kate
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Jun 26, 2014 3:30:05 GMT
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Post by kate on Dec 4, 2018 3:35:29 GMT
I'm quite used to the glottal stop used for the Ts in "important" (so it sounds like impor'n'). What grates me quite irrationally is the pronunciation "imporden" - I don't know why. This video does a great job of explaining different T sounds in "neutral" American accents. I will say that here in NYC, the last category (where the T sound is dropped altogether in some situations) rarely applies. If you say the word "center" in much of the country, it sounds like "senner," but here we give that T a good, hard kick. "cenTer" LOL
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Dec 4, 2018 3:40:27 GMT
I just said it a few times and it came out as... "Im port ent" as opposed to "im port ant". I seem to say "ent" instead of "ant". I think this is me as well. Jenna Bush Hagar pronounces the T with a D (impordint) and it drives me crazy. I was wondering if that is a Texas thing?
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Dec 4, 2018 3:42:03 GMT
Dropping the t is a regional thing in the south. You can criticize, but we're making fun of your "hoose" or "pahk" too, depending on where you live. I have no idea what words you are trying to say/spell here.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Dec 4, 2018 3:46:04 GMT
impour-unt If I hear a hard "t" in there I assume the person is British. That's very interesting - for me it is the opposite. If I heard "im-por-unt" without the T I would assume the person was British! Most people I know IRL from London and surrounding areas (think Cockney) all drop their Ts. I only hear British people on tv, but when I hear the word spoken in my mind with a British accent, it would be said without a t.
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AmeliaBloomer
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Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Dec 4, 2018 4:00:08 GMT
Guilty as charged. I don’t pronounce the middle /t/ in IMPORTANT, MITTEN, WATER. I either skip it or substitute a kindasorta consonant which is not a voiced /d/ but not quite a /t/. We need Jili to remind me what that is called. Ironically, lazyAmericansloppydiction speaker that I am, I have nothing but contempt for people I hear on TV who say “im-POR- dint.” If, like me, they say “im-POR-int,” with that weird kinda sound/stop in the middle, they pass muster. LOL. (But don't be thinking this Chicagoan says “Da Bears.” I have full command of my /th/s, thank you.) You rang? LOL. I believe you're talking about a glottal stop. I'm going to copy & paste an internet response to this because I think it's a good one-- very comprehensive, fairly understandable to the layperson, and much better than I can type up at this time of night when I'm not feeling all that great and I'm trying to do work for my job. I didn't write this, so I take no credit for it: There are several allophones of /t/ in American English. Allophones are different versions of the same sound that occur in different contexts. Aspirated /t/: This occurs at the beginning of a word or a stressed syllable within the word. The air pressure is built up and then released in a big burst. Some examples include “tie” and “Italian.” Unaspirated /t/: This occurs in a blend with /s/. In words like “star” and “stop,” the /t/ is unaspirated. This can make it sound like /d/ to some listeners. Glottal stop: In the middle of words like “button” and “mitten,” the /t/ is pronounced as a glottal stop in some regions of the US. On TV, I’ve heard people from the UK use a glottal stop in words like “tattoo” and “Saturday,” but in the US I only hear it before a syllabic /n/. Alveolar flap: In the middle of words like “matter” and “writer,” we use a flap which some people will hear as a /d/. For me, the words “ladder” and “latter” sound the same. A flap can also occur when the word “to” is unstressed in a phrase, as in “go to work.” Alveolar nasal flap: This is why “winter” and “winner” sound the same in some dialects. See? I knew there was a reason we kept you around here. Yep, that’s what I do. I stop. Glottaly.
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Post by jemmls4 on Dec 4, 2018 4:00:25 GMT
Sloppy
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Post by hop2 on Dec 4, 2018 4:03:34 GMT
impour-unt If I hear a hard "t" in there I assume the person is British. Hmmm I’ve never really heard it without the t in the middle.
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Post by hop2 on Dec 4, 2018 4:08:14 GMT
Although they skip the t in Saturday in Philly so maybe they do in things like important as well and I’ve never taken notice. It’s damn hard to miss in ‘sah erday’ though
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Post by ntsf on Dec 4, 2018 4:32:47 GMT
im por tent
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AmeliaBloomer
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Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Dec 4, 2018 4:45:13 GMT
Okay. But if everybody where one lives pronounces a word the same way, is it then mass collective sloppiness when everybody grows up naturally mimicking the way their family and community speaks? Doesn’t there need to be intention to be sloppy...like sloppy compared to a better available standard? Instead, linguists would call it dialect. Anecdote: My son started pronouncing his T’s when he lived in Germany so German English learners would understand him better, especially if they had learned British English. He wouldn’t have described himself as sloppy before. In both instances, he reacted to his environment. He adapted to the default pronunciations as represented in each community. Tomato, tomahto. (See what I did there?)
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Post by peano on Dec 4, 2018 4:48:43 GMT
Dropped consonants drive me crazy. winner instead of winter twenny for twenty cenner for center innernet There used to be a Weather Channel meteorologist who pronounced thunderstorm as "thunnerstorm" and because of how rage-y it made me, I stopped watching the channel. The glottal stop phenomenon is common to part of Connecticut, namely the New Britain area, which is, of course, pronounced New Bri-in.
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Post by vpohlman on Dec 4, 2018 4:55:34 GMT
It's the Alveolar Stop right here! That's my deal! And nearly everyone I know. If I heard it pronounced with a crisp t I'd think it was weird. However when sung it needs to be crisp!
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Post by Zee on Dec 4, 2018 6:55:30 GMT
I don't presume to call others' pronunciations "lazy" just because they're not the same as mine. It's a minor detail. Did you still understand what they were saying? Then move on--it ain't that serious, son.
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Post by scrappintoee on Dec 4, 2018 8:02:39 GMT
OP .... I pronounce it : im por tint Jili.... that info was SO interesting* ; are you a linguist, speech pathologist, or ....? *..... I pronounce it “in TRIST ing ” others say “in ter est ing” , and I hear many “ iNNer esting” pretty often. I agree with those who say a lot of it is regional, not lazy. I’ve always loved words, accents, etc. Many peeps I know pronounce pecan as PEE KON, whereas I say PI CAHN ..... I always assumed it’s more about where we’re from. AmeliaBloomer.... Thaaaanx, now that song is stuck on my mind....” pa TAY toe , pa TAH toe.... let’s call the whole thing off! 😀🎼🎹 ————————————————- (slight highjack) ** To all the UK peAps** ....This girl originally from the Washington, DC area LOVES your accents!!!! I *think* I can sound authentically British, but I can BARELY do an Australian or Irish accent. I just love all of them all ! My Dad & brother can imitate ANY accent; it is truly amazing! My Dad’s best imitations are many different British accents, but we’re the most entertained by the way he can sound JUST LIKE someone from India and The Netherlands.
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anniebygaslight
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Jun 28, 2014 14:08:19 GMT
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Post by anniebygaslight on Dec 4, 2018 8:05:57 GMT
That's very interesting - for me it is the opposite. If I heard "im-por-unt" without the T I would assume the person was British! Most people I know IRL from London and surrounding areas (think Cockney) all drop their Ts. I only hear British people on tv, but when I hear the word spoken in my mind with a British accent, it would be said without a t. The glottal stop is a regional accent thing in the UK. Up north we would pronounce the 't'.
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Post by gar on Dec 4, 2018 8:25:03 GMT
Spongemom Scrappants and AussieMeg - I think there's still a element of speaking 'nicely' or 'lazily', with the regional allowances in there too. I was brought up to 'sound my Ts' and although I don't speak like the Queen I do have probably a typical Home Counties accent and will sound the t in important - I think!
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Post by AussieMeg on Dec 4, 2018 10:06:49 GMT
Spongemom Scrappants and AussieMeg - I think there's still a element of speaking 'nicely' or 'lazily', with the regional allowances in there too. I was brought up to 'sound my Ts' and although I don't speak like the Queen I do have probably a typical Home Counties accent and will sound the t in important - I think! We have recently employed a delightful English girl who is here on a work/holiday visa. I was talking to her about this topic at lunchtime today, after reading this thread. She comes from Reading and she speaks ever so well. She said she lives just down the road from Theresa May when she's not at 10 Downing Street, and that while most people in Reading would never drop their Ts, there are still some chavs around who do. Hey, her words not mine! I used to work with a guy who grew up in the UK and still had a full on cockney accent, and wouldn't know a 'T' if he fell over it. One of my colleagues asked him (perhaps quite rudely) why he pronounced his TH as F (free instead of three, wiv instead of with etc). He told her that he used to speak "proper English" but when he and his family moved to another part of the UK when he was a teenager, he started talking like that to fit in with all the other boys. Then it became so ingrained that that's how he speaks to this day.
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joelise
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Jul 1, 2014 6:33:14 GMT
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Post by joelise on Dec 4, 2018 10:42:34 GMT
Spongemom Scrappants and AussieMeg - I think there's still a element of speaking 'nicely' or 'lazily', with the regional allowances in there too. I was brought up to 'sound my Ts' and although I don't speak like the Queen I do have probably a typical Home Counties accent and will sound the t in important - I think! I used to work with a guy who grew up in the UK and still had a full on cockney accent, and wouldn't know a 'T' if he fell over it. One of my colleagues asked him (perhaps quite rudely) why he pronounced his TH as F (free instead of three, wiv instead of with etc). He told her that he used to speak "proper English" but when he and his family moved to another part of the UK when he was a teenager, he started talking like that to fit in with all the other boys. Then it became so ingrained that that's how he speaks to this day. My accent is all over the place for the same reason! I was born in Nottingham in the Midlands and moved to Cumbria in the north when I was 3. At school my accent was made fun of so I unconsciously changed it so I wasn’t mocked. But I used my Nottingham accent at home! I’ve lived in many places since and my accent has changed depending on where I lived. People are always asking me where I’m from, I give them a brief history and it’s not until I finally say that I was born in Nottingham do they finally say “ahh yes that’s it”. The hardest place to be understood was when I lived in New York. I asked for a bottle of water about five times and wasn’t understood. When I said “warder” they finally understood! I think I pronounce the t in important when I’m speaking to someone “important” but when I’m jabbering on with my family and friends I drop the t!
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Deleted
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Jun 2, 2024 11:11:26 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2018 10:54:55 GMT
I pronounce the t in important but it's not important to me if other people don't.
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Deleted
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Jun 2, 2024 11:11:26 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2018 10:56:48 GMT
Spongemom Scrappants and AussieMeg - I think there's still a element of speaking 'nicely' or 'lazily', with the regional allowances in there too. I was brought up to 'sound my Ts' and although I don't speak like the Queen I do have probably a typical Home Counties accent and will sound the t in important - I think! I agree gar accepting a cockney ( typical London) accent as a general British accent is not correct. Most people, if they speak " properly" in Britain pronounce the t in important. It's considered lazy to not do so. General British pronunciation of English words shouldn't be confused by regional accent. There are some correct pronunciation of a silent t's in the English language as in listen, glisten, Christmas and castle, to name a few but important is not one of them.
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Post by Merge on Dec 4, 2018 11:32:33 GMT
Dropping the t is a regional thing in the south. You can criticize, but we're making fun of your "hoose" or "pahk" too, depending on where you live. I have no idea what words you are trying to say/spell here. Hoose = house, in the northern midwest. Pahk = park, in New York, Boston, etc.
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Post by Merge on Dec 4, 2018 11:35:08 GMT
Okay. But if everybody where one lives pronounces a word the same way, is it then mass collective sloppiness when everybody grows up naturally mimicking the way their family and community speaks? Doesn’t there need to be intention to be sloppy...like sloppy compared to a better available standard? Instead, linguists would call it dialect. Anecdote: My son started pronouncing his T’s when he lived in Germany so German English learners would understand him better, especially if they had learned British English. He wouldn’t have described himself as sloppy before. In both instances, he reacted to his environment. He adapted to the default pronunciations as represented in each community. Tomato, tomahto. (See what I did there?) Code-switching. It's a thing.
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Dalai Mama
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Jun 26, 2014 0:31:31 GMT
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Post by Dalai Mama on Dec 4, 2018 11:57:37 GMT
Good freaking gravy - dialectal variations aren’t lazy or sloppy, they’re just variations. And while some of them can be a bit annoying to some people (don’t get me started on those of you who skip the first r in February), some of these variations go back centuries.
FTR, I use a glottal stop in important, button, and mitten. I don’t pronounce the t at all in often, schedule starts the same way as schlep, and when I’m talking to my people, boy will always be “b’y”.
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Post by Merge on Dec 4, 2018 12:43:38 GMT
Good freaking gravy - dialectal variations aren’t lazy or sloppy, they’re just variations. And while some of them can be a bit annoying to some people (don’t get me started on those of you who skip the first r in February), some of these variations go back centuries. FTR, I use a glottal stop in important, button, and mitten. I don’t pronounce the t at all in often, schedule starts the same way as schlep, and when I’m talking to my people, boy will always be “b’y”. I was just coming back to say - and please know that I don't mean this as a handslap to anyone - that I wonder if referring negatively to others' dialectal variations is perhaps a form of "othering" that we could leave behind. Most of us would choose not to criticize speakers of Standard Black English, or my Indian students who are native English speakers but whose English sounds quite different from mine. Regional differences in spoken English are no different. They don't need to be corrected and, if they drive you "crazy," that's not the fault of the person who speaks that way, in my opinion.
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AmeliaBloomer
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Dec 4, 2018 16:28:52 GMT
Code-switching. It's a thing. Meandering recovered memory alert: I once went to a code switching (they called it “register”) workshop for sign language interpreters. So, this will be more about linguistic code switching that dialect/pronunciation code switching: There’s a sign in American Sign Language. Basically, the sign’s intention is a strong rejection of the person you sign it to or rejection of what the other person just said. But it definitely can’t be transliterated. It’s not English cause it’s not English. But interpreting it is rather fraught. There was an impassioned (talk about emotion...) discussion about how to voice that sign when interpreting for a signer, depending on the setting, situation, prevailing emotion in the room, and how well you know the Deaf client and his typical register use/code switching. The reason the discussion was so impassioned was a very typical way to voice this sign would simply be “Fuck off.” But it doesn’t literally mean that. In certain situations the Deaf client could expect the interpreter to voice a fervent “No way” or the figurative “Get Out!” because he’s in a business meeting. On the other hand, he might actually want the “Fuck off” voiced no matter where he is. The point is it’s already complicated enough to code switch for yourself. It’s your brain controlling your language choices. It becomes dangerusly fraught when you make language decisions for a client. It becomes anxiety-ridden when you open your mouth as a professional interpreter at a meeting and voice “Fuck off!” Sorry. Hard to resist that story. It’s such a stark example. Back to pronunciation code switching: I will probably never ever put a real /t/ in “water” or “important.” It’s just too uncommon here. I do, however, code switch from “J’wanna” to “Do you wanna” to the rare “Do you wan t to” if I think I need to sound extra special fancy. Or when I’m in Europe. LOL. Fascinating, innit?
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Post by disneypal on Dec 4, 2018 16:51:02 GMT
Me too! The same is true for the word button, which I often hear pronounced "buh-un"
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valincal
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Southern Alberta
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Jun 27, 2014 2:21:22 GMT
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Post by valincal on Dec 4, 2018 17:05:49 GMT
Me too! The same is true for the word button, which I often hear pronounced "buh-un" That’s exactly what I mean. And I’ve only ever heard young Amerricans on reality TV or Instagram stories speak like this so I wasn’t aware it was a regional dialect. Now that I know I won’t let it bother me. 😉😄
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AmeliaBloomer
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Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Dec 4, 2018 18:01:24 GMT
Cracking up.
I have so much meandering story time on my hands today cause I’m at the hospital playing Toe Tapping Family Member. (Surgery on my husband's wrist.)
I’m at a major Chicago teaching hospital - a professional setting. In the past two hours, I have had occasion to hear four RNs, a hand surgeon, an anesthesiologist, and two residents say the word “water” to us while either offering it or giving post-surgical instructions. Not one of them, even the one with the Caribbean accent, put a real /t/ in the word. Everything was a variation of WAWder.
If my husband weren’t so groggy, he’d be wondering why I keep asking leading questions about his fluid intake...
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Post by Spongemom Scrappants on Dec 4, 2018 18:29:57 GMT
I was just coming back to say - and please know that I don't mean this as a handslap to anyone - that I wonder if referring negatively to others' dialectal variations is perhaps a form of "othering" that we could leave behind. Most of us would choose not to criticize speakers of Standard Black English, or my Indian students who are native English speakers but whose English sounds quite different from mine. Regional differences in spoken English are no different. They don't need to be corrected and, if they drive you "crazy," that's not the fault of the person who speaks that way, in my opinion. While I appreciate the observation, I do think it's off the mark. I 'hear' the glottal stop in speakers all across the spectrum of any measurement you might use -- regional, racial, age, gender, socioeconomic status, and more. BUT, I do seem to be hearing it more. My point is that I think there is a slide toward less precise pronunciation of words across all speakers. It's similar to the rise in uptalk and the increasing use of vocal fry that we hear these days. It seems there an overall shift in language and what I'm calling 'sloppy pronunciation' is a part of that. I do, however, code switch from “J’wanna” to “Do you wanna” to the rare “Do you wan t to” if I think I need to sound extra special fancy. I hear myself do something similar. I slur a phrase like "I don't won't to" into something more like, "I-on wanna." I have been trying to consciously stop because I hear myself speaking that way more and more.
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Post by leftturnonly on Dec 4, 2018 18:38:41 GMT
If my husband weren’t so groggy, he’d be wondering why I keep asking leading questions about his fluid intake... My point is that I think there is a slide toward less precise pronunciation of words across all speakers. Yeah, but I think it's just an evolutionary process. We've been doing a great job of bastardizing the Queens' English for hundreds of years already. Why would we do anything else now?
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