MDscrapaholic
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,345
Location: Down by the bay....
Jun 25, 2014 20:49:07 GMT
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Post by MDscrapaholic on Sept 19, 2017 20:35:47 GMT
Those employers are NOT "largely responsible for this mess." They took advantage of a situation in front of them. Yes, they should be punished, but the responsibility lies with those who broke the law by coming here illegally in the first place. The 1986 Immigration Reform Act was clear that employers had to verify the potential worker could legally work in this country. So when the employers knowingly hire undocumented workers they are not taking advantage of the situation they are breaking the law. If there had had been no jobs to entice folks to this country we wouldn't have 11M +/- undocumented folks here. That's true, but I hold the undocumented worker ultimately responsible for being here. They create the first link in the chain by breaking the law. |
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Post by gmcwife1 on Sept 19, 2017 20:59:41 GMT
Although I'm not the one that said they are largely responsible, they are, in fact, responsible because if our documentation laws were adhered to by all employers, there would not be employment and it would not be so enticing to come to the US. I've always held that those crossing the border, "criminal" or not, have broken the law and should be returned to their country. All of them. But employers who hire them make it way too easy to stay. As I've said many times here, I'm a black and white thinker in most areas and I make no apology for that. There is no gray for me when it comes to breaking the law. If you don't like a law, then work to change it. But you don't just get to arbitrarily break without repercussion just because you don't agree with it. You're right. I'm a black and white thinker too, and to me, the undocumented individual should be ultimately responsible. My DH was Canadian. He had to jump through a lot of hoops to live here, providing proof he had money in the bank and a job to work at. It took him months to get his Permanent Resident Alien card. I've always felt that if he could do that, so could the others who come here. I understand that everyone has different circumstances, but ultimately if you want to live here, you have to abide by the rules. Thank you  I know many people (friends and co-workers) that immigrated various ways. But they all followed the rules, did their wait and paid their money to do it legally. It feels like a slap in the face to people that did it legally to just ignore the laws for those that came her illegally. Also, what other countries would just let millions of people come into their country illegally, undocumented, whatever you want to call it. Other countries are allowed to enforce their immigration policies, it seems to be an issue when it's the US doing it. |
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 5, 2024 19:42:48 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2017 21:13:45 GMT
The 1986 Immigration Reform Act was clear that employers had to verify the potential worker could legally work in this country. So when the employers knowingly hire undocumented workers they are not taking advantage of the situation they are breaking the law. If there had had been no jobs to entice folks to this country we wouldn't have 11M +/- undocumented folks here. That's true, but I hold the undocumented worker ultimately responsible for being here. They create the first link in the chain by breaking the law. That's like what came first the chicken or the egg. Its reasonable to assume some undocumented folks would have crossed the border after the 1986 Immigration Reform Act just "to see". After all we had just given amnesty to 3M who had come across the border previously. If the employers had not been willing to hire them chances are most of them would have gone back across the border and there would not have been the great influx that happen because there would have been no jobs to lure them. If employers hiring undocumented folk s had not been a problem before 1986 why do you think the 1986 Immigration Reform Act required employers to check if the potential worker could work legally in this country and gave it some teeth with a fine and prision time? |
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MDscrapaholic
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,345
Location: Down by the bay....
Jun 25, 2014 20:49:07 GMT
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Post by MDscrapaholic on Sept 20, 2017 0:07:06 GMT
That's true, but I hold the undocumented worker ultimately responsible for being here. They create the first link in the chain by breaking the law. That's like what came first the chicken or the egg. Its reasonable to assume some undocumented folks would have crossed the border after the 1986 Immigration Reform Act just "to see". After all we had just given amnesty to 3M who had come across the border previously. If the employers had not been willing to hire them chances are most of them would have gone back across the border and there would not have been the great influx that happen because there would have been no jobs to lure them. If employers hiring undocumented folk s had not been a problem before 1986 why do you think the 1986 Immigration Reform Act required employers to check if the potential worker could work legally in this country and gave it some teeth with a fine and prision time? @fred, I don't want to argue with you. It's okay for you to blame the employers and it's also okay for me to blame undocumented workers. Like I said previously, my DH had to jump through hoops to live here and he did. He followed the rules. Not everyone does that and then complains about how unfair it is when they're caught, be it immediately or years later. I'm just stating how I feel about it. I strongly feel that if I, as an American, have to follow the rules to live here, they should too. I'm not saying you're wrong. You have a valid point. |
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Deleted
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May 5, 2024 19:42:48 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2017 1:00:22 GMT
That's like what came first the chicken or the egg. Its reasonable to assume some undocumented folks would have crossed the border after the 1986 Immigration Reform Act just "to see". After all we had just given amnesty to 3M who had come across the border previously. If the employers had not been willing to hire them chances are most of them would have gone back across the border and there would not have been the great influx that happen because there would have been no jobs to lure them. If employers hiring undocumented folk s had not been a problem before 1986 why do you think the 1986 Immigration Reform Act required employers to check if the potential worker could work legally in this country and gave it some teeth with a fine and prision time? @fred , I don't want to argue with you. It's okay for you to blame the employers and it's also okay for me to blame undocumented workers. Like I said previously, my DH had to jump through hoops to live here and he did. He followed the rules. Not everyone does that and then complains about how unfair it is when they're caught, be it immediately or years later. I'm just stating how I feel about it. I strongly feel that if I, as an American, have to follow the rules to live here, they should too. I'm not saying you're wrong. You have a valid point. It's not and shouldn't be a case of either or. And I do understand what those who aren't born here have to go through to live in this country. My mom was from Wales and never became a citizen. Through the years some of my friends were in the process of becoming citizens. In one case I was a character witness. It's not an easy task and it shouldn't be to become a citizen of this country. And kudos to those who make the trip because I happen to think it's worth it. But in the current immigration mess there were two parties at fault. And both parties should be held accountable. You can't deport undocumented workers and leave the employers free to look for other undocumented folks to fill the vacancies. Or ignore their contributions to this mess. And you are correct in that we are going to disagree on this. And that's what makes things so interesting. 😀 |
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 5, 2024 19:42:48 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2017 1:09:58 GMT
Oh, sure. They're pissed at her/Schumer for meeting with Trump. But, they also said this: “Democrats created an out-of-control deportation machine and handed it over to Trump,” they said. “We demand accountability. Democrats are not the resistance of Trump. We are.” It seems like a lot of people want to blame Trump, who has been in office for only 10 months, while ignoring numerous past administrations and lawmakers for continually playing kick the can on immigration reform. Well, now the Dreamers aren't glossing over Obama and the Democrats. And this issue isn't only about those 800,000 dreamers; it's about the 11 million undocumented immigrants. So now what happens? That "out-of-control deportion machine was set up to keep undocumented folks in this country until another immigration bill could pass. President Obama has deported more undocumented folks then any other president. Who he deported were criminals. And when those down south thought it was a good idea to send their kids alone across alone thinking they could join the kids President Obama said the kids would be deported to stop the kids from coming on a dangerous trip. From what I pieced together when ICE found undocumented folks if they were not criminals and had jobs etc they only needed to check in with ICE on a regular basis as opposed to being deported. Its this information that ICE is using to find undocumented folks to deport now . A day or two after trump took office he changed the head of ICE to a "by the book guy". So yet again trump lied when he said he was going after the criminals first. He's going after them all. Another note. A new immigration reform bill actually passed in the Senate during President Obama's time but the Republican controlled House never brought the bill to the floor for a vote. What those dreamers did yesterday was stupid on their part. The only reason they have somewhat legel status is because of a Democratic President. The only reason trump just didn't outright end DACA is because he wants something in return and to get it he needs Democrats. It was wrong of trump to use DACA as a bargaining chip and the Democrats have to find a way to protect those kids and bargain with trump. Because trump has veto power and if he doesn't get what he wants he is petty enough to veto a bill and I'm not sure there would be enough votes to overturn his veto. Not really. ...the number of people deported at or near the border has gone up — primarily as a result of changing who gets counted in the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency's deportation statistics.
The people on the front lines also refute the rest of your glorious claims about Obama. |
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Post by mollycoddle on Sept 20, 2017 1:25:09 GMT
That "out-of-control deportion machine was set up to keep undocumented folks in this country until another immigration bill could pass.
President Obama has deported more undocumented folks then any other president. Who he deported were criminals. And when those down south thought it was a good idea to send their kids alone across alone thinking they could join the kids President Obama said the kids would be deported to stop the kids from coming on a dangerous trip. From what I pieced together when ICE found undocumented folks if they were not criminals and had jobs etc they only needed to check in with ICE on a regular basis as opposed to being deported. Its this information that ICE is using to find undocumented folks to deport now . A day or two after trump took office he changed the head of ICE to a "by the book guy". So yet again trump lied when he said he was going after the criminals first. He's going after them all. Another note. A new immigration reform bill actually passed in the Senate during President Obama's time but the Republican controlled House never brought the bill to the floor for a vote. What those dreamers did yesterday was stupid on their part. The only reason they have somewhat legel status is because of a Democratic President. The only reason trump just didn't outright end DACA is because he wants something in return and to get it he needs Democrats. It was wrong of trump to use DACA as a bargaining chip and the Democrats have to find a way to protect those kids and bargain with trump. Because trump has veto power and if he doesn't get what he wants he is petty enough to veto a bill and I'm not sure there would be enough votes to overturn his veto. Trump talks out of both sides of his ass, so no disputing your statements about him. I knew the DACA debate and working on a plan to protect them, was going to be more than that. The Dreamers, and Democrats, want to give 11 million a pass. Republicans don't. Two parties having different views is no surprise. Some agreeing with Obama's EO and some not is no surprise. What is a surprise was the Dreamers criticizing the Democrats. They were turning on the party that has fought for them. I thought it was interesting when Pelosi said something along the lines of "you're not helping your cause" when trying to talk to the crowd. She's right; they were acting like jerks, and failing to realize how little actual power she has right now. And I am NOT a fan of hers. |
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Post by bc2ca on Sept 20, 2017 2:26:04 GMT
That's like what came first the chicken or the egg. Its reasonable to assume some undocumented folks would have crossed the border after the 1986 Immigration Reform Act just "to see". After all we had just given amnesty to 3M who had come across the border previously. If the employers had not been willing to hire them chances are most of them would have gone back across the border and there would not have been the great influx that happen because there would have been no jobs to lure them. If employers hiring undocumented folk s had not been a problem before 1986 why do you think the 1986 Immigration Reform Act required employers to check if the potential worker could work legally in this country and gave it some teeth with a fine and prision time? @fred , I don't want to argue with you. It's okay for you to blame the employers and it's also okay for me to blame undocumented workers. Like I said previously, my DH had to jump through hoops to live here and he did. He followed the rules. Not everyone does that and then complains about how unfair it is when they're caught, be it immediately or years later. I'm just stating how I feel about it. I strongly feel that if I, as an American, have to follow the rules to live here, they should too. I'm not saying you're wrong. You have a valid point. I have to agree with @fred that it is a which came first situation in a lot of ways and, IMHO, no Administration has been willing to take on the issue because of the profound negative impact deporting 11 million people would have on our economy. I have a lot of empathy for them, especially when millions are caught in a situation where half the family is undocumented and half American citizens. The reality is that undocumented immigration dropped dramatically during the recession. Employers are very much part of the problem. When they weren't hiring, fewer came. MDscrapaholic, my family immigrated 18 years ago from Canada. There is no way I can compare my situation to those who leave behind abject poverty to try make themselves a better life. SaveSave |
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Sept 20, 2017 3:18:49 GMT
That's like what came first the chicken or the egg. Its reasonable to assume some undocumented folks would have crossed the border after the 1986 Immigration Reform Act just "to see". After all we had just given amnesty to 3M who had come across the border previously. If the employers had not been willing to hire them chances are most of them would have gone back across the border and there would not have been the great influx that happen because there would have been no jobs to lure them. If employers hiring undocumented folk s had not been a problem before 1986 why do you think the 1986 Immigration Reform Act required employers to check if the potential worker could work legally in this country and gave it some teeth with a fine and prision time? @fred , I don't want to argue with you. It's okay for you to blame the employers and it's also okay for me to blame undocumented workers. Like I said previously, my DH had to jump through hoops to live here and he did. He followed the rules. Not everyone does that and then complains about how unfair it is when they're caught, be it immediately or years later. I'm just stating how I feel about it. I strongly feel that if I, as an American, have to follow the rules to live here, they should too. Im not saying you're wrong. You have a valid point. It sounds like your husband's situation and requirements for immigrating are much different than those who are here illegally. |
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Post by burningfeather on Sept 20, 2017 4:59:25 GMT
It sounds like your husband's situation and requirements for immigrating are much different than those who are here illegally. I'm not sure what you meant by this, but it sounds like her husband did what was legally required. Unlike anyone here illegally. I do think that it's possible if someone has been living here productively and without criminal behavior, there could be support for a pathway to citizenship. I do not, however, think that it should require less than someone who has come here legally either through legal immigration or through a legal green card. Coming here illegally and living here for any period of time should not be a shortcut or a discount to becoming a legal US citizen. |
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Post by LiLi on Sept 20, 2017 5:50:51 GMT
This is a total mess. This sure didn't help the cause did it? IMO We all need to come together with compromise for all sides. Hard working people who are already here, who cane here to give tgeir families better lives, need a way to become legal, pay taxes etc. People who are hiring undocumented workers also need some sort of consequences or the problem will never stop. People brought here as kids should not be punished for their parents crimes. This is a knee slapper... There is no gray for me when it comes to breaking the law. If you don't like a law, then work to change it. ...Except trademark infringement. That is a grey area, ey? 🖒 Couldn't forget that old thread. Sorry for the digression.  |
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MDscrapaholic
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,345
Location: Down by the bay....
Jun 25, 2014 20:49:07 GMT
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Post by MDscrapaholic on Sept 20, 2017 10:44:26 GMT
It sounds like your husband's situation and requirements for immigrating are much different than those who are here illegally. I don't understand this statement either. My husband's "situation" was that he had a wife here and a job here. It took us six months (back in the early 1980s) to go through the process of becoming a permanent resident alien. Multiple trips back to Canada to obtain the necessary paperwork/documentation. But we did it, we followed the rule of the law. As a result, my DH was able to live here until he passed in 2010. bc2ca, you're right. There's no comparison to that and those fleeing abject poverty. I feel for them. The USA dropped the ball on immigration years ago. It's time to fix it. |
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