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Post by catmom on Oct 5, 2018 1:28:06 GMT
This turned out to be a long post and kind of a vent.
The company I work for has a burgeoning Women's Network group that is officially sponsored by senior management. It's to promote gender diversity, and provide mentorship and support for women. At the kickoff breakfast meeting a male VP was invited to be a keynote speaker, the idea being to show the support from our male colleagues. He talked about how he was raised by a single mom, has sisters, most of his mentors have been women, etc. We just had our second breakfast and he was attended again, though not a speaker this time.
Before I tell you more about him, how do you feel about men participating in these kind of events?
I wasn't totally a fan of the idea but I was 'eh', not that fussed either way.
Here's the thing. While he has roughly 50% female staff, he has hired/promoted 0% women as direct reports. Further he's a total alpha male and he can be (or at least seem) like a bit of a bully. Mind you, I have a bad reaction to alpha males so that may colour my view of him.
And at this latest meeting he told us some stats about women's lack of opportunity, like he was educating us on the challenges women face in the workplace. I'm sure he didn't mean to be condescending, but it felt like since a man is acknowledging it - it must be true!
The icing on the cake for me was when he shared his understanding of women's unique challenges by saying that he allows his employees to use a sick day as a personal day if their kids get sick or have to go to the hospital. Now, every single people manager I know, including myself, "allows" (allows - really?) our staff to take the day off for family illness. So that's pretty standard.
Most of us, myself included, allow our staff to work from home or make the time up, or even just take it off occasionally if needed. We rarely actually require they take a sick day. I figure we all get our hours in over the course of the year, why make someone's life more difficult. Which is a long-winded way to say I thought that was kind of a weird statement, and not in keeping with the culture. And he said it with such pride, as an example of how woke he is.
So mostly I'm just venting, but these are the kind of actions that lead me to say I don't think men should be part of women's groups. The support is great, but part of the reason we have and need a women's group is because of these kinds of unconscious attitudes. Can you tell I'm irked? So am I just being whiny? How would you feel about a man joining your corporate women's group?
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Post by freecharlie on Oct 5, 2018 1:34:42 GMT
Since I work in a female dominated environment, I can't really relate, but I think having to listen to a man telling me how hard it is to be a woman would irritate me. I'd probably just roll my eyes.
I'm not sure I am a fan of a corporate women's group when there would not be the same opportunity for a male group. I know, I know...it is a man's world so they don't need a group, but I still don't really like it.
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eleezybeth
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Jun 28, 2014 20:42:01 GMT
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Post by eleezybeth on Oct 5, 2018 1:45:48 GMT
Can you write a comment card to someone indicating how hypocritical it seems to have him as a keynote speaker (and his speech)?
Yes, it would bug me.
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lindas
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Post by lindas on Oct 5, 2018 2:00:34 GMT
How can you have a group to promote gender diversity if you don't allow men to attend? If your group is just to mentor and support women then it shouldn't include the phrase "to promote gender diversity".
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Post by catmom on Oct 5, 2018 2:04:01 GMT
I'm not sure I am a fan of a corporate women's group when there would not be the same opportunity for a male group. I know, I know...it is a man's world so they don't need a group, but I still don't really like it. Fair point. I actually don't think a women's group is particularly necessary in my field or organization. But I figure if we're going to have a group for women, then let's make it worthwhile and welcoming. |
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Post by misadventurous on Oct 5, 2018 2:11:25 GMT
If you're going to have a group designed to help women succeed, why exclude someone who is interested in supporting you just because they happen to be male? If you think they are clueless and don't understand the real issues, help them understand. It sounds like perhaps this guy is well-meaning, but it also sounds like someone needs to point out his less-than-stellar history of promoting women. Has anyone done that?
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Post by catmom on Oct 5, 2018 2:22:31 GMT
If you're going to have a group designed to help women succeed, why exclude someone who is interested in supporting you just because they happen to be male? If you think they are clueless and don't understand the real issues, help them understand. It sounds like perhaps this guy is well-meaning, but it also sounds like someone needs to point out his less-than-stellar history of promoting women. Has anyone done that? Good point. Regarding your question, I don't know the answer for certain, but I doubt anyone has spoken with him about his promotion practices. |
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Post by jenjie on Oct 5, 2018 2:39:30 GMT
How can you have a group to promote gender diversity if you don't allow men to attend? If your group is just to mentor and support women then it shouldn't include the phrase "to promote gender diversity". Agreed. |
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kate
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Jun 26, 2014 3:30:05 GMT
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Post by kate on Oct 5, 2018 3:43:31 GMT
Oooh wow this is touchy. A lot depends on your field. I teach young children; in my field, having a support group for male teachers would not seem like a weird idea, as they are in the minority (though my school has a lot of them!) The point of affinity groups is usually to give voice, networking, and support to an underserved, underprivileged, or underrepresented group. If a male is dominating the conversation at an affinity group for women, then he's actually perpetuating the problem that the group is meant to help address! This And at this latest meeting he told us some stats about women's lack of opportunity, like he was educating us on the challenges women face in the workplace. is a prime example. It was probably "news" to him, but it's very condescending to tell that to women who live it every day. He should be taking his feminist urges (and I give him credit for wanting to do something positive) to his MALE colleagues. In a women's group, his job is to LISTEN, not talk. Imagine a white person telling a POC affinity group about the biases and challenges that people of color face every day. Ridiculous and offensive, right? That white person needs to be enlightening white people who don't get it, not POCs who know it all too well. I think there can be a place at the table for a few members of the privileged group (though I respect those who would say the privileged group should stay away altogether), but they need to L I S T E N a lot and talk little. And if the privileged members outnumber the members of the affinity group, then it's no longer really an affinity group. |
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Post by jennyap on Oct 5, 2018 9:23:52 GMT
Oooh wow this is touchy. A lot depends on your field. I teach young children; in my field, having a support group for male teachers would not seem like a weird idea, as they are in the minority (though my school has a lot of them!) The point of affinity groups is usually to give voice, networking, and support to an underserved, underprivileged, or underrepresented group. If a male is dominating the conversation at an affinity group for women, then he's actually perpetuating the problem that the group is meant to help address! This And at this latest meeting he told us some stats about women's lack of opportunity, like he was educating us on the challenges women face in the workplace. is a prime example. It was probably "news" to him, but it's very condescending to tell that to women who live it every day. He should be taking his feminist urges (and I give him credit for wanting to do something positive) to his MALE colleagues. In a women's group, his job is to LISTEN, not talk. Imagine a white person telling a POC affinity group about the biases and challenges that people of color face every day. Ridiculous and offensive, right? That white person needs to be enlightening white people who don't get it, not POCs who know it all too well. I think there can be a place at the table for a few members of the privileged group (though I respect those who would say the privileged group should stay away altogether), but they need to L I S T E N a lot and talk little. And if the privileged members outnumber the members of the affinity group, then it's no longer really an affinity group.All of this. We have a similar Women's Network where I work, and men are definitely encouraged to attend, but the speakers thus far have always been women. As kate said, the men are there to listen and learn. |
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johnnysmom
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Post by johnnysmom on Oct 5, 2018 10:01:13 GMT
Since I work in a female dominated environment, I can't really relate, but I think having to listen to a man telling me how hard it is to be a woman would irritate me. I'd probably just roll my eyes. I'm not sure I am a fan of a corporate women's group when there would not be the same opportunity for a male group. I know, I know...it is a man's world so they don't need a group, but I still don't really like it. I thought I was the only one who thought that. If it’s supposed to gender equality then there should be equal meetings, have a women’s group and a men’s group. |
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muggins
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Post by muggins on Oct 5, 2018 11:19:53 GMT
Since I work in a female dominated environment, I can't really relate, but I think having to listen to a man telling me how hard it is to be a woman would irritate me. I'd probably just roll my eyes. I'm not sure I am a fan of a corporate women's group when there would not be the same opportunity for a male group. I know, I know...it is a man's world so they don't need a group, but I still don't really like it. I thought I was the only one who thought that. If it’s supposed to gender equality then there should be equal meetings, have a women’s group and a men’s group. The corporate world is one giant men’s club anyway. That’s why there’s a need for a women’s group. I think it’s fine for men to be invited and listen to women’s ideas, but I would have a problem with a man in power being given yet another platform to manspain how women are marginalised in the workplace. |
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Post by catmom on Oct 5, 2018 12:09:12 GMT
I thought I was the only one who thought that. If it’s supposed to gender equality then there should be equal meetings, have a women’s group and a men’s group. The corporate world is one giant men’s club anyway. That’s why there’s a need for a women’s group. I think it’s fine for men to be invited and listen to women’s ideas, but I would have a problem with a man in power being given yet another platform to manspain how women are marginalised in the workplace. This! This is a great explanation of what was bothering me (beside the dude himself). |
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Post by mikklynn on Oct 5, 2018 12:15:02 GMT
We have an initiative to hire more women engineers right out of college. If the men in our company don't get involved and actively promote women, it won't happen.
I attended a women's event this year and the senior executive (male) that spoke was excellent.
I would not have received the message from the speaker at your event very well, however.
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smartypants71
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Post by smartypants71 on Oct 5, 2018 12:27:07 GMT
We have several diversity groups in my company (Women's Network, Black Organization, LGBTQ+, veterans) and everyone is invited and encouraged to attend. However, that speaker at your event sounds pretty tone deaf and I would have been irritated too.
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Post by misadventurous on Oct 5, 2018 14:57:32 GMT
We have an initiative to hire more women engineers right out of college. If the men in our company don't get involved and actively promote women, it won't happen.I attended a women's event this year and the senior executive (male) that spoke was excellent. I would not have received the message from the speaker at your event very well, however. This is 100% true. I think having a women-only group for support only would be fine, but I don't think it does anything to actually effect change in the workplace. The men have to be actively involved and on board with change, like it or not. |
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Post by bc2ca on Oct 5, 2018 15:12:26 GMT
I thought I was the only one who thought that. If it’s supposed to gender equality then there should be equal meetings, have a women’s group and a men’s group. The corporate world is one giant men’s club anyway. That’s why there’s a need for a women’s group. I think it’s fine for men to be invited and listen to women’s ideas, but I would have a problem with a man in power being given yet another platform to manspain how women are marginalised in the workplace.  It doesn't sound like he is walking the walk if isn't hiring/promoting women as direct reports and needs to listen to what women are wanting in terms of mentorship and support rather than patting himself on the back for "allowing" them to take sick/personal days. |
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justmeami
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Post by justmeami on Oct 5, 2018 15:24:44 GMT
Our company also has a Women's group. The first year we did a big meeting for International Women's Day. The male managers were told they needed to go, even if they didn't want to and that they needed to be "Advocates". That wasn't the best way to get their support. The day of the event there were a lot more men than women in the room. We had quite a few speakers, including our male CEO, and had no issues with what they were presenting.
What I found interesting was that one of the speakers talked about how women in groups will not speak up if there are men in the group. This was borne out when they broke us up into small groups to discuss "issues facing women in the workplace". The men overwhelming spoke up about what they saw as the issues while most of the women waited quietly. Finally I had enough and brought up the statistics that the speaker had presented and how it was being displayed during this discussion. The men stepped back and the women finally started talking up.
I think it's great that the men are there to support but there sometimes you just need the women in order to allow good discussions of the challenges women face. Especially when the field you are in is male dominated.
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Post by JustCallMeMommy on Oct 5, 2018 15:27:33 GMT
Are there women at his level? Is he the executive sponsor (most company organizations have one executive that has ultimate decision making and escalation responsibility for each project or group)?
What is his percentage of women applying for those positions? I could be accused of not hiring males, but 99% of my applicants are female. I can't explain why - that is including external applicants who would not know the position was reporting to a female.
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Post by lisacharlotte on Oct 5, 2018 15:41:33 GMT
If your group wants to help women in a male dominated field, you will need men to get other men on board. Just women meeting isn’t going to change anything since the reason the women are meeting is because they don’t have the connections or networks to make the change.
Also, it’s not diverse if you exclude.
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peabrain
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Post by peabrain on Oct 5, 2018 17:41:11 GMT
But if he isn't at these types of activities, when will the lightbulb go off for him? He's not going to get it ...nothing is going to sink in for him elsewhere. Why not try to teach him a few things? Use the time to your benefit.
Next time have a speaker about men who don't promote women. Or what women go through working and raising families and their "sick time".
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Post by kamper on Oct 5, 2018 21:30:59 GMT
We have several diversity groups in my company (Women's Network, Black Organization, LGBTQ+, veterans) and everyone is invited and encouraged to attend. However, that speaker at your event sounds pretty tone deaf and I would have been irritated too. This. My DH is the boss and he attends every event he is invited to as a show of support. He just listens and socializes. I think this can be a good idea to have senior managers attend meetings like this to give all employees more access to management. It sounds like this guy was a terrible pick for a speaker. |
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Post by julieinsweden on Oct 6, 2018 5:56:01 GMT
As an Engineer I live the delicate balance of being a female in a mans world.
My thoughts are similar to peabrain, that this might be the light bulb moment for him. He might not have thought about the issues before researching them for his presentation. I think it's a shame no one has asked him about his own hiring/promoting practices, but I don't think it is too late either.
Here in Sweden we have the opposite problem. There is so much of a drive to have gender diversity that there is positive discrimination for us. Women are being chosen over equally, or better, qualified men just because they are female and will improve the statistics. It drives me crazy when I hear they want 50% women at various levels. If you look at the percentage of girls entering engineering it is only 20-30% depending on field. So companies are overlooking alot of best in class of 2018 if the only try to get girls.
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Post by chances on Oct 6, 2018 14:05:26 GMT
How can you have a group to promote gender diversity if you don't allow men to attend? If your group is just to mentor and support women then it shouldn't include the phrase "to promote gender diversity". Because you promote diversity by making efforts to promote and retain woman in the industry and positions that are mostly men (hense not diverse). This is accomplished by addressing barriers women face, providing support in a non hostile environment and proving "insider" information--tips, strategies etc., that are often given to men but not women. Women's groups provide these things, among others. Most times these goals are best achieved in groups with only women. |
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Post by chances on Oct 6, 2018 14:08:31 GMT
We have an initiative to hire more women engineers right out of college. If the men in our company don't get involved and actively promote women, it won't happen. I attended a women's event this year and the senior executive (male) that spoke was excellent. I would not have received the message from the speaker at your event very well, however. I agree that men need to get involved. I think there are mulitiple strategies necessary. Some where men are a part of the group and some where they're not. |
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muggins
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Post by muggins on Oct 6, 2018 17:16:25 GMT
As an Engineer I live the delicate balance of being a female in a mans world. My thoughts are similar to peabrain, that this might be the light bulb moment for him. He might not have thought about the issues before researching them for his presentation. I think it's a shame no one has asked him about his own hiring/promoting practices, but I don't think it is too late either. Here in Sweden we have the opposite problem. There is so much of a drive to have gender diversity that there is positive discrimination for us. Women are being chosen over equally, or better, qualified men just because they are female and will improve the statistics. It drives me crazy when I hear they want 50% women at various levels. If you look at the percentage of girls entering engineering it is only 20-30% depending on field. So companies are overlooking alot of best in class of 2018 if the only try to get girls. Sometimes the balance needs to swing in the opposite direction for a while until it evens things out. White men have had the monopoly over everything for centuries. In order to rectify that, they’re going to have to really prove that they are capable rather than just getting a leg up because of their race and gender. ETA my DH is an engineer who is director of a global automotive company. As a white male, surrounded by other white males, we have heated conversations about the lack of women and POC in his workplace. He is adamant that jobs should be given to anyone who is capable. I ask him why they are mostly all white males. |
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Post by SockMonkey on Oct 7, 2018 0:58:08 GMT
I'm not opposed to the idea generally, but in the OP's case, that was the WRONG man and the wrong voice to amplify. If your keynote speaker at a women's function is a male who has problematic positions on women's role in the company and has created zero opportunities for women, I'm not attending, and I am sure as hell speaking up about that shit..
Whose voices are important? If anything, men should attend to listen and learn. Not to be the focus of the event.
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It doesn't sound like he is walking the walk if isn't hiring/promoting women as direct reports and needs to listen to what women are wanting in terms of mentorship and support rather than patting himself on the back for "allowing" them to take sick/personal days.
