|
|
Post by heckofagal on Oct 20, 2018 5:31:10 GMT
We have a 3 year old Morkie who up until now has not had any formal training classes. We taught her to sit and to stay and to come but that's about it. She's had some behaviors that need to corrected. Any time we have company she wants to jump all over and pester our guests. Can't hardly walk her as she pulls constantly on the leash. She's a very anxious dog and will cry any time we take her anywhere in the car, even if we are going to the dog park. She cowers away from the other dogs and just walks around pouting until you pick her up. And she has separation anxiety so if she knows we are getting ready to leave she begins barking at us, or when someone from my family comes home she will bark (like she is yelling at them for leaving).
There is a very well known kennel/dog spa/training facility here in town that we took her to when we went on vacation. I was impressed by all the dogs who just sat nicely by the front door while they were there for their training so I decided to sign up our pup. We just met with the trainer after her first week of training where he was explaining the progress she made and I was told he has been using a pinch collar. He said she's been doing well this week but she was kind of spazzing out tonight instead of doing what she was supposed to do and just wanted her mommy to hold her. I could tell he was honestly surprised with her reaction as he thought he was going to out on a great show of everything she has learned. I did get her settled down enough that she walked the parking lot very nicely for both my husband and me. The whole time we were there several dog parents were telling us how great this trainer has been with their dogs.
But I have reservations about this collar for training. I don't believe in shock collars, and feel like this is not much different. I probably would not have taken her there if I had known this was part of their practice, but I do see improvement with walking her on the leash already.
Any of you have thoughts about this type of collar used for training?
|
|
gsquaredmom
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,078
Jun 26, 2014 17:43:22 GMT
|
Post by gsquaredmom on Oct 20, 2018 9:08:50 GMT
We used to think so, but the woman at Petco that we did our puppy trading with convinced us otherwise. As long as they are used properly, they are just another training tool. And they look worse than they are.
We have a big, solid muscle, 125 lb rescue dog who needed help with leash training. He was pulling toward squirrels and rabbits and almost pulling the leash holder over. He does not pull as much but we continue to use it since he still finds little critters interesting. She helped us size a prong collar, and he now loves it when we pull it out as it signals walk time. He loves his collar.
|
|
|
|
Post by Patter on Oct 20, 2018 10:25:35 GMT
I too hated those collars. I do not use shock or prong collars but now LOVE our chain collar. Is that what you are calling a pinch collar? I have included an image of what we use. Our trainer used it for our boys, and I was SO against it but now use it religiously for walks. It is awesome when used properly; however, I remember that you need to be extremely careful with these on tiny dogs. I don't know that I would use one on a tiny dog because of their trachea. Our boys are 75 lbs. I would NOT use a prong collar on our boys; only the chain collar. Have you thought about a martingale collar? That may be a better choice for you.  |
|
|
|
Post by Zee on Oct 20, 2018 12:32:41 GMT
It's really hard to train a dog when your first instinct is to go into "Mommy" mode and hold the dog when you think it's freaking out. You're reinforcing bad behavior or fear when you do that.
I wouldn't use a prong collar on a morkie, only on a very large dog that pulls enough to be a danger. I used the collar above to train my lab how to walk properly on her leash. I'd hesitate to use it on a little dog.
For MILs fearful idiot Chihuahua I use a harness and non-retractable leash and don't let him pull or get picked up when he freaks out, so guess who he behaves for and who he doesn't behave for? He pulls her all over the place and she picks him up when men or bicycles go by because he's trained her to do that. When I walk him I have to undo everything she's done for a day or two and then he's great--like magic. When he pulls excessively or freaks out I stop and lift him up just off his front feet for a few seconds with his harness to sort of re-set his brain. It's been really effective with him.
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy4scraps on Oct 20, 2018 14:05:37 GMT
You have to be really careful with small dogs and any kind of training collar that pinches or constrains their neck as many small breeds have a delicate trachea that could be crushed. I will only use a harness on my tiny five pound toy poodle. There are alternate ways to train a dog and I would look into them for a dog that size. It will probably take a lot of time and patience. Even the place we took one of our big labs to for obedience classes said not to use prong type training collars on any small breeds, only on very large dogs with heavy coats.
|
|
|
|
Post by Horse scrap on Oct 20, 2018 14:40:59 GMT
We use the prong collars on our dogs, but they are 80 lb German Shepherds. I won’t take them outside if they don’t have those collars on because they are so strong, I’ve been hurt (pulled to the ground) if they don’t have them on. When they are on, I can control them, and they behave perfect. I’d be leary about using them on a small dog, BUT I’d talk to the trainer to see what his plan is, why he feels it is necessary..... AND is the collar sized and used properly.
|
|
|
|
Post by gryroagain on Oct 20, 2018 14:46:52 GMT
Yeah so I guess a Morkie is a...Maltese and yorkie? It is a small mutt, anyway. I have no issue with prongs and e collars for dogs who need them, they are a tool in the box, but I have a seriously hard time thinking that dog needs one. Mals and such he’s, but a Morkie? I have border collies and they are very soft dogs and would never use one, had a lab and a Pyr who I did because needed. I am not opposed to them, at all, but you have to fit the tool to the dog.
Spazz...high energy, not focused? Work on focus. Do games that bring the focus to you, look up Susan Garret on YouTube. It’s yer choice is magic for dogs, they learn self control. You can force the dog or you can teach the dog...guess which one really works long term. Your dog is reacting to what it is seeing and given, it is on you to change that, and me personally punitive mensures are unfair of the dog has had no chance to react appropriately (ie never shown, an environment that is too stimulating). You have to build up to distractions. You have to teach the dog..
|
|
|
|
Post by Patter on Oct 20, 2018 16:45:47 GMT
Yeah so I guess a Morkie is a...Maltese and yorkie? It is a small mutt, anyway. I have no issue with prongs and e collars for dogs who need them, they are a tool in the box, but I have a seriously hard time thinking that dog needs one. Mals and such he’s, but a Morkie? I have border collies and they are very soft dogs and would never use one, had a lab and a Pyr who I did because needed. I am not opposed to them, at all, but you have to fit the tool to the dog. Spazz...high energy, not focused? Work on focus. Do games that bring the focus to you, look up Susan Garret on YouTube. It’s yer choice is magic for dogs, they learn self control. You can force the dog or you can teach the dog...guess which one really works long term. Your dog is reacting to what it is seeing and given, it is on you to change that, and me personally punitive mensures are unfair of the dog has had no chance to react appropriately (ie never shown, an environment that is too stimulating). You have to build up to distractions. You have to teach the dog.. Absolutely love that--"force the dog or teach the dog." So, so true! |
|
|
|
Post by jennoconnell on Oct 20, 2018 20:01:16 GMT
We have two dogs who were becoming very dog aggressive on walks, like neighbors were crossing the street to avoid us. I was injured twice walking them. I read all the books, tried all the Dog Whisperer stuff, nothing worked.
We hired a professional training team who taught us proper use of chain, prong and e-collars. I found the e-collar was too aggressive for me. The prong collars were used as training tools. Now that the dogs and I are all on the same page, they are very well behaved with chain collars only now. Very rarely do they need a correction.
I think everyone has to find what works for them. I would not advocate the use of any type of training collar without professional supervision though. As others mentioned, injuries can occur if they are not used properly.
|
|
|
|
Post by internetmama on Oct 20, 2018 20:22:30 GMT
This guy is the guru of dog training with prong collars: m.youtube.com/watch?v=23zEy-e6KhgYou must buy a real Herm Springer collar from their own website and not from Amazon where many are fakes. The true German made collars are rounded and not sharp whereas the Chinese copies and many pet store versions are sharp and dangerous. That said, this collar has made my very rowdy walker into the ideal dog. I can literally hold his leash with my pinky finger. Before he would lunge and bark and generally be awful. He has turned into a dream to walk. When he sees another dog or bike rider or whatever use to make him go crazy, he quietly looks at me for a treat and we pass without a sound or tug. It has been a night and day transformation. I so wish I had tried it sooner, he would have been such a different dog. He was 6 years old when we started. I didn’t think these collars were humane, but I learned a lot and he learned so quickly. Watch the videos and see what you think. |
|
|
|
Post by vspindler on Oct 20, 2018 20:28:53 GMT
I think so. I worked with a force free trainer who takes in those kinds of collars, as well as shock ones, and gives training discounts for them. It does require a lot of diligence and consistency on your part but I think it is far better than the alternative.
|
|
|
|
Post by heckofagal on Oct 20, 2018 21:28:36 GMT
Thanks for your responses. Yes, she is a Maltese/Yorkie mix so only like 11 pounds. Any time we took her out on her harness she would pull and end up making these gagging coughing noise. She does not do that with this collar. This is a Herm Springer collar. I think it is truly helping her, as she seems to be more well behaved. We also spoke to a family friend who trains dogs and told her the whole story and she said it seems like the trainer is a good one and that we are headed in the right direction. I think we will go back for another week of training.
thanks!
|
|
Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103 
|
Post by Rainbow on Oct 20, 2018 21:34:16 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by gmcwife1 on Oct 21, 2018 1:37:21 GMT
It's really hard to train a dog when your first instinct is to go into "Mommy" mode and hold the dog when you think it's freaking out. You're reinforcing bad behavior or fear when you do that. I wouldn't use a prong collar on a morkie, only on a very large dog that pulls enough to be a danger. I used the collar above to train my lab how to walk properly on her leash. I'd hesitate to use it on a little dog. For MILs fearful idiot Chihuahua I use a harness and non-retractable leash and don't let him pull or get picked up when he freaks out, so guess who he behaves for and who he doesn't behave for? He pulls her all over the place and she picks him up when men or bicycles go by because he's trained her to do that. When I walk him I have to undo everything she's done for a day or two and then he's great--like magic. When he pulls excessively or freaks out I stop and lift him up just off his front feet for a few seconds with his harness to sort of re-set his brain. It's been really effective with him. I completely agree with the mommy mode. That is not helping your dog and our trainer agrees with z*g, you are reinforcing and encouraging your dogs bad behavior and fears. I’m also a little confused on how much an 11 pound dog can pull. I have a Samoyed as the first dog I’ve trained and I’ve been able to teach him to not pull and I’m not a dog trainer. It sounds like you are satisfied with your trainer so the only thing I would suggest is making sure you and the family also get training. For me the biggest issues with sending dogs to trainers is if the family doesn’t also get trained, the dog will then go back to its old ways. Often the hardest part of dog training is training the people. |
|
|
|
Post by heckofagal on Oct 22, 2018 0:07:57 GMT
gmcwife1 - she's not pulling to the point where she can pull me over but she gets super excited and pulls to the point it is making herself cough and gag. It's dumb. We've worked with her quite a bit but couldn't get her to the point of walking with slack in the leash. She's doing much better with this after this past week of training. And yes, I agree the humans need training too. That's why we met with the trainer on Friday. I've been working with her this weekend and she needs some more work, but I see the progress. And I will meet with the trainer a couple times next week to make sure that I am on track too.
I was just freaked out by the melt down Friday night and she acted a bit odd when we got home, and she had some teeth chattering while she was sleeping Friday night, but I think she was just over tired.
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy4scraps on Oct 22, 2018 3:00:21 GMT
With this additional information, I would suggest looking into a Gentle Leader head collar for the dog. When the dog pulls, it pulls their head down in a way they don’t like without choking the dog. It’s the only kind of collar we can use to walk our bigger dog because he normally pulls so much, but with the Gentle Leader he will heel much better. Gentle Leader |
|
|
|
Post by bwife on Oct 22, 2018 4:43:46 GMT
gmcwife1 - she's not pulling to the point where she can pull me over but she gets super excited and pulls to the point it is making herself cough and gag. It's dumb. We've worked with her quite a bit but couldn't get her to the point of walking with slack in the leash. She's doing much better with this after this past week of training. And yes, I agree the humans need training too. That's why we met with the trainer on Friday. I've been working with her this weekend and she needs some more work, but I see the progress. And I will meet with the trainer a couple times next week to make sure that I am on track too. I was just freaked out by the melt down Friday night and she acted a bit odd when we got home, and she had some teeth chattering while she was sleeping Friday night, but I think she was just over tired. our doxie does the same thing. if you walk him with out the pinch/prong collar he is dumb and chokes himself because he is pulling so hard. With the collar he walks normal and the leash actually hangs loose. he only had to pull on the leash 1 time to know that the collar didnt feel so comfortable on his neck. he is about 18 pounds, we got the one that fits him ( and you can actually take prongs off to make it more adjustable for your dogs size, we have ours so it hangs completely loose when they are not pulling) and it works great. no puking dog at the end of the walk. We also use this collar with our weim mix, because she is a total untrainable spaz. we have tried everything, this collar is the only thing that works when walking her on a leash. |
|
|
|
Post by Legacy Girl on Oct 22, 2018 6:00:26 GMT
I would suggest a trainer who uses positive training techniques. For me, the types of collars you've mentioned don't fall within that category.
|
|
peppermintpatty
Pearl Clutcher
Refupea #1345
Posts: 3,838
|
Post by peppermintpatty on Oct 22, 2018 11:11:24 GMT
I use a pinch collar on my 14 pound malti-poo. He was trained with it and only behaves with it on. If we put a regular leash on, he pulls and chokes himself silly. Those collars DO NOT hurt the dog, they keep the dog from hurting themselves. Regular collars can crush the windpipe if the dog pulls to hard. The pinch collar will pinch a bit and tell the dog not to pull. It's simple really and extremely effective. Those who say they are dangerous or don't work, don't know how to properly use them.
|
|
YooHoot
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,417
|
Post by YooHoot on Oct 22, 2018 11:36:16 GMT
Thanks for your responses. Yes, she is a Maltese/Yorkie mix so only like 11 pounds. Any time we took her out on her harness she would pull and end up making these gagging coughing noise. She does not do that with this collar. This is a Herm Springer collar. I think it is truly helping her, as she seems to be more well behaved. We also spoke to a family friend who trains dogs and told her the whole story and she said it seems like the trainer is a good one and that we are headed in the right direction. I think we will go back for another week of training. thanks! A harness doesn't go around their neck so I'm not sure how it's choking her, I wonder if you don't have the right size. We use a harness for my dog and an extendable leash. Sometimes he smells something good and I'll keep walking and he runs to catch up to me. It seems to wear him out and he can run a little too.
|
|
smartypants71
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,706
Location: Houston, TX
|
Post by smartypants71 on Oct 22, 2018 13:50:09 GMT
I use a pinch collar on my dog. He's a 100 lb GSD with a fat neck though. He doesn't pull normally, but I have to keep it on him for his leash aggression. He sees another dog or cat, and he'll get away from me otherwise. It's been a big help.
ETA: I do not use a prong collar. I use the Star Mark Training Collar
|
|
Montannie
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,486
Location: Big Sky Country
|
Post by Montannie on Oct 22, 2018 16:04:09 GMT
Our trainer called it "power steering." We've only used it in class a couple of times when the standard "choke" collar was ineffective. One sharp, quick pull on the leash got my 80 lbs German Shepherd's attention. He only needs to see the collar on a chair now! He remembers what he's supposed to do.
|
|
