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Post by mammajamma on Nov 13, 2018 4:58:18 GMT
Anyone a 2nd grade teacher or have experience with expectations on math st this level?
My DD attends a private Montessori. They have been encouraging over the last year an app called XtraMath for us to do at home. It’s timed math facts. It has been a struggle for my daughter to complete in 3 seconds as it is set by the teachers. I asked to switch to old fashioned paper tests as this computer program makes her nervous and didn’t seem a good measure of what she knows.
I’m having difficulty getting straight answers from the teachers - what is the expectations for speed and accuracy at this age as it relates to math facts?
This schools is pushing these facts. But I’m just not sure my DD will get it at 3 seconds any time soon and it feels like we are just getting frustrated and starting to question if there is a learning problem. (Teschers wishy washy on this too) But are we expecting to much out of her at this age??
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Post by elaine on Nov 13, 2018 5:04:22 GMT
I don’t think that switching to paper tests is the answer as everything is moving to computer administrated testing these days. What I would ask/push for is for unlimited time on the computer “tests.”
Since this is extra-curricular work, can she work online at the Kahn Academy instead? It is free and excellent for math at all levels.
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Post by mammajamma on Nov 13, 2018 5:07:08 GMT
The teachers told me I am welcome to go to a teacher supply store and find my own book. I’m sure they are open to Kahn academy. But my question is more - do other schools push this quick time at this age? She is in the 4-5 seconds per question time frame. Teachers said XtraMath can only be set to 3 seconds of 6 seconds. The later is a bit too long to measure if she is getting distracted.
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Post by elaine on Nov 13, 2018 5:10:20 GMT
No timed math facts in our county, other than a complete math test that must be completed in X amount of time. But my son never did anything like what you are describing and we have a very large, very well-funded and highly rated school district.
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seaexplore
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Post by seaexplore on Nov 13, 2018 5:12:46 GMT
Isn’t Montessori all about learning at their own pace and desire? Sounds a bit much.
My 2nd grader is a whiz at math. She can probably do addition/subtraction in 3 seconds each but not multiplication/division. How many problems is she supposed to be able to complete at that pace?
Are the facts addition/subtraction?
Why can they not set it at 6 seconds for the rest of the semester/trimester and see how she does?
FWIW I teach 7/8 math and science and the kids REALLY need to know their basics to be successful at that level.
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Post by cade387 on Nov 13, 2018 5:46:25 GMT
My son is in 2nd grade. He started on Xtramath in K. He was at the 3 second answer time since mid 1st grade. There is often the issue of the pressure causing him to get frustrated and then break into tears. In talking with other parents my son was not alone in that.
I get the idea of pushing math facts and agree it gets different (better?) results than he would have if I tested him. However, I dislike that he has most of his homework online (in math and reading). If we have a late night I do not like him having screen time right before bed.
As far as the expectation of time - in 1st about this far in he was expected to finish 30 problems as fast as possible. The grading had 3 options which matched their report card grading
1 min total / 2 sec each - P - performs above expectations 1 - 2 min total / 2 - 4 sec each - W - works at expectation 2:01 min total or higher - N - needs improvement, below expectations
By 1st grade fall it was for addition and by January it was was also subtraction. In Xtramath the progression is addition, subtraction, fast addition, fast subtraction, addition/subtraction mixed and then multiplication. Our 2nd grade teacher said that there is usually 1 or 2 kids on multiplication by Christmas, but the norm is more in Easter time. We shall see.
While I’m not a fan of watching him get so frustrated that he wants to throw the iPad across the room, I do think it is getting the desired result of time execution. I find the best approach is to focus with him that if he breaks a chain and loses his smiley faces it isn’t the end of the world. Then I let him do it without me near and stressing him out more.
He did have better success on the iPad just because of number entry. We paid the $5 for the app for ease, but you can still use your web browser on there for free. Using the keyboard numbers slowed him down a lot so we don’t push it for Xtramath and focus on keyboard usage in other classes.
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twinsmomfla99
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Post by twinsmomfla99 on Nov 13, 2018 8:14:13 GMT
Try games that will help her learn the facts. This s is purely memorization at this point, so 3 seconds is not that big a deal once she “knows” them; she just needs the practice to “know” them in the first place without worrying about speed. 1. War: played like the traditional card game but with only those cards that are included in her facts. Both players turn over a card, and the first to say the sum of the cards wins that pair (instead of the high card winning). 2. Play board games with number cubes instead of dice. That way she is doing the sum instead of counting dots. 3. Draw a calculator or phone keypad with sidewalk chalk. Hold up a flash card and have her “hopscotch” the numbers while saying the fact. “One plus nine is ten” while hopping (one foot or two) from number to number on the keypad. This can help kids who are kinesthetic learners. 4. Keep the app set at 6 until she is consistently getting facts correct at that speed. Once she is consistent, let her do a practice round set at 6, followed by a speed round at 3. 5. If using old-fashioned flash cards, always start with the whole deck of facts she is expected to know. Each one she gets correct goes into the discard pile. Then keep practicing with only the cards she still needs to know. 6. Is she an auditory learner? I haven’t used this program, but I know others that have: www.studyblue.com/study-tools. It lets you create Flashcards with audio so she can see and hear the facts as she practices. 7. You might also check out some homeschool message boards for more resources.
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Post by mammajamma on Nov 13, 2018 9:29:55 GMT
Thank you all. We have been doing XtraMath about 6 days a week for a year. Through the summer break. She took about 6 months to ‘pass’ the first section we were started on - anything that sums below 10. Since May, she worked on subtraction under 10. I have the purchased app for $5, but it is set up so the teachers control the settings so I can not change things myself. I have a parent section to see results. I just logged in and looked at the settings. It shows her in 1st grade. She is now in 2nd grade. Would that change the ability to move forward to more sections? It says Beginning Addition and Subtraction. My original question to the teachers was when were we ever going to be able to move on. It seemed like we were stuck and 3 seconds seems so fast for her to get the answer from her head to the keyboard.
After I asked for paper timed sheets, the teachers sent a stack of timed tests. They have 75 or 100 problems per sheet on them. They stated with subtraction under 10. Then jumped to minuends 13&14. I asked the teachers what happened to 10,11,12 and addition over 10?? They said they didn’t have a test with those facts, so I made my own! And I gave her the minuends 13&14 one time - the score was bad. Like 15% and took 13 min to complete. That’s when I realized that the timed tests were not doing anything to increase her fluency. They just tested her knowledge and I needed to help her work on the facts.
Then I had a conference with a teacher and she felt like we should try addition over 10. Last night, I gave her the first test in this section to see how she did - it was mixed numbers to 10 but could sum over 10. The test was 100 problems. She scored 96% accuracy. But took 8:22 to complete, which is 5 seconds per question. 100 questions at the same time seems like a lot though! She was in another room doing it quietly. But I wonder if she started getting mental fatigue. Should I keep her on this section for a few days and do other games and see if we can retest for a faster time? I may only give 50 questions next time.
But all this has me frustrated because I feel like I’m making these choices at home alone. Teachers just provided tests. But didn’t give clear goals, instructions or learning techniques to meet a goal. I am assuming they want near 3 seconds because that’s where XtraMath was set. The teachers tell me not to spend more than 20 min a day on math homework. But after we did the four 4 digit problems and one time test with a 100 problems, we have met that. And that didn’t leave time for actually working on fact work. I have been trying to up my parenting with math games too. I also have a 3 year old. I’m also trying to work on math 2-3 times a day for 15 min each time so it’s not like we sit for an hour straight.
My husband is telling me I’m thinking way too black or white. I just want goals! This Montessori school does not give grades. So I don’t know where they find the sense of mastery.
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anaterra
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Post by anaterra on Nov 13, 2018 9:54:50 GMT
I can remember waayyyyy back and 1st thing in math class was a sheet with a lot of problems and you answered as many as fast... I dont know how fast that can be with a computer... I'm sorry your daughter is feeling the struggle... I like a lot of what twinsmomfla99 suggested
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Post by shescrafty on Nov 13, 2018 11:27:52 GMT
I teach K but have taught 3rd grade as well. I will be honest that 5 seconds to answer a basic math fact (even up to 20) means that she doesn’t know the fact and is probably doing some tapping or something else to get her answe. We used to do “mad minutes” (which are frowned upon now) but they were usually 50 or so problems in a minute.
The suggestions given above are great! I am wondering what they are doing to teach her math at school as the timed tests seem to go against what Montessori typically is about. Are they doing formal math instruction or is is self-driven? I wonder if they started this program because parents wanted kids to learn their basic facts and it isn’t really done in Montessori settings ?
I have had 2 students come to my classroom from Montessori and neither of them were ready for the academic OR independent aspect of our public school, which really surprised me. My friend’s son was in Montessori and went to public for 2nd grade and wasn’t ready for the demands so she moved him back to Montessori. He told her that he didn’t like to do work he didn’t like and didn’t want to do homework. As she was going through a divorce she didn’t want him frustrated at school so she moved him back.
I think I would ask the same watchers what they do in class to teach math and teach these facts. The expectations they have for time doesn’t seem to match your child right now so aside from giving You worksheets at home, what are they doing in class?
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Post by *sprout* on Nov 13, 2018 12:01:48 GMT
My 5th grade dd uses XtraMath. It has helped her tremendously!
The 3 seconds is simply the default set by XtraMath. It can be changed. The longest is 6 seconds.
My dd struggled with the 3 sec the first time around. She had lots of anxiety solving the problem and trying correctly on the computer keyboard. If she told me the answer and I typed it, she could do the 3 seconds.
I talked to her teacher and he upped her time to 6 seconds. It made a world of difference. She completed her addition/subtraction and multiplication/division facts on the 6 seconds. Now that she's completed all of them, her teacher is having her go back through the mult/div facts on 3 seconds. There is no anxiety this time and she's mastering them all!
Talk to her teacher and have her time increased to 6 seconds.
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SabrinaP
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Post by SabrinaP on Nov 13, 2018 12:05:36 GMT
What are you doing at home to learn the facts? She shouldn’t just be testing. I suggest you use flash cards and quiz her. She needs automaticity with her facts. I teach 6th grade and see the struggle the kids have who never leaned their math facts.
If you look on Amazon, there are many games you can use at home to learn her facts. If she feels more confident that she knows her facts cold, she will do better on the timed tests.
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paigepea
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Post by paigepea on Nov 13, 2018 12:05:54 GMT
Both of my girls started timed tests in grade 4 and they were multiplication. One dd was slow and I was asked to practice at home with flash cards and multiplication war with cards. It comes naturally to my other dd.
They both used paper - not computers. I think computers are better. On paper everyone seems to know how everyone else is doing. Maybe it’s more private on computers?
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J u l e e
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Post by J u l e e on Nov 13, 2018 12:13:20 GMT
I am questioning the Montessori in your Montessori school. I am Montessori trained and my daughter attended a private Montessori school from Age 4 to the end of Grade 8. I don't know about the relevancy or place that timed math facts have in the curriculum of traditional schools, but it isn't something that fits with the philosophy of a Montessori school at all. I think if you want to practice speed and accuracy of facts with games like the ones suggested above at home together, that's one thing. But pushing this as part of a requirement of curriculum at a Montessori school doesn't make much sense. I'm wondering how much they are still working with concrete objects (bank, stamp game, bead box, bead frames) at her level.
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Post by monklady123 on Nov 13, 2018 13:18:47 GMT
I teach K but have taught 3rd grade as well. I will be honest that 5 seconds to answer a basic math fact (even up to 20) means that she doesn’t know the fact and is probably doing some tapping or something else to get her answe. We used to do “mad minutes” (which are frowned upon now) but they were usually 50 or so problems in a minute. The suggestions given above are great! I am wondering what they are doing to teach her math at school as the timed tests seem to go against what Montessori typically is about. Are they doing formal math instruction or is is self-driven? I wonder if they started this program because parents wanted kids to learn their basic facts and it isn’t really done in Montessori settings ? I have had 2 students come to my classroom from Montessori and neither of them were ready for the academic OR independent aspect of our public school, which really surprised me. My friend’s son was in Montessori and went to public for 2nd grade and wasn’t ready for the demands so she moved him back to Montessori. He told her that he didn’t like to do work he didn’t like and didn’t want to do homework. As she was going through a divorce she didn’t want him frustrated at school so she moved him back. I think I would ask the same watchers what they do in class to teach math and teach these facts. The expectations they have for time doesn’t seem to match your child right now so aside from giving You worksheets at home, what are they doing in class? I've seen several kids come to our 2nd grade from Montessori and they were totally not up to the academics of our public school. So I wonder if that's where this timed math thing is coming from....maybe the school has had feedback from parents who switched their kids to a regular classroom and those kids were behind the standards of the public school? Anyway... OP, in our school system the real timed math doesn't begin until 3rd grade. Then they have a page of math problems, either addition or subtraction, and they get a certain amount of time to finish the entire page. It's all paper and pencil. I've subbed a lot in Montessori classrooms (as the assistant, not the teacher, since I'm not Montessori trained) and I've never seen any timed math tests of any kind.
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AmandaA
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Post by AmandaA on Nov 13, 2018 13:25:30 GMT
Just wanted to say I feel your pain. We used Xtra math (as an optional tool) in K and 1st and my son hated it. He knew the answers, but the extra time it took to locate the correct key and make sure his finger hit the correct one was often an issue. And once he got one wrong it would frustrate him and he would fall behind on the next question because he was stewing over the miss and so on. It completely killed his confidence. If it is required, I would continue to work on it but make sure your child understands that it is just one tool. Like others have suggested, find other ways to practice, gain the knowledge, and feel successful to build that confidence. That is the goal after all, to gain the knowledge not just to beat the annoying teacher in xtra math. We are at a new school this year and there is no timed math (but he has already mastered his addition and subtraction facts) which is making it all the more enjoyable for both of us.
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Post by mammajamma on Nov 13, 2018 13:52:25 GMT
Thanks, peas! I few answers to more recent questions.
We have been doing lots of different things to work on the facts. Because, yes, I agree the tests don’t do much to LEARN the facts. Just tests where we are at. 1) She made her own flash cards while saying out loud what she was writing. She wrote it horizontal and stacked both. 2) writing ten times and saying out loud facts that she misses 3) car quizzes 4) family game of monopoly. She must count dice and she is calculating the change for the banker. 5) Mobi game 6) we use an abacus to work some to get her to visualize quicker what is needed to get to 10. She really responds well to the beads because of her Montessori teaching
At school, they don’t do the timed tests. It’s for parents at home. Some parents are pretty resistant and not as dedicated as we have been with them. She is doing small bead frame, large bead frame. And the recently moved her to stamp game for multiplication at school. Saying perhaps she will connect the dots better if we still work on addition / subtraction facts at home.
My niece is a 5th grader at a public school at is stumbling w math much because her facts were not strong. I do see the importance of the facts. And can continue to work on speed. I’m just questioning what speed is appropriate for 2nd grade? And can we move up to numbers greater than 10 before we get all below ten under 3 seconds? (Like 8+7)
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Post by threegirls on Nov 13, 2018 14:09:56 GMT
Anyone a 2nd grade teacher or have experience with expectations on math st this level? My DD attends a private Montessori. They have been encouraging over the last year an app called XtraMath for us to do at home. It’s timed math facts. It has been a struggle for my daughter to complete in 3 seconds as it is set by the teachers. I asked to switch to old fashioned paper tests as this computer program makes her nervous and didn’t seem a good measure of what she knows. I’m having difficulty getting straight answers from the teachers - what is the expectations for speed and accuracy at this age as it relates to math facts? This schools is pushing these facts. But I’m just not sure my DD will get it at 3 seconds any time soon and it feels like we are just getting frustrated and starting to question if there is a learning problem. (Teschers wishy washy on this too) But are we expecting to much out of her at this age?? If you do suspect a learning problem, get her tested sooner rather than later. I don't know how your private school and district work but in mine the public school district does the testing even if your child goes to a private school. My school district dragged their feet on testing my middle daughter. They kept saying to wait, wait, wait. I knew inside something wasn't right. I kept requesting the testing and kept getting shot down. They finally tested her at the end of third grade. When my youngest started school I was seeing the same learning difficulties in her. We had had enough of the public system and I took her to Children's Hospital to have her tested. Both girls are now at a school for children with dyslexia and both are doing great! They have timed math facts at their school although the pressure isn't the same as at their old school. They use a method called Mastering Math Facts. I know I'm not answering your original question but since you mentioned the questioning of a learning problem I thought I'd mention testing. If you have a serious feeling about a learning problem, get her tested. It won't hurt to do it.
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breetheflea
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Post by breetheflea on Nov 13, 2018 14:30:37 GMT
I have heard of X-tra math, I can't remember if my kids school used it at some point. There are so many programs and each teacher seemed to prefer a different one... I do know my 6th grader's (middle school) math teacher this year had to change/add a unit to her curriculum because half her class didn't know their times tables up to 12 by 12... I learned those in 3rd grade! So someone or something is not working with all these online math programs.
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Post by shutterbug2sue on Nov 13, 2018 17:33:33 GMT
My son used XtraMath in third & fourth grades for math facts. He started with addition, then subtraction, then multiplication as he showed mastery of each set. The program had a memory and would keep testing on facts (in rotation) that were not able to be finished in the time frame. So once they learned the fact it would rotate through others. Once all the facts were mastered, the teacher usually set the time down to 3 seconds and the student repeats it. Students were told to use it 5 minutes a day only and the program timed out so the student couldn't use it repeatedly.
It was a tool used to reinforce the facts but was not used as the sole way to learn. For my son, it was not a great fit to practice math facts.
One teacher told me the best way to learn math facts is flashcards and that worked better for my son. A box of flashcards runs about $10 and can be found in many stores. Or you can make your own with stiff paper...
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Post by 950nancy on Nov 13, 2018 17:45:25 GMT
The teachers told me I am welcome to go to a teacher supply store and find my own book. I’m sure they are open to Kahn academy. But my question is more - do other schools push this quick time at this age? She is in the 4-5 seconds per question time frame. Teachers said XtraMath can only be set to 3 seconds of 6 seconds. The later is a bit too long to measure if she is getting distracted. Some kids just get stressed with timed activities. The teachers are pushing for 3 seconds because 6 seconds gives kids time to count on their fingers or do whatever it is they need to get the answer. Three seconds is better for knowing if a child has memorized her facts and not using counting. If my kid was struggling with this, I would spend more time finding way to practice facts that aren't on the computer or paper. Have her look at a license plate and add or subtract the first two numbers, go back and forth and have her tell you two numbers and then you tell her. Make sure you give her the wrong answer now and then so she has to figure out the answer also. When you are in the kitchen, use numbers such as degrees, cups, or servings to practice facts. I know you can find math facts for free online. You could also have her make flashcards. Maybe buy a set of flashcards and give her three seconds to answer each card. If she can do it in three seconds (count in your head) give her the card. If not, you keep the card. Count the number she gets in three seconds and keep a tally so she can see that practicing for speed is helping her card count. Kids in second grade really seem to do better with adult interaction rather than just a computer if they are hindered by speed.
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Post by JustCallMeMommy on Nov 13, 2018 17:49:42 GMT
Other than the computer part, this actually seems a little old fashioned to me. DD(16) was never drilled on her math facts, and she would have been much better off, IMO, if she was. I know this is awful now, and you definitely don't want her to end up feeling like she isn't good at math, but being able to do simple addition and subtraction (and soon multiplication and division) quickly and accurately will be a good thing when she gets a little older.
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Post by 950nancy on Nov 13, 2018 17:57:34 GMT
Other than the computer part, this actually seems a little old fashioned to me. DD(16) was never drilled on her math facts, and she would have been much better off, IMO, if she was. I know this is awful now, and you definitely don't want her to end up feeling like she isn't good at math, but being able to do simple addition and subtraction (and soon multiplication and division) quickly and accurately will be a good thing when she gets a little older. Yes, good math instruction involves some memorization for sure. It was so very painful to teach long division and fractions to ten year olds who had to add 7 + 6 on their fingers. I just kept telling kids that memorizing math facts is no different that learning the sounds of your letters. Without knowing them, it takes forever to solve a problem.
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Post by mrsscrapdiva on Nov 13, 2018 18:01:22 GMT
Last year, my son's 2nd grade teacher had this as a extra homework recommendation. We never did it. We did other worksheets, other online math games and good ole flash cards.
I am not a big supporter of the timed math (rocket math, minute math etc). And also the timed reading program Reading Plus. My older son used to get so frustrated with both of these programs. They do this in the public school also.
Everyone learns and remembers differently. Some kids just aren't good with timed practice sheets or computer games or the countdown just stresses them out too much.
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Post by snugglebutter on Nov 13, 2018 18:57:23 GMT
How fast is she if you quiz her orally? For some kids the hang up is more about writing or using the computer. Sum Swamp - this is a great game for practicing math that is NOT speed based. It's very popular in our house.
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Post by 950nancy on Nov 13, 2018 20:07:12 GMT
Last year, my son's 2nd grade teacher had this as a extra homework recommendation. We never did it. We did other worksheets, other online math games and good ole flash cards. I am not a big supporter of the timed math (rocket math, minute math etc). And also the timed reading program Reading Plus. My older son used to get so frustrated with both of these programs. They do this in the public school also. Everyone learns and remembers differently. Some kids just aren't good with timed practice sheets or computer games or the countdown just stresses them out too much. I agree that it stressed kids out, but fluency in facts and reading are good things to practice because they will be taking timed tests for the next 10+ years (SAT, ACT, and state tests). I have a very pokey reader who had a 4.45 GPA and struggled with the reading portion of his ACT. It did matter.
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RosieKat
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Post by RosieKat on Nov 13, 2018 20:24:42 GMT
My DD had to deal with the timed tests in 1st and 2nd grade. It was not a good thing for her. I suspect that school would have continued that at least into 4th grade, but we chose to find a new school for her. (That was not the reason why, although it was one tiny contributor.) She did ultimately test as having dyscalculia (basically, math dyslexia) and is in 6th grade now. She can understand the concepts, but the basic "math facts" continue to make things hard for her. Apparently that's a common problem if you have dyscalulia - you can get the concepts but not the memorized facts.
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