“White Fragility” Book Discussion - Chapters 1-3

O.K., kicking off the discussion. I need help understanding the idea of race as a social construct. I have heard this before and understand that, scientifically speaking, there is no physical difference in races. I also understand a specific race cannot be identified by certain characteristics and that who belongs to what race is debatable.


But here is what trips me up. People identify with their race in a way that seems very integral to their identity, not as something imposed from the outside. I have a friend who is of mixed race but looks very white. Even so, she identifies as a person of color. This is something that she is unable to explain in any way other than that it Just "feels" right to her.


So, am I just confusing race with ethnicity? Or maybe I hear "social construct" and interpret that as "not real". But clearly it is real in some sense because here we are talking about it and it holds tremendous power in our culture and what are we dealing with if it isn't "real".


Can someone help me out with this. I feel like my brain has just lifted the edge of this consept but I can't get any further than that.

I took some notes while reading!

From the intro, the concept that white as an us/group was interesting. I don’t think of myself that way, because I’m the majority I imagine. It is interesting my kids do, they point out things “white people do” and are comfortable with that. Because they grew up primarily overseas as a minority, so they can see it? Or perhaps must more self aware? I’m not sure.

Also intro- white progressives. Hello, me I will admit to feeling a bit surly like “well of course I’m different”. Of course I think that, which is why I need the book!

Ch 1

I recently read Prairie Fires (about Laura Ingalls Wilder) so the meritocracy and individualism talk resonated. It’s a like reoccurring myth we as white Americans cannot let go of, even though it is false.

Also I have faced institutional racism in my weird little world as an expat so duh I am totally better at not being racist...but actually that experience here has nothing at all to or is comparable to the experiences of POC in the US and as a white American in America it really is not relevant or helpful. This was challenging to think about.

Ch 2

“The power of our questions to shape the knowledge we validate”- wow. That is something to ponder.

“If poor whites were focused on feeling superior to those below them in status, they were less focused on those above”- isnt this the truth. I have many family members and friends who oppose capital gains taxes, etc...but they haven’t got a pot to piss in and will never pay them. But maybe someday, and they want to protect that chance, or believe they may be the upper class someday. Mostly they wantfeverently to not be lumped in with poor people of color, when in reality they are all struggling. If we can’t get together to struggle, it only helps the oppressors.

Very interesting aboutPOC and systemic racism, POC cannot be systemically racist as whites co tell all the systems. I never thought about that, but it’s true. A POC can be racist, but they can’t influence or control the power system. They are not really comparable, due to that.

...and that’s as far as I got. I felt u co for table reading which I think is the point, and hopefully my random notes make sense.

I started on the Kindle version and am into Ch 2. The first was a bit of a hard read. I found myself feeling defensive, as in, am I supposed to feel bad for being white? Apologetic? LOTS of room to think here.

Chapter 2 is more in line with what I know. Not a lot of time to delve into detail today but I wanted to mark my place and let you know I'm reading along!

It does make me feel defensive.

OK, I had a couple points I wanted to discuss and now can not find them in my kindle. That's annoying. I do prefer regular books for book discussions but too late.

If you are feeling defensive while reading, just keep at it with an open mind and try to absorb what the author is saying without arguing your side in your head. I found myself getting bogged down by details a couple times, such as when the author makes the case that white people saw Jackie Robinson as the first black man talented enough to break the color barrier in major league baseball. I for one have never heard any such explanation, and I can't imagine any white people racist or not who believe that. Obviously black athletes were shut out because they were black, not because they weren't good enough. I suppose old people might have been raised that way to protect white men's view of themselves as superior to black men in all endeavors. I don't know. I certainly was taught, by my family and in school, that racism kept him out and he was one of the first to help break down that barrier.

But there is where I was getting caught up in MY OWN EXPERIENCE, which is a very normal thing to do but won't necessarily allow for growth and learning. I'm starting Ch 3 and I'll try to make better use of the bookmark feature though I always seem to mess it up, to me kindles aren't the most intuitive gadgets when you're trying to do anything more than simply read.

I don't have the book, but have been watching the author and others discuss on "Youtube". Now some of this I feel like is over my head. I did not go to college and only have a High School degree. But what got me was that she said "That by 3 years of age all children know it's better to be white than black" That has to be social construct, right? (if I'm using the word right)

I am just starting my reading and only in the intro (intending to get through the first 3 chapters tonight) and the diversity training sessions she describe ring so true for me... but with men and D&I training in tech. Racial diversity is definitely an issue there too, but gender diversity gets more attention and holy hell do men get pissed about that. They see themselves as naturally deserving of the roles, and can't imagine that women are equally qualified - any woman getting a job MUST be getting it for quota reasons or because they flirted or slept with someone. The sense of inherent superiority - "me are better at this kind of work" - is mind-boggling. Lots of parallels with the white fragility concept when talking about racial diversity.

As a side note, I'm going to a conference next week that Ijeoma Oluo (author of "So You Want to Talk About Race?") is speaking at and I'm really excited to hear her.

I'll be back with better considered thoughts when I'm done with the chapters.

I agree with this. People have to have away to justify how "the others" are treated. Otherwise how could you not see yourself as a monster.

And if you have done any research with DNA you would know there is no such thing as race.

I did and I'm into chapter 4 but I find I can't remember what I wanted to talk about until I pick up the book...I think I am trying to absorb too much info at once, writing papers and taking tests for my research class. I read for myself when I'm going to sleep so naturally I'm forgetting what I wanted to talk about! I'll try to do better.

Thank you--you reminded me of a couple thoughts I had. Aversive racism would definitely apply to me, in the form of avoiding talking about the issue when the conversation turns that direction. We probably have all had moments around other white people when a racist comment is made. Say you're at work. Do you call them out? Make your displeasure known and then move on, or do you have it out? Do you ignore it because you have a million tasks still to complete? Do you rationalize it away because she has black friends and maybe she didn't "mean it that way"? Say it's a patient. Do you give them a pointed stare? Ignore the comment? Tell them what you really think of them? When you hear an old person call your coworker "that little colored gal, what a sweetheart" and you know she means well but what do you say? You are there in a professional capacity. How can you educate without alienating? What should that conversation sound like? What about when a comment is directed at you by a member of another race, saying you're probably a racist. How do you avoid feeling resentment?

These are not necessarily all my own experiences, just feeling my way around what aversive racism is and looks like.

Another observation for myself, I don't feel this anxiety to "make a good impression" or let everyone know I'm not a racist in a professional setting, only in a social or casual setting. As a nurse or patient it rarely enters my mind that I would even need to do that. That's something I never thought about or realized.

Thanks again sockmonkey for starting this discussion and thanks for the links