flute4peace
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Jul 3, 2014 14:38:35 GMT
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Post by flute4peace on Nov 22, 2016 2:08:15 GMT
While reading one of the threads this evening, something reached out and smacked me in the face.
I see so many referring to "conservatives" and "liberals" with distain - sometimes even venom. It's almost like both sides hate each other because they're supposed to.
How is this not a form of discrimination/distain? If we behaved this way toward any other demographic, it wouldn't be tolerated.
Just something to think about.
ETA: I initially said discrimination, then changed/added distain due to some comments, but when I think more about it, I feel it is more discrimination. People are making it personal. Don't we say religious discrimination? Same thing. |
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flute4peace
Drama Llama
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Jul 3, 2014 14:38:35 GMT
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Post by flute4peace on Nov 22, 2016 2:10:39 GMT
And to derail my own thread. I couldn't think of the word I wanted & expressed frustration.
12 yo: What's wrong? Me: Oh I can't think of the word I want 12: Can I help? Me: Possibly. How do you describe when one person treats another poorly because of their race or religion? 12: Discrimination? Me: YES! Thank you!
12: And that's why I'm in scholar's bowl.... |
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Post by mlynn on Nov 22, 2016 2:15:56 GMT
But there are demographics that it considered OK to treat this way.
Whites...particularly men
Obese people
to name a couple. It just doesn't get the big response.
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Post by gmcwife1 on Nov 22, 2016 2:21:38 GMT
But there are demographics that it considered OK to treat this way. Whites...particularly men Obese people to name a couple. It just doesn't get the big response. also uneducated |
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Post by melanell on Nov 22, 2016 2:35:36 GMT
This has been bothering me right along.  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2016 2:40:41 GMT
Discrimination is making fun of or marginalizing or harming people based on INHERENT attributes:
race
gender
sexual orientation
etc.
OPINIONS are open to discrimination. Opinions/beliefs are something we CHOOSE - hopefully after thoughtful consideration.
People's inherent attributes should NEVER be belittled.
People's OPINIONS are open to discrimination.
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on Nov 22, 2016 2:41:45 GMT
Perhaps the word you are looking for is disdain not discrimination.
dis·crim·i·na·tion
dəˌskriməˈnāSH(ə)n/
noun
1.
the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.
dis·dain
disˈdān/Submit
noun
1.
the feeling that someone or something is unworthy of one's consideration or respect; contempt.
I think that discrimination is usually based on something one can't really change, race, sexual identity, age, or religion. Disdain is based on a judgement, in this case based on political beliefs.
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on Nov 22, 2016 2:42:22 GMT
Discrimination is making fun of or marginalizing or harming people based on INHERENT attributes: race gender sexual orientation etc. OPINIONS are open to discrimination. Opinions/beliefs are something we CHOOSE - hopefully after thoughtful consideration. People's inherent attributes should NEVER be belittled. People's OPINIONS are open to discrimination. @zingermack beat me too it. |
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flute4peace
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Jul 3, 2014 14:38:35 GMT
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Post by flute4peace on Nov 22, 2016 2:47:59 GMT
Perhaps the word you are looking for is disdain not discrimination. dis·crim·i·na·tion dəˌskriməˈnāSH(ə)n/ noun 1. the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex. dis·dain disˈdān/Submit noun 1. the feeling that someone or something is unworthy of one's consideration or respect; contempt. I think that discrimination is usually based on something one can't really change, race, sexual identity, age, or religion. Disdain is based on a judgement, in this case based on political beliefs. Yea that's probably a better word.
Still, is it really ok to belittle someone due to their political views? I've never followed politics before this election, so it's a concept I don't understand. To me, people are just people - some believe one way, some believe the other, but there's way more to a person than a D or an R.
I hope that makes more sense.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2016 2:53:53 GMT
It is not OK to belittle people. It is OK to belittle beliefs (yours, mine, anyones).
Beliefs are just that and should be scrutinized, taken out, shaken up, turned over, and shored up by evidence. If they can't stand up to the scrutiny, they should be discarded. That is how humanity progresses from the times when we believed in stupid ideas like sacrificing someone to appease the angry god(s), etc.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2016 2:58:22 GMT
But there are demographics that it considered OK to treat this way. Whites...particularly men Obese people to name a couple. It just doesn't get the big response. I can completely agree with you on obese people. And lots of other aspects of appearance. The whites and particularly men? Nope, just can't get on board. When one is used to privilege, other groups gaining some equality can feel like oppression at first. But it's not. Feelings aren't facts. It can be hard to work through the discomfort of that, but it's possible. Save |
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flute4peace
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Post by flute4peace on Nov 22, 2016 2:59:40 GMT
It is not OK to belittle people. It is OK to belittle beliefs (yours, mine, anyones). Beliefs are just that and should be scrutinized, taken out, shaken up, turned over, and shored up by evidence. If they can't stand up to the scrutiny, they should be discarded. That is how humanity progresses from the times when we believed in stupid ideas like sacrificing someone to appease the angry god(s), etc. I absolutely disagree.
To me there's a BIG difference between a healthy, respectful discussion about beliefs (political, religious, crunchy vs creamy, whatever), and belittling those beliefs. Just because I personally don't agree with it, doesn't mean it's wrong. And the person who believes it is as much a human being as I am.
When you leave a young child at preschool/daycare and they cry & cry because Mommy's going away, YOU know you're coming back, but the child questions if you are and is frightened. Just because you know the child's belief is inaccurate, doesn't mean it's not real to him.
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Post by lisae on Nov 22, 2016 3:02:05 GMT
I don't like the labels because individuals have an opinion formed of what a liberal or a conservative is. While I would fall far more on the liberal side than conservative, there are things I agree with and things I don't. I'm not as liberal as Bernie Sanders, for example. Free college is not sustainable in our culture and I'm not sure it is the right thing to do anyway. I believe we need to combine our efforts on the environment with what is politically savvy as well. For example, imagine if we didn't need the Middle EAst oil because we found cleaner ways to generate our energy. That's a win for the environment but also a potential win for us in reduced cost on military spending, less likely to put people in harms way and just staying out of a lot of conflicts we have no business in. It wouldn't erase our security interest but it would change them. And clean energy often creates higher paying jobs. I am aware though that some of the clean energy measures begun during the Obama administration have been failures.
I'm more liberal in my social policy views but not so much that I want to repeal the 2nd amendment. We can have responsible gun ownership.
Some people view a liberal as anyone who wants to create any kind of gun restriction and some people see a liberal as someone who wants to do away with guns altogether.
The terms aren't absolute; they are based on what we believe about a liberal or a conservative. Judging someone by what you believe they are rather than what you come to know them to be is dangerous.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2016 3:06:03 GMT
It is not OK to belittle people. It is OK to belittle beliefs (yours, mine, anyones). Beliefs are just that and should be scrutinized, taken out, shaken up, turned over, and shored up by evidence. If they can't stand up to the scrutiny, they should be discarded. That is how humanity progresses from the times when we believed in stupid ideas like sacrificing someone to appease the angry god(s), etc. I absolutely disagree.
To me there's a BIG difference between a healthy, respectful discussion about beliefs (political, religious, crunchy vs creamy, whatever), and belittling those beliefs. Just because I personally don't agree with it, doesn't mean it's wrong. And the person who believes it is as much a human being as I am.
When you leave a young child at preschool/daycare and they cry & cry because Mommy's going away, YOU know you're coming back, but the child questions if you are and is frightened. Just because you know the child's belief is inaccurate, doesn't mean it's not real to him.
You are perfectly free to disagree with (i.e. discriminate against) my beliefs. See how that works? That's because BELIEFS (yours or mine) are open to discrimination, examination and even ridicule sometimes (not w/a child as in your example, but as in satire, snark, etc). If we don't challenge beliefs we don't progress and we'd still be sacrificing people to appease god(s). |
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flute4peace
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Jul 3, 2014 14:38:35 GMT
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Post by flute4peace on Nov 22, 2016 3:19:10 GMT
I absolutely disagree.
To me there's a BIG difference between a healthy, respectful discussion about beliefs (political, religious, crunchy vs creamy, whatever), and belittling those beliefs. Just because I personally don't agree with it, doesn't mean it's wrong. And the person who believes it is as much a human being as I am.
When you leave a young child at preschool/daycare and they cry & cry because Mommy's going away, YOU know you're coming back, but the child questions if you are and is frightened. Just because you know the child's belief is inaccurate, doesn't mean it's not real to him.
You are perfectly free to disagree with (i.e. discriminate) against my beliefs. See how that works? As I said BELIEFS are open to discrimination, examination and even ridicule. If we don't challenge beliefs we don't progress and we'd still be sacrificing people to appease god(s). I'm not familiar with your username, so I don't really know your posting history, so forgive me if I'm way off base here. But:
I happily disagree with your belief that opinions are fair game to discriminate against.
That being said, I would never discriminate against your belief/you.
For me, politics is very far down on my give-a-crap list in terms of getting along with my friends. I also don't identify with either party. Perhaps that gives me the perspective of an outsider looking in, I don't know.
Honestly I didn't start this thread to play a game of semantics. I had a thought that I felt might help all of us be able to look past the politics and see each other for the humans that we are. I'm so tired of the enemy vs the enemy vs the enemy vs the enemy and on and on. I thought that we wanted to move more toward peace. Apparently I thought wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2016 3:23:14 GMT
It's far from semantics. It is absolutely crucial to civil society that we learn to criticize each other's beliefs w/o criticizing the individual holding the belief. Yes, some beliefs are closely held. That doesn't mean they should get special dispensation from scrutiny. If anything, they should be scrutinized the more deeply. It's having stupid beliefs that allowed us to think it's ok for one person to own the body/family of another person. That was a deeply held belief justified in a thousand different ways by the people who held it. We went to war over it. We're still fighting some of the underlying beliefs that supported it. So, it is an important discussion.
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flute4peace
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Post by flute4peace on Nov 22, 2016 3:41:16 GMT
It's far from semantics. It is absolutely crucial to civil society that we learn to criticize each other's beliefs w/o criticizing the individual holding the belief. Yes, some beliefs are closely held. That doesn't mean they should get special dispensation from scrutiny. If anything, they should be scrutinized the more deeply. It's having stupid beliefs that allowed us to think it's ok for one person to own the body/family of another person. That was a deeply held belief justified in a thousand different ways by the people who held it. We went to war over it. We're still fighting some of the underlying beliefs that supported it. So, it is an important discussion. That's EXACTLY my point. And that's why I started the thread. Many times the political discussions dissolve into "well the conservatives..." and "well the liberals...".
Maybe the whole "discrimination" route was the wrong analogy. Maybe I should have said that the "liberal vs conservative" reminds me of the "bloods vs crips". I just don't understand what all the animosity is about. Don't we all want what's best for our nation? Why does it have to be "my way or the highway"?
My best friend voted for the candidate I did not vote for. She had passionate reasons for her choice, I had passionate reasons for mine (which had nothing to do with party affiliation, just to be clear). We're no less best friends today than we were a year ago when all this mess started. Her political affiliation/beliefs are different from mine, but they don't affect our friendship.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2016 3:52:36 GMT
Maybe the whole "discrimination" route was the wrong analogy. Maybe I should have said that the "liberal vs conservative" reminds me of the "bloods vs crips". I just don't understand what all the animosity is about. Don't we all want what's best for our nation? Why does it have to be "my way or the highway"? In my opinion, the biggest contributor to this kind of us vs. them and my way or the highway thing is partisan media and pundits. When that's where people are getting the majority of their "news" it alters their thinking and beliefs. The thing is, those pundits and the sites like infowars, Breitbart, and their crazy "liberal" counterparts aren't doing this out of strongly held convictions. They're people who are solely in it for the money and the power that their drama and histronics and conspiracy theories bring them. I think the next biggest or even equal problem is the "Establishment" in both political parties. Power corrupts and both sides are hell bent on having all the power. It's time to clean house in the main/home offices of both major parties. The only chance I think we-all of us regular people-have is watching closely, seeking out the *facts* and getting involved by paying attention and contacting our elected reps. That's how you get them to be accountable, and they've scooted by because we (general American public we) have gotten lazy and apathetic. I really think we're at a crossroads here. Either we get involved and work hard to turn this around, or we're headed straight for a world right out of the 1930s and 40s where facism runs rampant and entire countries are brought to their knees and have to spend decades trying to rebuild and recover. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2016 3:55:35 GMT
But I can criticize "a liberal" because that's shorthand for "a liberal mindset". I.e. Opinions. I would still never call the person stupid. But I might call the ideas stupid and give the reasons why I think so.
But lots of people misjudge the criticism of the ideas w the criticism of the person. I need to be able to take criticism of my ideas w/o saying that I personally am being discriminated against. That's what too many on the boards don't get. Your or my ideas are not above discrimination.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2016 4:00:12 GMT
But lots of people misjudge the criticism of the ideas w the criticism of the person. I need to be able to take criticism of my ideas w/o saying that I personally am being discriminated against. That's what too many on the boards don't get. Your or my ideas are not above discrimination. Sweet, fancy Moses, YES! This exactly. People take challenge or criticism of their beliefs so damned personally and that's when it all goes rolling downhill. |
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flute4peace
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Post by flute4peace on Nov 22, 2016 4:04:34 GMT
But I can criticize "a liberal" because that's shorthand for "a liberal mindset". I.e. Opinions. I would still never call the person stupid. But I might call the ideas stupid and give the reasons why I think so. But lots of people misjudge the criticism of the ideas w the criticism of the person. I need to be able to take criticism of my ideas w/o saying that I personally am being discriminated against. That's what too many on the boards don't get. Your or my ideas are not above discrimination. So you feel a blanket statement about "this happened because the conservatives did this" or "well of course the liberals would say that", are ok? I don't want to use specific quotes because I don't want anyone to feel picked on, but it's those blanket assumptions and statements that I'm talking about with my O/P. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2016 4:32:38 GMT
But I can criticize "a liberal" because that's shorthand for "a liberal mindset". I.e. Opinions. I would still never call the person stupid. But I might call the ideas stupid and give the reasons why I think so. But lots of people misjudge the criticism of the ideas w the criticism of the person. I need to be able to take criticism of my ideas w/o saying that I personally am being discriminated against. That's what too many on the boards don't get. Your or my ideas are not above discrimination. So you feel a blanket statement about "this happened because the conservatives did this" or "well of course the liberals would say that", are ok? I don't want to use specific quotes because I don't want anyone to feel picked on, but it's those blanket assumptions and statements that I'm talking about with my O/P. I generally think blanket statements are almost always wrong (see what I did there?) BUT! A liberal is a person who CHOOSES liberal ideas. A conservative is a person who CHOOSES conservative ideas. So, since these are choices, I don't have any issues w/people criticizing a "liberal" or a "conservative" in the same way I have people criticizing "a dyke" or "a wop". The former can be changed at any time by the person holding the idea. The latter is disgusting as something to criticize in that the person was born into a set of DNA and can't and shouldn't need to change that to not be discriminated against. |
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on Nov 22, 2016 4:53:56 GMT
But I can criticize "a liberal" because that's shorthand for "a liberal mindset". I.e. Opinions. I would still never call the person stupid. But I might call the ideas stupid and give the reasons why I think so. But lots of people misjudge the criticism of the ideas w the criticism of the person. I need to be able to take criticism of my ideas w/o saying that I personally am being discriminated against. That's what too many on the boards don't get. Your or my ideas are not above discrimination. So you feel a blanket statement about "this happened because the conservatives did this" or "well of course the liberals would say that", are ok? I don't want to use specific quotes because I don't want anyone to feel picked on, but it's those blanket assumptions and statements that I'm talking about with my O/P. The words liberal and conservative can be used two different ways. You can refer to "The Conservatives" or "The Liberals" referencing the political parties and their leaders. Or you can be referring to people with a liberal mindset or conservative mindset. I think it can be easy to take something personally when the poster is actually referring to what the "party leadership" did and not the individuals. Overall I agree that ideas can be and should be at times criticized. If we do not scrutinize sincerely held beliefs, our own and yes those of others we do not evolve as a society. What if we never questioned slavery, or rights of women, we can go back in history and see tons of examples. The problem is that we, and I include myself there, find it difficult to have those sincerely held beliefs questioned. It is hard. Wether we are questioning ourselves or someone else is questioning us, it is hard not to take it personally, and just bloody hard to hear. Some beliefs are so strongly held that they define the person. It can be impossible to differentiate the person from the belief. |
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Post by leftturnonly on Nov 22, 2016 5:03:48 GMT
I generally think blanket statements are almost always wrong (see what I did there?) BUT! A liberal is a person who CHOOSES liberal ideas. A conservative is a person who CHOOSES conservative ideas. So, since these are choices, I don't have any issues w/people criticizing a "liberal" or a "conservative" in the same way I have people criticizing "a dyke" or "a wop". The former can be changed at any time by the person holding the idea. The latter is disgusting as something to criticize in that the person was born into a set of DNA and can't and shouldn't need to change that to not be discriminated against. I am a liberal conservative by my very nature. There was no choice in that. I've been remarkably consistent throughout my life and have been told that many times. I have supported Democrats, Independents and Republicans based on what I believed they would actually do that would align best with my ideals. It's naive to believe you can criticize people's ideals and think that you aren't criticizing them as well. (I learned that the hard way!) |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2016 5:06:07 GMT
I am a liberal conservative by my very nature. There was no choice in that. I've been remarkably consistent throughout my life and have been told that many times. I have supported Democrats, Independents and Republicans based on what I believed they would actually do that would align best with my ideals. It's naive to believe you can criticize people's ideals and think that you aren't criticizing them as well. (I learned that the hard way!) We have to learn to separate the two. Our ideas are always open to criticism. Some valid. Some not. Just cuz it's hard to do something doesn't mean it's not worth doing. |
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Post by leftturnonly on Nov 22, 2016 5:14:46 GMT
I am a liberal conservative by my very nature. There was no choice in that. I've been remarkably consistent throughout my life and have been told that many times. I have supported Democrats, Independents and Republicans based on what I believed they would actually do that would align best with my ideals. It's naive to believe you can criticize people's ideals and think that you aren't criticizing them as well. (I learned that the hard way!) We have to learn to separate the two. Our ideas are always open to criticism. Some valid. Some not. Just cuz it's hard to do something doesn't mean it's not worth doing. Ideas and ideals are not always interchangeable. The biggest problem in this election has been selective hearing. Criticism has been directed outward and accountability for one's own actions has been at a low. Introspection and maturation of values are good things. |
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Post by gmcwife1 on Nov 22, 2016 6:19:56 GMT
You are perfectly free to disagree with (i.e. discriminate) against my beliefs. See how that works? As I said BELIEFS are open to discrimination, examination and even ridicule. If we don't challenge beliefs we don't progress and we'd still be sacrificing people to appease god(s). I'm not familiar with your username, so I don't really know your posting history, so forgive me if I'm way off base here. But:
I happily disagree with your belief that opinions are fair game to discriminate against.
That being said, I would never discriminate against your belief/you.
For me, politics is very far down on my give-a-crap list in terms of getting along with my friends. I also don't identify with either party. Perhaps that gives me the perspective of an outsider looking in, I don't know.
Honestly I didn't start this thread to play a game of semantics. I had a thought that I felt might help all of us be able to look past the politics and see each other for the humans that we are. I'm so tired of the enemy vs the enemy vs the enemy vs the enemy and on and on. I thought that we wanted to move more toward peace. Apparently I thought wrong.
I get the feeling that you are ok with people having opinions that are different then your opinion. You feel good about your opinion, but you are also willing to listen and learn from others opinions. You don't have to understand or agree with others to listen. There are some other people that feel their opinion is right and if they don't agree with your opinion they feel the need to challenge it. They seem to think you need to prove yourself to them. I'm more like how I feel you might be. I like listening and learning whether I agree or not. I rarely learn anything from people that constantly challenge. It's not a fun discussion and I tend to not want to bother with it. Good conversations should have give and take. Not constant challenge or demands. |
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Post by mlynn on Nov 22, 2016 8:07:15 GMT
Another demographic has occurred to me....
Christians. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2016 11:35:15 GMT
It is not OK to belittle people. It is OK to belittle beliefs (yours, mine, anyones). Beliefs are just that and should be scrutinized, taken out, shaken up, turned over, and shored up by evidence. If they can't stand up to the scrutiny, they should be discarded. That is how humanity progresses from the times when we believed in stupid ideas like sacrificing someone to appease the angry god(s), etc. Here's my issue...one shared by many. Why are someone's beliefs better or more right than mine? If we all believed in the same things the world would be so boring? Scrutinize someone's beliefs, fine, belittle them , not fine. There will never be a time when everyone agrees or believes in the same thing. The trick here is to understand that and find a way to discuss not belittle those diffrences. I don't agree with the belittling but can get behind the discussion, I might not agree but can listen and then respond with my point or belief. This is no way an attack against you or your thoughts just an opioin from one. |
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on Nov 22, 2016 12:01:09 GMT
It is not OK to belittle people. It is OK to belittle beliefs (yours, mine, anyones). Beliefs are just that and should be scrutinized, taken out, shaken up, turned over, and shored up by evidence. If they can't stand up to the scrutiny, they should be discarded. That is how humanity progresses from the times when we believed in stupid ideas like sacrificing someone to appease the angry god(s), etc. Here's my issue...one shared by many. Why are someone's beliefs better or more right than mine? If we all believed in the same things the world would be so boring? Scrutinize someone's beliefs, fine, belittle them , not fine. There will never be a time when everyone agrees or believes in the same thing. The trick here is to understand that and find a way to discuss not belittle those diffrences. I don't agree with the belittling but can get behind the discussion, I might not agree but can listen and then respond with my point or belief. This is no way an attack against you or your thoughts just an opioin from one. Is there nothing that you think is so deeply and morally wrong that you can say. This is the line I draw. If you believe XYZ then you have crossed that line and I can not find any common ground with you? There are things that are morally reprehensible to me. Pedophilia comes to mind. Could you listen to someone defend a pedophile and not make a moral judgement about them? Not belittle their beliefs? There are many more issues that fall in the big grey area, where we should all be more respectful of each others beliefs, than there are area's that are morally reprehensible. But it is worth remembering that those things that we hold close and cling on to tightly might be the things that we most need to take out and have a good hard look at. |
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