Olan
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Post by Olan on Jul 16, 2017 0:36:00 GMT
On a societal level, this public spectacle of forgiveness is complete and utter bullshit. But white people eat it up. Our forgiveness reassures them that Black people still know their place in this country; it eases their minds, reassures them that nothing has to change, that they don’t have to upset their carefully crafted, artfully curated, violently maintained societal advantages. Black forgiveness sends the message that white people are still on top.
On a personal level, we are told that forgiveness is a tool for healing—that it will help us through our pain. That is a confusing message to me. Forgiveness, to me, means recognizing that the pain has dissipated. I can’t recognize that when the wound is still fresh, and being reopened all the time.
We are told that forgiveness will help us with our anger, that it will keep our rage from destroying us. This doesn’t make sense to me either. My anger fuels me. Almost every positive change I’ve made in my life has been because something bothered me enough to want to do something about it. If I forgave the people and situations that outraged me, I am not sure I’d be motivated enough to change it. Change often means destroying the old, and I wouldn’t destroy something I found acceptable.
We are told that forgiveness allows us to move forward. This, too, is not true. One of the few constants is that life goes on, regardless of what tragedies we face. Time is what allows us to move forward—indeed, it means that moving forward is something we can’t avoid. Forgiveness is not required for progress.
We are told that forgiveness is personal. If the act of forgiveness is personal, why does it need to be shared publicly? People ask for forgiveness. They demand forgiveness. If forgiveness is personal, something I should do for myself, then you don’t need it and you don’t get to ask for it. That you are seeking it tells me that it’s a tool for you, not me.
We are told that forgiveness and anger aren’t mutually exclusive, that we can be angry and still forgive someone. I don’t know what definition of “forgiveness” people are using for that one, but for me, anger is something that demands change, while forgiveness means accepting things as they are. Forgiveness is complacency. I cannot be outraged by you and forgiving of you at the same time. Either I’m angry and we’re going to work on improving the situation or I’ve decided to accept your bullshit. It’s not both. It’s never both.
Forgiveness requires that I lie to myself; I choose to live my truth. It demands I rot inside; I opt to continue my growth. It expects me to swallow my anger and suppress my pain; I express my rage and refine my voice. It requires that I choke on my discomfort to appease you; I allow you to choke on your discomfort and exit, unappeased.
I do not forgive—and please, if I wrong you, I don’t want you to forgive me either. I want nothing to do with a tool designed to quiet the mistreated, to manipulate them, to deny them humanity.
I do not seek your complacency. I do not want you to tell me shit is fine when it isn’t. I do not want you to hide yourself, lie to yourself, deny yourself. I do not want you to cull your emotions, quell your anger, or gut your pain to meet forgiveness’ demands. I do not want to keep you still, silent, and part of the status quo.
I want us to be free.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jul 16, 2017 0:36:28 GMT
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Post by bothmykidsrbrats on Jul 16, 2017 1:32:57 GMT
The author would benefit from therapy..... Lots and lots of therapy.
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Post by mollycoddle on Jul 16, 2017 1:37:17 GMT
I don't understand what you DO want. What are you looking for?
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flute4peace
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Post by flute4peace on Jul 16, 2017 2:00:17 GMT
Perhaps the definition below can help answer some of your questions. (Found by googling what is forgiveness) What Is Forgiveness? Psychologists generally define forgiveness as a conscious, deliberate decision to release feelings of resentment or vengeance toward a person or group who has harmed you, regardless of whether they actually deserve your forgiveness. Just as important as defining what forgiveness is, though, is understanding what forgiveness is not. Experts who study or teach forgiveness make clear that when you forgive, you do not gloss over or deny the seriousness of an offense against you. Forgiveness does not mean forgetting, nor does it mean condoning or excusing offenses. Though forgiveness can help repair a damaged relationship, it doesn’t obligate you to reconcile with the person who harmed you, or release them from legal accountability. Instead, forgiveness brings the forgiver peace of mind and frees him or her from corrosive anger. While there is some debate over whether true forgiveness requires positive feelings toward the offender, experts agree that it at least involves letting go of deeply held negative feelings. In that way, it empowers you to recognize the pain you suffered without letting that pain define you, enabling you to heal and move on with your life. Source: greatergood.berkeley.edu/forgiveness/definitionYou say you want to be free. Frankly, it's not the world, but your own heart that is preventing it. As I said before, I wish you well. Whether you want to believe it or not. |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jul 16, 2017 11:19:13 GMT
Perhaps the definition below can help answer some of your questions. (Found by googling what is forgiveness) What Is Forgiveness? Psychologists generally define forgiveness as a conscious, deliberate decision to release feelings of resentment or vengeance toward a person or group who has harmed you, regardless of whether they actually deserve your forgiveness. Just as important as defining what forgiveness is, though, is understanding what forgiveness is not. Experts who study or teach forgiveness make clear that when you forgive, you do not gloss over or deny the seriousness of an offense against you. Forgiveness does not mean forgetting, nor does it mean condoning or excusing offenses. Though forgiveness can help repair a damaged relationship, it doesn’t obligate you to reconcile with the person who harmed you, or release them from legal accountability. Instead, forgiveness brings the forgiver peace of mind and frees him or her from corrosive anger. While there is some debate over whether true forgiveness requires positive feelings toward the offender, experts agree that it at least involves letting go of deeply held negative feelings. In that way, it empowers you to recognize the pain you suffered without letting that pain define you, enabling you to heal and move on with your life. Source: greatergood.berkeley.edu/forgiveness/definitionYou say you want to be free. Frankly, it's not the world, but your own heart that is preventing it. As I said before, I wish you well. Whether you want to believe it or not. Way to shift blame you really should be ashamed but you aren't. To treat people this way and then act like something is wrong with them based on their response to your mistreatment. I guess that's what abusive people do though. Pain doesn't define me. Just as the author noted anger is fuel. The immense success that black people have experienced in America despite Our mistreatment proves this. I think our ancestors would be pretty proud of the work we've done. Earlier you challenged my volunteer efforts and I in turn asked what you've done lately to make your ancestors proud. I think they would be. You are maintaining the system they created. |
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Post by mollycoddle on Jul 16, 2017 13:01:06 GMT
I tried. Based on your OP, I wanted to know what you want, since you were very clear on what you don't want. My take? You don't want a discussion; you want to lecture. You have every right to be angry, and I guess that if you want to stew about it and let it devour your life, then that is your business.
But you should also understand that the tendency to lecture ad nauseum is also why fewer and fewer people are responding to you. And maybe you don't care. Well, then things are working out perfectly.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jul 16, 2017 13:09:15 GMT
I tried. Based on your OP, I wanted to know what you want, since you were very clear on what you don't want. My take? You don't want a discussion; you want to lecture. You have every right to be angry, and I guess that if you want to stew about it and let it devour your life, then that is your business. But you should also understand that the tendency to lecture ad nauseum is also why fewer and fewer people are responding to you. And maybe you don't care. Well, then things are working out perfectly. You didn't ask me what I wanted did you? You read the article I posted and still came back with your own lecture about forgiveness. I am open to discussing things and answering pointed questions that isn't what is happening in these threads. You are instead forcing forgiveness and this idea that I am bitter and angry down my throat. That isn't a discussion. And can not be described as a lecture either. I post links and hope people will be moved to educate themselves about what's going on and decide if they want to do something about it. It's clear no one does. In a thread discussing the murder of a black college student folks are proclaiming progress. |
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Post by elaine on Jul 16, 2017 13:17:57 GMT
I tried. Based on your OP, I wanted to know what you want, since you were very clear on what you don't want. My take? You don't want a discussion; you want to lecture. You have every right to be angry, and I guess that if you want to stew about it and let it devour your life, then that is your business. But you should also understand that the tendency to lecture ad nauseum is also why fewer and fewer people are responding to you. And maybe you don't care. Well, then things are working out perfectly. I am open to discussing things and answering pointed questions that isn't what is happening in these threads. You are instead forcing forgiveness and this idea that I am bitter and angry down my throat. That isn't a discussion. And can not be described as a lecture either. I post links and hope people will be moved to educate themselves about what's going on and decide if they want to do something about it. It's clear no one does. In a thread discussing the murder of a black college student folks are proclaiming progress. Please go back and read the responses. mollycoddle DID ask you want you wanted. Clearly. flute4peace responded with a definition of forgiveness. If you can't be bothered to read all the responses to your OP and incorrectly jumping on respondents, that also shuts down discussion. |
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Post by mollycoddle on Jul 16, 2017 13:26:01 GMT
I tried. Based on your OP, I wanted to know what you want, since you were very clear on what you don't want. My take? You don't want a discussion; you want to lecture. You have every right to be angry, and I guess that if you want to stew about it and let it devour your life, then that is your business. But you should also understand that the tendency to lecture ad nauseum is also why fewer and fewer people are responding to you. And maybe you don't care. Well, then things are working out perfectly. You didn't ask me what I wanted did you? You read the article I posted and still came back with your own lecture about forgiveness. I am open to discussing things and answering pointed questions that isn't what is happening in these threads. You are instead forcing forgiveness and this idea that I am bitter and angry down my throat. That isn't a discussion. And can not be described as a lecture either. I post links and hope people will be moved to educate themselves about what's going on and decide if they want to do something about it. It's clear no one does. In a thread discussing the murder of a black college student folks are proclaiming progress. Um, I did not mention the word forgiveness. So I am once again not sure what you mean. Do you have me confused with someone else? ETA-Re the word lecture, I suppose that is a matter of opinion. I feel that you are lecturing. You don't. As for the word bitter, that is the inference that I draw from your posts. Obviously you don't see it that way. |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jul 16, 2017 13:27:32 GMT
I don't understand what you DO want. What are you looking for? I overlooked this a second time and the attributed @fluteforpeace response as your own. I originally saw your comment and decided I wasn't going to give it a response. The last line in the OP should resonate. Also your question read as frustrated and with the hidden meaning that I've spoken at great length about what I want from society. I haven't. Though I think I've been pretty clear what I want. I think my ancestors were too. But for clarity and so no one can say I've snuffed useful dialogue I would like for you to examine what your personal and or societial responsibility is in repairing a very broken system. Be better people. If you read any of my other responses in subsequent threads I am sure I've touched on this. I would also like for people to stop putting words in my mouth and causing me to defend things I haven't said. You will see that a lot in the Beyoncé thread. |
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Post by mollycoddle on Jul 16, 2017 13:35:24 GMT
I don't understand what you DO want. What are you looking for? I overlooked this a second time and the attributed @fluteforpeace response as your own. I originally saw your comment and decided I wasn't going to give it a response. It reads as frustrated and with the hidden meaning that I've spoken at great length about what I want from society. I haven't. Though I think I've been pretty clear what I want. I think my ancestors were too. But for clarity and so no one can say I've snuffed useful dialogue I would like for you to examine what your personal and or societial responsibility is in repairing a very broken system. Be better people. If you read any of my other responses in subsequent threads I am sure I've touched on this. I would also like for people to stop putting words in my mouth and causing me to defend things I haven't said. You will see that a lot in the Beyoncé thread. I AM frustrated. I will agree with the need to be better. I would think that most people would. There is no way that society can ever really atone properly for the sin of slavery. I think that we all do have to do our part, questioning our assumptions and yes, privilege. We have to accept people as people rather than as labels. We should support each other. Beyond that, I do not have any ideas. But I am willing to listen. |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jul 16, 2017 13:41:59 GMT
I overlooked this a second time and the attributed @fluteforpeace response as your own. I originally saw your comment and decided I wasn't going to give it a response. It reads as frustrated and with the hidden meaning that I've spoken at great length about what I want from society. I haven't. Though I think I've been pretty clear what I want. I think my ancestors were too. But for clarity and so no one can say I've snuffed useful dialogue I would like for you to examine what your personal and or societial responsibility is in repairing a very broken system. Be better people. If you read any of my other responses in subsequent threads I am sure I've touched on this. I would also like for people to stop putting words in my mouth and causing me to defend things I haven't said. You will see that a lot in the Beyoncé thread. I AM frustrated. I will agree with the need to be better. I would think that most people would. There is no way that society can ever really atone properly for the sin of slavery. I think that we all do have to do our part, questioning our assumptions and yes, privilege. We have to accept people as people rather than as labels. We should support each other. Beyond that, I do not have any ideas. But I am willing to listen. Why does your frustration extend to me? You are right there is no way to atone but that shouldn't stop people from trying. Your part has to be more than questioning your assumptions and privilege. |
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Post by mollycoddle on Jul 16, 2017 13:48:42 GMT
I AM frustrated. I will agree with the need to be better. I would think that most people would. There is no way that society can ever really atone properly for the sin of slavery. I think that we all do have to do our part, questioning our assumptions and yes, privilege. We have to accept people as people rather than as labels. We should support each other. Beyond that, I do not have any ideas. But I am willing to listen. Why does your frustration extend to me? You are right there is no way to atone but that shouldn't stop people from trying. Your part has to be more than questioning your assumptions and privilege. I am frustrated because I don't have the answer. It probably extends to you only because you brought it up. |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jul 16, 2017 13:54:22 GMT
Why does your frustration extend to me? You are right there is no way to atone but that shouldn't stop people from trying. Your part has to be more than questioning your assumptions and privilege. I am frustrated because I don't have the answer. It probably extends to you only because you brought it up. I can respect that. I see the anger in some of the responses to me. The crazy accusations and it almost seems like people are disputing that the black experience even exists. I always wonder where that indignant behavior comes from. Maybe that's it |
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Post by SockMonkey on Jul 16, 2017 14:07:14 GMT
I am frustrated because I don't have the answer. It probably extends to you only because you brought it up. I can respect that. I see the anger in some of the responses to me. The crazy accusations and it almost seems like people are disputing that the black experience even exists. I always wonder where that indignant behavior comes from. Maybe that's it Maybe some of the frustration comes from just not even realizing what the black experience is. I started listening to Another Round podcast (which is hilarious), and they talked in the last episode about the opening lyrics to "Float On" by Modest Mouse: I backed my car into a cop car the other day
Well he just drove off sometimes life's OK
And they were laughing because it's a very white privileged lyric. What would happen to a black man if he backed into a cop car? And I was like, "Well, damn. I never thought of that." Just starting to recognize stuff like that, I think, will start to help. Start. It's hard. I'm trying. |
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ginacivey
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Post by ginacivey on Jul 16, 2017 14:42:45 GMT
i figured Olan was ramping up
she periodically goes thru my post history and "likes" comments
to add her spreadsheet
she's become adept at ignoring me - i figured she finally put me on ignore
until i woke up to a notification that she was stalking my replies again
happens every couple weeks
i get more notifications from Olan than anyone else!
gina
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Post by peatlejuice on Jul 16, 2017 14:45:51 GMT
I AM frustrated. I will agree with the need to be better. I would think that most people would. There is no way that society can ever really atone properly for the sin of slavery. I think that we all do have to do our part, questioning our assumptions and yes, privilege. We have to accept people as people rather than as labels. We should support each other. Beyond that, I do not have any ideas. But I am willing to listen. Why does your frustration extend to me? You are right there is no way to atone but that shouldn't stop people from trying. Your part has to be more than questioning your assumptions and privilege. This is going to fall on deaf ears, but... My frustration with you is that even when people tell you they are trying, and how they are trying, you essentially respond with, "That's not good enough, try harder, but figure it out yourself." Breaking down a systemic issue is hard, takes time and benefits from cooperation by everyone. I hear you saying, "I shouldn't have to explain this to you," which is true to a certain extent. But if you are going to take this stance, I'd hope you would show some grace towards people who are legitimately trying and asking for help. I've seen friends IRL take the, "I shouldn't have to explain this to you" stance and provide extremely graceful and thought provoking responses, while still encouraging and respecting the steps that have been taken. I know they are angry, as are you, but unlike you, they do not let their anger get in the way of their message and are far more effective because of it. |
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zookeeper
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Post by zookeeper on Jul 16, 2017 14:56:38 GMT
i figured Olan was ramping up she periodically goes thru my post history and "likes" comments to add her spreadsheet She is doing the same thing to me. Yesterday, she liked one of my threads that I started from 2015. Yes....I said 2015. I don't really give a flying fuck because she means nothing to me. As some one else posted earlier in this thread, Olan is only interested in lecturing. All she succeeds in doing is alienating people from being able to have a real discussion about race relations with her. She is her own worst enemy and the sad thing is that she will never recognize this. She will continue to hold on to her anger and indignation and allow it to color her entire life. All the while, she will seduce people into having discussions about race relations and then beat them over the head with a club. Productive....no? |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jul 16, 2017 14:57:10 GMT
Why does your frustration extend to me? You are right there is no way to atone but that shouldn't stop people from trying. Your part has to be more than questioning your assumptions and privilege. This is going to fall on deaf ears, but... My frustration with you is that even when people tell you they are trying, and how they are trying, you essentially respond with, "That's not good enough, try harder, but figure it out yourself." Breaking down a systemic issue is hard, takes time and benefits from cooperation by everyone. I hear you saying, "I shouldn't have to explain this to you," which is true to a certain extent. But if you are going to take this stance, I'd hope you would show some grace towards people who are legitimately trying and asking for help. I've seen friends IRL take the, "I shouldn't have to explain this to you" stance and provide extremely graceful and thought provoking responses, while still encouraging and respecting the steps that have been taken. I know they are angry, as are you, but unlike you, they do not let their anger get in the way of their message and are far more effective because of it. I disagree. Most peas are arguing what I am saying is even true. How about this When you see me exhibiting this type of behavior please call me out. If someone wants to ask me a question I will always try my best to answer it. It's true I don't have much hope for the peas and I am sure that shows in my interactions. It's probably not fair and certainly counter productive. If I bump and old thread it's to prove a current point. If I like your comment in a thread new or old it's not to nudge you or get your attention it's for my own ease of use. To remember who said what, also so I can share with other people in my life the discourse I have here at twopeas. I've said that before. Note the words used to describe me or my posting. |
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zookeeper
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Post by zookeeper on Jul 16, 2017 15:05:21 GMT
She is doing it again. She liked my post that I just posted. Should I be afraid that she is keeping track of me?  Whatever. |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jul 16, 2017 15:08:35 GMT
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Post by freecharlie on Jul 16, 2017 15:18:39 GMT
The quoted text in the OP and the constant posting style on this topic has made me care less and less.
I'm done trying as the OP clearly just wants to rant and blame and nothing else.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jul 16, 2017 15:22:20 GMT
The quoted text in the OP and the constant posting style on this topic has made me care less and less. I'm done trying as the OP clearly just wants to rant and blame and nothing else. You're more than welcome to do that without letting everyone know though I appreciate the time you took to do so. Some of you should be comfortable saying you have no desire to hear someone else's perspective no matter what style it's presented. Many of you want to remain stuck in your ways. No matter who those ways may hurt. I have to be comfortable with that. All the best to you |
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ginacivey
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Post by ginacivey on Jul 16, 2017 15:59:28 GMT
She is doing it again. She liked my post that I just posted. Should I be afraid that she is keeping track of me? Whatever. she's keeping track of anything you say that can be used against you in her own court of 'who is and who isn't a racist' at some point she'll use it it's weird gina |
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zookeeper
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Post by zookeeper on Jul 16, 2017 16:10:19 GMT
She will lose this one. I attend a pre-dominantly black church and the first boy that I kissed was black. I was raised as an Air Force brat which is one big melting pot. My dad's best friend when he was growing up in a very racist area was a black man whom I loved and adored. My dad was not going to allow being raised in a racist community to dictate his beliefs. Thankfully, he passed that along to me and my brother. I have family members that are racist and I spoke out against them at family reunions. I forbade my child from using the same terminology that he would hear at reunions.
I manage a retirement community and I am not afraid to tell residents who speak badly about "those people" that their speech is hateful and inappropriate. Sadly....I see it more often than I would care to but I also let them know that it will not be tolerated.
When my black residents put R & B music on the music station and the other residents get huffy....I am the one in there dancing to the music.
But hey....I am white therefore I am a racist.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jul 16, 2017 16:19:44 GMT
Use a thread about black anger and forgiveness and make it all about you.
Just because I think it's important we discuss race doesn't mean I can stand to spare the emotional energy required to care whether each of you are actually racist. That's why I'm no longer a frequent poster I tire of shifting through the interactions decided which ones were underhanded racist bs. The election tipped the scales. At most I have my thoughts about how racist you are and your actions either confirm or deny them. That's the reality of things. No one hesitates in coming back with a dismissive I am done with you Olan or the old I love black men and R&B but Olan thinks I am racist any way so who cares. No one boo boo. No one cares what I think LOL that's what makes it easy to come here and participate in the way that I do.
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zookeeper
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Post by zookeeper on Jul 16, 2017 16:24:02 GMT
Then why are you liking threads of mine from 2015? That had nothing to do with racism. Do you have a reason other than being crazy?
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zookeeper
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Post by zookeeper on Jul 16, 2017 16:26:37 GMT
Just because I think it's important we discuss race doesn't mean I can stand to spare the emotional energy required to care whether each of you are actually racist. Yet you continue to lump all white people together as racists. It is just easier for you to call all white people racists than it is for you to have a real conversation about racial relations. You speak out of both sides of your mouth. |
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Post by lisacharlotte on Jul 16, 2017 16:30:00 GMT
I've come to the conclusion that Olan is a troll. She's not looking for discussion. She brings up a controversial subject and makes statements intended to rile up the peas and succeeds. Then acts the victim with increasingly erratic posts and links that have nothing to do with the subject at hand. I can read for a while, but then it just gets too ridiculous even for me.
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Whatever.
