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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2018 1:20:21 GMT
Last week, a white woman called the cops on a Black 8 Year Old Girl for selling water on the sidewalk in front of her apartment. The reason she cited was that the little girl didn't have a permit. The little girl's mom videotaped the phone conversation and posted the video online. The phone caller was hashtagged as PermitPatty. When twitter tracked her down, she claimed she called for a noise violation, and then said she didn't call at all, only pretended to call, and that she never saw who it was (so therefore it couldn't be race related), she just was irritated with the noise because she couldn't work. The police confirmed she really did call, about permits, not noise.
Twitter figured out her real identity, published it, along with her Company Name, and began calling for a boycott. Multiple retailers of her product terminated their account with her company and ultimately resigned as CEO. She claims now to be a victim, both for her business loss and she claims she has been deluged with hate mail and threats. I don't know who figured out who she is, or how. (ETA: People later found a now-deleted facebook post where she defended her actions by basically saying (paraphrased--HER words, not mine) "with THOSE people, today it's water, tomorrow it's drugs." She's a disgusting human being whose motives are unquestionable, despite her protests.
Another lady was filmed spouting off a horrific rant to a Mexican. There are many tweets of "come on, internet, let's figure out who she is and take her down!"
BarbequeBecky, BurritoBob...all the same.
I absolutely believe these vile people deserve every legal consequence they get, including boycotts, loss of business, loss of jobs, etc. There is no justification for anything any of these people did and I do not defend them in any way, shape, or form.
But it does make me wonder..what happens when the internet is wrong? One day, someone's going to identify the wrong person, or the wrong business, and someone's life or livelihood is going to be decimated, possibly irreparably, because of the lynch mob. So how do we avoid that? And does the fact that it could happen mean we should avoid the practice altogether?
I honestly don't know what to think. I think they definitely shouldn't be able to hide behind their anonymity, but I also don't want to think of what could happen to a legitimately innocent person by mistake.
I just thought it was an interesting conversation topic. I can legitimately see both sides of the argument, which is why I don't know where I fall.
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Post by #notLauren on Jun 30, 2018 1:21:41 GMT
I think the internet and twitter have created a mob mentality that scares the bejezzus out of me.
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Post by pierkiss on Jun 30, 2018 1:24:04 GMT
I am not a fan of having the internet ruin someone’s life. I think it’s insane.
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trollie
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by trollie on Jun 30, 2018 1:27:34 GMT
If you are acting vile in public, someone just might record you. That's just the way of the world these days. Heck, we are on security cameras going in an out of businesses. We are being recorded constantly.
As an aside, the Tweeter-in-Chief as made it a-okay to go after people on Twitter whether what he alleges is true or not. Not setting a good example, that one.
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Post by mollycoddle on Jun 30, 2018 1:28:47 GMT
I am not a fan. It reeks of vigilante justice. I prefer legal remedies.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2018 1:28:59 GMT
I am not a fan of having the internet ruin someone’s life. I think it’s insane. I don't think anyone should intentionally set out to ruin anyone's life, but I also think that if't that's a natural consequence of someone holding your behavior out in the light, then that's a choice you made. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2018 1:29:40 GMT
And if we agree that it's too risky of a behavior (and I think there's serious reason to think it might be), then how do we stop it?
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Post by mollycoddle on Jun 30, 2018 1:32:29 GMT
And if we agree that it's too risky of a behavior (and I think there's serious reason to think it might be), then how do we stop it? I think that the genie is out of the bottle. You should always assume that you might be photographed or filmed. |
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Post by littlemama on Jun 30, 2018 1:34:39 GMT
I think that the internet outrage is over the top. We are becoming a society that thinks everyone who makes a mistake or does something distasteful deserves to have their life ruined. It's a sad state of affairs.
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Post by pierkiss on Jun 30, 2018 1:34:52 GMT
I am not a fan of having the internet ruin someone’s life. I think it’s insane. I don't think anyone should intentionally set out to ruin anyone's life, but I also think that if't that's a natural consequence of someone holding your behavior out in the light, then that's a choice you made. I think the biggest problem I have with this is that there is never any escape. Like, if you do something terrible, and someone catches you doing it, and takes it to the internet and “they” flip out and damage your reputation and name, that’s it. There’s no coming back from it. You will forever be known as “person who x”. Redemption isn’t possible, as All a future employer has to do is google your name and all of that stuff immediately pops up. I’m not saying there shouldn’t be consequences for crappy behavior. Of course there should. I just don’t think that completely destroying someone’s entire life pretty much forever is an ok consequence for some of these things. I’m not sure I’m explaining myself well here. I spent a lot of time in the sun today and am pretty tired. 🙂 |
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zella
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Post by zella on Jun 30, 2018 1:35:24 GMT
I remember reading about a case of mistaken identity in a case like this, so it has already happened. And that is utterly horrible for the victim of the error.
I think public shaming is an appropriate response for racism and hate speech. In fact I think it is the only option that may end up punishing these assholes at all.
I do think there is a place for shame and embarrassment in society. Some people don't agree with that. I don't see this practice ending any time soon.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2018 1:40:27 GMT
I think the biggest problem I have with this is that there is never any escape. Like, if you do something terrible, and someone catches you doing it, and takes it to the internet and “they” flip out and damage your reputation and name, that’s it. There’s no coming back from it. You will forever be known as “person who x”. Redemption isn’t possible, as All a future employer has to do is google your name and all of that stuff immediately pops up. This is my big objection to teens having social media and smart phones. They have the capacity to ruin each other's lives with one mistake. |
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jun 30, 2018 2:11:20 GMT
And another—
#poolpatrolpaula
After the incident (instigated by this Paula person)
The police went to her home where she pushed a police officer, hurting his knees—and then bit another officers breaking the skin! So more charges of resisting arrest, assault in police officers added to the assault charge from the pool.
Arrested.
Lost her job.
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Post by Merge on Jun 30, 2018 2:33:28 GMT
I agree that there is the potential for an innocent person to be caught up and subject to "Twitter Justice." "YouTube Justice" has made me an extremely careful teacher - I try never to do or say anything that could be misconstrued in an out-of-context YouTube clip, because even little kids have phones these days.
We can say that it's not right all day long, and it's not - but I'd say it's the modern equivalent of tarring and feathering, or being "shunned" by polite society for some social faux pas. Nothing is new under the sun. Some people become scapegoats. Twitter is just the latest medium used for this purpose.
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Post by chlerbie on Jun 30, 2018 2:41:03 GMT
A friend of mine from school went through this--though she didn't do anything that was harmful to anyone else and had a really tough time with it. You can read her story here: catherinebosley.com/about-me.cfm |
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Post by bc2ca on Jun 30, 2018 2:45:33 GMT
Maybe people will think twice before behaving like assholes in public.
It is a little scary how quickly they are very specifically identified.
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Post by MsChiff on Jun 30, 2018 3:05:06 GMT
I am not a fan of having the internet ruin someone’s life. I think it’s insane. I don't think anyone should intentionally set out to ruin anyone's life, but I also think that if't that's a natural consequence of someone holding your behavior out in the light, then that's a choice you made. So, you do support vigilante justice. I don't and I view the vigilantes as often being worse than the original offender. Far too often the punishment certainly doesn't fit the crime. We have a legal system and vigilante justice shouldn't be tolerated. SaveSave |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2018 3:26:57 GMT
I don't think anyone should intentionally set out to ruin anyone's life, but I also think that if't that's a natural consequence of someone holding your behavior out in the light, then that's a choice you made. So, you do support vigilante justice. I don't and I view the vigilantes as often being worse than the original offender. Far too often the punishment certainly doesn't fit the crime. We have a legal system and vigilante justice shouldn't be tolerated. SaveSaveInteresting perspective. I tend to categorize vigilante justice as violence. If you behave like a jerk and people see you behaving like a jerk, and then say "I don't want to do business with that jerk," it seems to be a natural consequence of your action. I think yelp reviews, boycotts, etc, are all borne out of that. But I also think a line is crossed when people are sharing personal information, setting out to harm a livelihood, etc. And admittedly, I don't know how you define what that line is. Somehow there's a difference, which I can't articulate, between natural consequences and intentionally seeking to harm. I know our conscience helps us define that, but how do you define that as a collective. And you mention the legal system, but in all these cases, the buttheads didn't do anything illegal, except maybe call 911 without an actual emergency. How do you create legal protections, while preserving free speech (in this case I'm thinking not of the haters, but of the tweeters)? |
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Post by mygigiscraps on Jun 30, 2018 3:40:15 GMT
We have become a society that thrives on malicious behavior, whether we are perpetrators or consumers of it. It's sad and frightening, and I don't see it getting better. In many ways, we are losing our humanity.
Yes, there should be consequences for the negative behavior. But is public shaming and ruining lives teaching the understanding and compassion we desire to see in others, or is it just breeding more contempt?
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Post by Frazzled Mom on Jun 30, 2018 5:24:01 GMT
If you behave like a jerk and people see you behaving like a jerk, and then say "I don't want to do business with that jerk," it seems to be a natural consequence of your action. I think yelp reviews, boycotts, etc, are all borne out of that.  |
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LeaP
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Post by LeaP on Jun 30, 2018 5:51:37 GMT
What is interesting to me is that the women you mentioned are all in California. BBQ Becky and Permit Patty are in the Bay Area while the Landscape Lucy and the Simi Valley woman are here in SoCal where I live. Tomorrow I will march in downtown Los Angeles for the third time this year. You will not see me recorded for acting like a jerk because even if I encounter hecklers I will ignore them. You will not see me yelling nasty things at people who are not white because I know that we all came to this country to make a life. We live side by side here in California and we share the same right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
If I see somebody behaving like a jerk I will pull out my phone and put it on Twitter. It is not OK to harass people. I will stand up and speak out because it is the right thing to do and because now that my kids need me less I am less afraid. If I call 911 it will because I have witnessed a crime, injury or an emergency not because I think a person of color needs a permit.
These women should know better. Even if they don't know better, they should strive to be better. They deserve to suffer the consequences of needlessly calling the police. The latest one in Simi Valley has a business just 7 miles from my house. I am glad she was outed so that when I hire a contractor I will hire one who does not yell at a 14-year-old boy while his mother is in the bathroom.
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LeaP
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Post by LeaP on Jun 30, 2018 5:51:52 GMT
What is interesting to me is that the women you mentioned are all in California. BBQ Becky and Permit Patty are in the Bay Area while the Landscape Lucy and the Simi Valley woman are here in SoCal where I live. Tomorrow I will march in downtown Los Angeles for the third time this year. You will not see me recorded for acting like a jerk because even if I encounter hecklers I will ignore them. You will not see me yelling nasty things at people who are not white because I know that we all came to this country to make a life. We live side by side here in California and we share the same right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
If I see somebody behaving like a jerk I will pull out my phone and put it on Twitter. It is not OK to harass people. I will stand up and speak out because it is the right thing to do and because now that my kids need me less I am less afraid. If I call 911 it will because I have witnessed a crime, injury or an emergency not because I think a person of color needs a permit.
These women should know better. Even if they don't know better, they should strive to be better. They deserve to suffer the consequences of needlessly calling the police. The latest one in Simi Valley has a business just 7 miles from my house. I am glad she was outed so that when I hire a contractor I will hire one who does not yell at a 14-year-old boy while his mother is in the bathroom.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2018 8:33:13 GMT
I haven't heard about the Simi Valley one. Being from Newbury Park, hearing it from near so close to home hurts my heart.
It does surprise me that they're from California, which is so diverse and metropolitan. I'd expect this stuff from much more homogenous places.
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Post by gar on Jun 30, 2018 9:07:10 GMT
It makes me uncomfortable. There’s too much room for error/misunderstanding/grey areas when things may not be as they seem or there may be more to the story than can be seen.
In Some cases - people do seem to deserve what they get but I think it’s a dangerous path even though that horse has probably already bolted.
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Post by mollycoddle on Jun 30, 2018 9:31:54 GMT
I remember reading about a case of mistaken identity in a case like this, so it has already happened. And that is utterly horrible for the victim of the error. I think public shaming is an appropriate response for racism and hate speech. In fact I think it is the only option that may end up punishing these assholes at all. I do think there is a place for shame and embarrassment in society. Some people don't agree with that. I don't see this practice ending any time soon. I’m fine with public shaming. It’s a tradition going back to the earliest days of this nation, well before we became a country and was widely used to control behavior. This also gives people the option not to do business with someone who has done something offensive. The problem I have is that it doesn’t stop there. Getting someone fired is a step too far IMO. You aren’t changing behavior; you’re ruining someone’s livelihood. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2018 10:53:55 GMT
I'm very uncomfortable, not only with "twitter justice" but any social media justice. Invariably there is more to most stories than you can cover in the number of characters allowed on platforms such as Twitter. It's a modern digital version of spreading gossip and or vigilante justice. It is not always a true reflection of what went on. Unfortunately, the innocent get caught up with guilty.
I don't believe in publicly naming and shaming either. Just because one person had a bad experience with a company doesn't mean it's the norm. Everyone makes mistakes that they might regret doing later. In this day and age when people start jumping on the band wagon, especially those that have had no experience of the situation themselves, it can do a lot of damage to not only a company, but to individuals as well. That isn't the case with this particular hateful woman and I can sort of understand why the mum did it. Video it by all means as evidence for an alternative legal way to get justice
but I still think it is the wrong way of dealing with the situation by posting it on social media.
But I think it's too late, it's now become the norm for many. No difference than spreading genuine fake news without first checking whether it's true or not.
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Post by monklady123 on Jun 30, 2018 11:21:13 GMT
I'm a bit torn over this question, because it is a mob mentality that gets going and it could be someday that an innocent person will get caught up in it. Although...the quality of so many of these videos is quite good so identifications are usually pretty obvious. However... this is 2018. Every person alive, except the really elderly and the very young, should know by now that cameras are a way of life. Security cameras are everywhere, everyone has a phone with a camera, etc. This is life. We don't have to like it but we do have to live with it. So don't do things that you don't want someone to see! This is a good thing with, for example, dumb kids... I'm thinking middle-high school age who want to TP a house or skateboard through the cemetery past the sign that clearly says "no skateboarding"...stuff like that. These days it's likely to be recorded or photographed and the kids will have to face the consequences. And for more serious stuff it is definitely a good thing. Remember Charles Kinsey, the African-American therapist who was shot by Florida police as he tried to help an autistic client? Thankfully that was recorded so the truth could be put out there, otherwise it would have been the word of the police against the word of Mr. Kinsey and we know who probably would have won that one. -- Or the neo-Nazi rally in Charlottesville. Many of those marchers were identified from photos and video taken during the march, and lost their jobs. I'm not sympathetic, not in the least. If someone thinks they can spew hatred and then go back to their ordinary life...well I'm glad that they can't. As for the woman who called the police on the little girl...If the girl was really making too much noise for someone to work then a normal person would have just gone out there and talked to the girl and/or her mother.  So in general I'm in the group that says "you reap what you sow". |
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imsirius
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Call it as I see it.
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Post by imsirius on Jun 30, 2018 11:22:18 GMT
Here's my take..
She posted on her fb page. She uttered a racial slur (those people), on social media. She lied and changed her story to avoid being caught, knowing full well she did what she was accused of. That's immoral and wrong.
Should people have stalked her identity? Maybe not, but she truly is reprehensible and deserved to be called out. If you are running a business, then don't publically express your racial slurs. There are consequences for actions and some people seem to have forgotten this!
I said it yesterday, having the President doing it publically with no remorse or consequence, makes people feel that the can now come out of hiding with their disgusting behaviours without fear of backlash.
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anniebygaslight
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Post by anniebygaslight on Jun 30, 2018 11:34:02 GMT
Maybe she should have thought twice before being so petty with a child. Perhaps others will learn from this and understand that there might be repercussions beyond their wildest nightmares and that the mob will judge them and may take action, right or not.
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Post by pierkiss on Jun 30, 2018 12:07:24 GMT
I remember reading about a case of mistaken identity in a case like this, so it has already happened. And that is utterly horrible for the victim of the error. I think public shaming is an appropriate response for racism and hate speech. In fact I think it is the only option that may end up punishing these assholes at all. I do think there is a place for shame and embarrassment in society. Some people don't agree with that. I don't see this practice ending any time soon. I’m fine with public shaming. It’s a tradition going back to the earliest days of this nation, well before we became a country and was widely used to control behavior. This also gives people the option not to do business with someone who has done something offensive. The problem I have is that it doesn’t stop there. Getting someone fired is a step too far IMO. You aren’t changing behavior; you’re ruining someone’s livelihood. I am just going to say that public shaming does not bring about long term behavior change. It may make a small change in the short term. But I’m the long term, people are not likely to make changes to their behavior because they have been publically shamed. web.calstatela.edu/faculty/jshindl/cm/Chapter19behavioralSystems-final.htm |
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