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Post by mom26 on Sept 22, 2017 3:58:49 GMT
DS works night stocking at a major grocery chain. They have an employee we will call Burt.
Burt is an angry man and NOT a team player.
DS has only been there 4 months and has witnessed the following:
- Purposely damaging stock
- Cursing out other employees (DS was on the receiving end of this once)
- Loud, profane-laced arguments with supervisors and mgmt when they call him on his behavior
- Storming out mid-shift
- Mgmt has had to be called at 2am due to his angry outbursts
- Being late to work and taking major issue with that being brought to his attention and told he will be docked. He now gives the finger to the entrance security cam and declares a hearty 'F*** you' when he comes to work.
Burt has been an employee there for 5 years. These issues have been constant and he's been through numerous anger mgmt classes and counseling on the employer's dime.
When he has an episode, they take him off the schedule for a few days and he comes back all nice. For a day or two. Then he's back to being hostile and aggressive and argumentative. This happens pretty much monthly.
Mgmt has put in requests to terminate him, but HR says they CAN'T. His issues are performance-related and if they fired him, they'd have to pay unemployment. They don't want to do that.
I'm sorry, but 5 years of aggressive and disruptive behavior, plus the cost of anger mgmt classes and counseling must surely outweigh whatever UEI they may have to pay. Or am I missing something?
But bigger than that, is that this is fostering a hostile work environment. At least, that's how I see it. I do NOT understand how they cannot terminate under those conditions. I honestly worry sometimes about DS and his co-workers if/when this guys ends up going full postal.
Can any HR RPeas explain the reasoning behind not terminating Burt?
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Post by papersilly on Sept 22, 2017 4:13:21 GMT
I'm not in HR but creating a hostile work environment is tantamount to sexual harassment. This was explained during orientation when I started working for the state university system. I was really surprised because I always thought sexual harassment was the lewd comments or unwanted contact. Apparently, a hostile work environment falls under that category too.
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snyder
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,956 
Location: Colorado
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Post by snyder on Sept 22, 2017 5:02:20 GMT
I know that a lot of games are played with employees being terminated, probation etc, but this one sounds a bit beyond. You mention major grocery chain. By chance would they be union? If so, could you son speak with a union rep? The excuse of having to pay unemployment sounds a bit fishy to me. Yes, no company really wants to do that, but in this case, it should NOT matter, for crying out loud, they are a major chain. One claim is not going to make or break them and besides, they will fire him for good reason, and he will be penalized unemployment for x weeks. He may find a job before he really collects. They can also appeal it. Doesn't matter if he gets fired for performance or not, he is being fired and that receives a penalty and can be appealed on both sides. The company will win this one. I lawsuit would definitely cost them more. Not much help, but this is not right!
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 18, 2024 20:27:05 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2017 6:07:57 GMT
It is very hard to fire an employee will mental issues. You can move them to another work place and send them to counseling, but firing? Nope, especially if they are full time.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 18, 2024 20:27:05 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2017 6:09:35 GMT
DS works night stocking at a major grocery chain. They have an employee we will call Burt. Burt is an angry man and NOT a team player. DS has only been there 4 months and has witnessed the following: - Purposely damaging stock - Cursing out other employees (DS was on the receiving end of this once) - Loud, profane-laced arguments with supervisors and mgmt when they call him on his behavior - Storming out mid-shift - Mgmt has had to be called at 2am due to his angry outbursts - Being late to work and taking major issue with that being brought to his attention and told he will be docked. He now gives the finger to the entrance security cam and declares a hearty 'F*** you' when he comes to work. Burt has been an employee there for 5 years. These issues have been constant and he's been through numerous anger mgmt classes and counseling on the employer's dime. When he has an episode, they take him off the schedule for a few days and he comes back all nice. For a day or two. Then he's back to being hostile and aggressive and argumentative. This happens pretty much monthly. Mgmt has put in requests to terminate him, but HR says they CAN'T. His issues are performance-related and if they fired him, they'd have to pay unemployment. They don't want to do that. I'm sorry, but 5 years of aggressive and disruptive behavior, plus the cost of anger mgmt classes and counseling must surely outweigh whatever UEI they may have to pay. Or am I missing something? But bigger than that, is that this is fostering a hostile work environment. At least, that's how I see it. I do NOT understand how they cannot terminate under those conditions. I honestly worry sometimes about DS and his co-workers if/when this guys ends up going full postal. Can any HR RPeas explain the reasoning behind not terminating Burt? Can't explain the reasoning; it may be Burt has a condition that puts him under ADA protection such as a veteran with ptsd or anyone with any mental disorder can be protected which makes firing harder. But I am astounded at what you know for your son to only be there 4 months. A lot of this should be under Burt's privacy rights and not be common knowledge. Makes it sound like there is a bigger HR problem. You son should have no idea what management has done to get rid of Burt, his counseling , anger management classes.. none of it. Truthfully, if you are worried about it then it is time your ds find another job somewhere else. |
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Post by gailoh on Sept 22, 2017 9:48:46 GMT
This guy sound like one who would go off on the deep end and hurt others to me, I would have my son looking for a new job to keep on the safe side....sorry your son has to deal with this abuse because this is abuse...please let us know how this turns out...
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Post by peasapie on Sept 22, 2017 10:31:23 GMT
DS works night stocking at a major grocery chain. They have an employee we will call Burt. Burt is an angry man and NOT a team player. DS has only been there 4 months and has witnessed the following: - Purposely damaging stock - Cursing out other employees (DS was on the receiving end of this once) - Loud, profane-laced arguments with supervisors and mgmt when they call him on his behavior - Storming out mid-shift - Mgmt has had to be called at 2am due to his angry outbursts - Being late to work and taking major issue with that being brought to his attention and told he will be docked. He now gives the finger to the entrance security cam and declares a hearty 'F*** you' when he comes to work. Burt has been an employee there for 5 years. These issues have been constant and he's been through numerous anger mgmt classes and counseling on the employer's dime. When he has an episode, they take him off the schedule for a few days and he comes back all nice. For a day or two. Then he's back to being hostile and aggressive and argumentative. This happens pretty much monthly. Mgmt has put in requests to terminate him, but HR says they CAN'T. His issues are performance-related and if they fired him, they'd have to pay unemployment. They don't want to do that. I'm sorry, but 5 years of aggressive and disruptive behavior, plus the cost of anger mgmt classes and counseling must surely outweigh whatever UEI they may have to pay. Or am I missing something? But bigger than that, is that this is fostering a hostile work environment. At least, that's how I see it. I do NOT understand how they cannot terminate under those conditions. I honestly worry sometimes about DS and his co-workers if/when this guys ends up going full postal. Can any HR RPeas explain the reasoning behind not terminating Burt? Can't explain the reasoning; it may be Burt has a condition that puts him under ADA protection such as a veteran with ptsd or anyone with any mental disorder can be protected which makes firing harder. But I am astounded at what you know for your son to only be there 4 months. A lot of this should be under Burt's privacy rights and not be common knowledge. Makes it sound like there is a bigger HR problem. You son should have no idea what management has done to get rid of Burt, his counseling , anger management classes.. none of it. Truthfully, if you are worried about it then it is time your ds find another job somewhere else. I was thinking the employee might have protections, too. My son managed an office with a few employees who had ADA protection and were nearly impossible to fire despite repeated infractions. |
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Post by Really Red on Sept 22, 2017 11:36:31 GMT
Burt sounds scary. I am guessing things vary by state, because in Washington, DC, if you fire for cause, you do not have to pay unemployment. Only if you let someone go. We had someone who was a horrible employee and we couldn't fire her for those reasons as it was hard to prove, but we could fire her for being late. We gave her 9 times of being late and many warnings and we got rid of her in about 2.5 weeks. She fought it in court and when she was late to the hearing, the judge got mad at her and threw it out. Sorry your DH is going through this.
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Post by christine58 on Sept 22, 2017 12:05:13 GMT
But I am astounded at what you know for your son to only be there 4 months. A lot of this should be under Burt's privacy rights and not be common knowledge. Sounds like her DS has witnessed a lot of it and I bet some of the other incidents were witnessed by other employees....not a privacy issue when witnessed |
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Post by mikklynn on Sept 22, 2017 12:09:14 GMT
I think your DS should look for a new job. Life is too short to deal with this crap.
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tincin
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,368
Jul 25, 2014 4:55:32 GMT
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Post by tincin on Sept 22, 2017 12:13:00 GMT
Burt sounds scary. I am guessing things vary by state, because in Washington, DC, if you fire for cause, you do not have to pay unemployment. Only if you let someone go. We had someone who was a horrible employee and we couldn't fire her for those reasons as it was hard to prove, but we could fire her for being late. We gave her 9 times of being late and many warnings and we got rid of her in about 2.5 weeks. She fought it in court and when she was late to the hearing, the judge got mad at her and threw it out. Sorry your DH is going through this. This made me laugh, her showing up late for the court hearing on her dismissal for being late too often. |
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Post by littlemama on Sept 22, 2017 12:14:57 GMT
Mgmt has put in requests to terminate him, but HR says they CAN'T. His issues are performance-related and if they fired him, they'd have to pay unemployment. They don't want to do that First, if his dismissal is performance related and they have appropriate documentation, he will not be eligible for unemployment. If HR doesn't know that, they shouldn't be in HR. Second, paying unemployment will be much cheaper than paying for the lawsuit that will result when his behavior goes too far. |
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rickmer
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,123
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Post by rickmer on Sept 22, 2017 12:32:22 GMT
But I am astounded at what you know for your son to only be there 4 months. Sounds like her DS has witnessed a lot of it and I bet some of the other incidents were witnessed by other employees....not a privacy issue when witnessed that makes total sense. if someone has a meltdown or storms around angry and cursing, as a new employee i am probably going to turn to a colleague and say "what is up with that??". if it's been 5 years and not been dealt with, i would suggest your son keep his eyes up for another job. i would also mention when i gave notice that i found the environment uncomfortable and felt it was necessary to look elsewhere. |
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Post by mom26 on Sept 23, 2017 2:19:26 GMT
Thanks for weighing in, ladies. I've been gone since the rooster started crowing this morning and am just now getting back to this thread. Those that suggested that 'Burt' may have ADA protections could be on to something. I would think, though, that with everything else that is known, that would be too. Also, he is not full time. Not sure what the distinction would be, but he's part time. voltagain - I agree with you that it's not a positive thing at all that this info is common knowledge. Like christine58 and rickmer mused, most of this was learned via overhearing during the many public meltdowns. It's an empty grocery store at night. Sound carries. As for DS quitting, while I'm leaning towards that, no way DS will. He LOVES this job. His goal is to work his way up to manager much like the current Dist. Mgr did. Quite a few of the managers started with night shift grocery, so it is possible and he wants to go for it. He also doesn't seem to be worried that Burt will go full on 'postal', he's just tired of him making work so difficult when he's in one of his moods. *I* worry about that, DS...not so much. Anyway, thanks for letting me vent about it. It befuddles me, to be sure, but I guess there could be legitimate reasons it's being allowed to go on. I wish it wasn't, but a common joke there is that it is impossible to be fired. Guess that may be true. |
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Post by kels99 on Sept 23, 2017 2:35:55 GMT
Can't employees get unemployment if they quit because of a "hostile work environment" (not sure of the exact wording)? So the company is potentially saving on Burt's UE, but are opening up the possibility of having to pay it for anyone who quits because of Burt's behavior. That doesn't make sense.
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Post by mom26 on Sept 23, 2017 3:04:57 GMT
Can't employees get unemployment if they quit because of a "hostile work environment" (not sure of the exact wording)? So the company is potentially saving on Burt's UE, but are opening up the possibility of having to pay it for anyone who quits because of Burt's behavior. That doesn't make sense. I've not heard of that, but it may be the case in some states? Honestly, save an ADA compliance, I think the company is leaving themselves open to much worse than having to pay some UE by keeping this guy on. |
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Post by kels99 on Sept 23, 2017 3:11:26 GMT
Can't employees get unemployment if they quit because of a "hostile work environment" (not sure of the exact wording)? So the company is potentially saving on Burt's UE, but are opening up the possibility of having to pay it for anyone who quits because of Burt's behavior. That doesn't make sense. I've not heard of that, but it may be the case in some states? Honestly, save an ADA compliance, I think the company is leaving themselves open to much worse than having to pay some UE by keeping this guy on. My mom got unemployment this way, but it was 30 years ago, so things may have possibly changed a bit since then. ha ha! |
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Rhondito
Pearl Clutcher
MississipPea
Posts: 4,664
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Post by Rhondito on Sept 23, 2017 3:35:21 GMT
How old is your son? Just curious.
Since this store is a national chain, there should be a sign posted with a number that employees can call and report issues anonymously. I would advise him to call and tell them he feels he is in a "hostile work environment" (use those exact words) and that this employee's outbursts make him feel uncomfortable and/or threatened. It's possible this has gone on for so long and no other employee has formally complained, that HR is trying to make things easy on themselves with the unemployment insurance issue. Once they hear someone bring up hostile work environment, like with sexual harassment, their tune may change. Just a thought.
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pridemom
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,843
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Post by pridemom on Sept 23, 2017 4:27:44 GMT
As for the ADA, safety of other employees is grounds for termination, even if someone has a disability that causes them to act out like this individual. The company needs to contact a good legal firm that specializes in employment law for advice.
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PaperAngel
Drama Llama
Posts: 7,355
Jun 27, 2014 23:04:06 GMT
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Post by PaperAngel on Sept 23, 2017 4:51:22 GMT
Not an HR professional, but a cynic. I wouldn't be surprised if this employee is tolerated due to a connection with an influential family/business/work program in the community or member of management at the grocery store (who isn't directly affected by his behavior). Best wishes to your son...
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Post by christine58 on Sept 23, 2017 10:55:28 GMT
As for DS quitting, while I'm leaning towards that, no way DS will. He LOVES this job. His goal is to work his way up to manager much like the current Dist. Mgr did. Quite a few of the managers started with night shift grocery, so it is possible and he wants to go for it. Any chance of a different shift?? I am betting this employee has mental health/ADA issues that preclude him from losing his job...totally WRONG IMHO--an ass is an ass is an ass regardless of "disability". |
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 18, 2024 20:27:05 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2017 12:20:21 GMT
I’m in HR and it depends, does he have an accommodation for a disabity? I.e a mental illness? If not if the hr/Management team is doing their job he can be terminated for cause and they wouldn’t owe unemployment tax. It sounds to me like Management is afraid of this guy. The company is making a huge mistake by treating this employee with kid gloves while letting the others be mistreated by him.
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