whining about overdraft fees is ridiculous. Whether debit card or writing a check, a person with a brain would deduct the payment from their balance. Hence, the money is gone and your balance reflects that. If these people balanced their checking account they would have noticed the transaction never posted and would not have incurred any overdraft fees. Anyone who does not regularly balance their checking account TO THE PENNY will never get any sympathy from me. You would be surprised by just how many people NEVER reconcile their checking accounts. They figure as long as they check their balance at an ATM or on the computer or phone and there's money showing in there, they're good. Seriously. I have no sympathy for those people when their account gets screwed up since one of my jobs in a past life was to sort out those kinds of preventable messes. I have no sympathy for the business owner either, especially a small business. DH and I are self employed and we know a lot of other self employed people. It would be unusual for anyone we know to not be aware of hundreds of missing deposits amounting to thousands of dollars. A small business in particular would feel that pinch pretty quickly. The company DH and I both use for payment processing has automatic batching. If we process transactions and don't manually process the batch, it automatically does it for us at midnight that night and resets for the next day. There have been times when I have been working at retreats and don't get back to my hotel room until 1:00 am or later and I still always check to make sure that any transactions I did that day actually batched through.
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Post by walkerdill on Oct 22, 2016 15:17:06 GMT
Checks only have a 1 year period to be used so I would think the same as debits\credits.
What's to stop them from saying 6 years down the road that debits didn't go through. There should be an expiration to be able to collect.
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Post by Spongemom Scrappants on Oct 22, 2016 15:18:07 GMT
From 2015?
That trumps all other considerations for me. It's been far too long. The business should have just accepted their loss.
The business should also take a course in proper business management.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Oct 22, 2016 15:30:41 GMT
Any charges to my checking account are tracked and I would have noticed, but I use a cc 99.9% of the time. I check charges every few days- a week at the most to see if they are legitimate allocate them into the appropriate budget category. As I use my cc for everything, there's a lot of transactions. I seriously doubt I'd notice the pumpkin patch failed to charge me - but I sure would notice a new charge from a business I didn't use in over a year. I don't know if I'd immediately cancel the card- more likely I would contest until I figured it out, but if I would have - especially if I feared it'd be compromised, I'd be annoyed as hell. I have a ton of auto charges.
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Kerri W
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Post by Kerri W on Oct 22, 2016 15:34:03 GMT
I've been a small business owner. How in the world did the pumpkin patch do their taxes with this big of an error not accounted for?
I think the pumpkin patch should eat the lost transactions. I can guarantee you if I were one of those customers who was in *any way* inconvenienced by their mistake, then horrible handling of said mistake by not telling people until after the fact, I would be the best advertisement for them that I could be and it would not be positive. I would not take to Facebook, etc but every time abc pumpkin patch came up in conversation, I would share my opinion. The bad press they are getting right now is not worth trying to recoup those transactions a year later.
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momto4kiddos
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Jun 26, 2014 11:45:15 GMT
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Post by momto4kiddos on Oct 22, 2016 15:38:31 GMT
And the business is not really helping themselves either. Just saying they were sorry for the inconvenience but they are a small business. The owner did eventually tell people who were negatively affected to call her directly so maybe she is working on something. It's a mess for sure! We actually went there last year but dh always likes to pay for everything with cash. Ugh, what a mess that sounds like! So this small business is just now noticing a problem from 2015 and it's causing problems for a lot of people... My concern for them would be their reputation coming out the other side of it. From a customer standpoint - i'd be annoyed if my account was overdrawn because of it. I myself keep a cushion in my account because I do not keep track of things that well. I do balance my account every month or so, but honestly sometimes I write thing in from the statement. I wouldn't necessarily remember every purchase. From a small business standpoint - how the heck does that happen? I keep track of our business account and make sure I know what is going on there. And we've had contractors not pay or not pay in a timely manner...sometimes you have to weigh your options on whether it's worth pursuing. I'm not sure how much the amount of money was, but I wonder since they didn't miss it whether it's worth all the negativity going on right now.
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Post by cyndijane on Oct 22, 2016 15:50:59 GMT
From 2015? That trumps all other considerations for me. It's been far too long. The business should have just accepted their loss. The business should also take a course in proper business management. Agreed. What the "small business" may have gained in the short term (the money collected) they will have lost in the long run. None of those customers will be back- and they'll be telling their friends to go somewhere else, too. They should have taken the loss and learned to take care of their business in a more timely manner. If you do seasonal business, make sure you're staffed with the right people. A good bookkeeper is worth their weight in gold.
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Post by underwatermama on Oct 22, 2016 16:11:40 GMT
I'm impressed that people are still using the same card as last year. I think that was 3 credit card numbers ago for me.
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Post by mom on Oct 22, 2016 16:23:53 GMT
What a nightmare - for everyone involved. Things like this are why small businesses have a hard time staying in business. The negative PR from this instance alone is enough to drown them.
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MsKnit
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Post by MsKnit on Oct 22, 2016 16:29:41 GMT
I would have noticed as I do reconcile monthly. This is why I carry things forever because they may be put through. I get angst. I have an item that has never came through. It's been over 2 years and I think I know why. However, I still keep that amount as deducted from the balance, because weird things happen.
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Post by cannes on Oct 22, 2016 16:39:26 GMT
I think the business should have just let it go. It was their mistake initially, they failed to notice it when they closed the books for not only that month, but that year. As a small business owner, I'd have been sick about it, but would have let it go. The bad press/ill will they have generated as a result of this would have made writing off the amount worth it.
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Post by scrapaddict702 on Oct 22, 2016 16:45:10 GMT
I went to an indoor play place and kept a register of the charge (it was pending on my account immediately after the card swipe). We had gone a few times that month but I noticed at one point that my bank balance was continually off by one of the visits. I left it as a charge on my account for about 3 months (just in case they figured out the discrepancy and pushed the charge through) before just deleting it to make my bank balance again. I've never seen a random charge to make up for it down the line...it's been 2 or 3 years now. At the time, we only had 1 kid we paid for (so it was just $10) and it's been a while since that's been the case (we have 3 we have to pay for now).
It wasn't a seasonal business, though...had I cared enough to do it, I could have easily called and said 'hey, one of the charges for a visit I made were pending on my account and now they aren't...how would you like me to handle this?' For a pop up business, how the hell are you supposed to do that? If the charge isn't there, after a few months, I would remove it and consider it a loss on their end because there is no way to contact them and inform them of the mishap. A year later, I would definitely NOT expect there to be a charge and would figure the business wrote it off as a loss because it was their error.
Then again, I've gotten 30-40 page billing statements from my pediatrician's office with bills from every visit we've ever had about 18 months after my first was born. Apparently, they didn't have a good billing department and were getting caught up...and in the 30-40 pages, they actually owed us over $40 back. When I asked for them to send a check as a refund or to apply it to my other child's account where I had to pay $10 co-pays more frequently at the time, they said they couldn't do that and about a year later, I got a bill for $10 in the mail for child with the credit and because of the time it had been since I owed anything, they had deleted the credit...they had to do some digging to find it, to fix it and then told me that whoever said they couldn't refund it and couldn't apply it to another child's account was wrong on both counts...they ended up applying the appropriate credit and then sending me a check for the remainder that they owed me. In this case, there is a contract you sign when you go into the office stating that anything they bill you that insurance doesn't pay for, you have to pay, so they have that in writing to use against you.
I also have a savings account that always has $5 in it (I don't use it all that often but I keep it open JUST in case I want to use it to earmark money for a trip or something away from our other accounts, but in order to keep it active for free, I have to have an automatic transfer every month...there used to be a fee for more than 3 transfers OUT of the account each month, but anything under that was free and the charge was automatically reversed) . One month, the service fee wasn't reversed immediately like it had always been in the past. I called, they issued the refund and the automatic refund processed a few days later. I've never taken the $5 out in case they ever reconcile the accounts and realize they shouldn't have given me that $5 (that's been about 8 years now).
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garcia5050
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Post by garcia5050 on Oct 22, 2016 16:47:31 GMT
shoot, I'm in banking and I'm not sure what is appropriate in this case. A consumer can dispute charges that have been posted within 60 days, but does this mean that the business should be expected to apply charges within the same 60 days? If a consumer was to dispute the charge, would it automatically be reversed? I would think so, as a consumer has better protections than a business.
Regardless of banking regulations, the business made a terrible choice. They would have fared better by taking the loss.
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