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Post by crazy4scraps on Dec 6, 2018 15:45:09 GMT
Ugh. Buckle up, this could get long. Ten years or so ago, MIL hired a contractor to lift the cabin and have a new foundation built underneath because the existing foundation was crumbling. We’ll call this company ABC Construction. Ten years go by, she passed away, we now own it and want to renovate the old, original part of the cabin and build new on top of the newish foundation. To do this, we hired a different contractor, XYZ Construction to do the work in part because ABC is known in the area for making promises that aren’t delivered, taking forever to pay their subcontractors, etc. We had attempted to get an estimate from ABC to do the work just to have something to compare prices, and he never even got back to us with a quote even after telling us we had waited long enough and would be put right at the top of the list so to speak. The XYZ guy did get us a quote, was always timely and came highly recommended, so when XYZ called us and said they had an opening for this winter, we jumped on it and hired him. Anyway, in the process of demolishing the old part of the cabin, the current contractor discovered that ABC didn’t install proper flashing up and under the siding on the existing cabin walls and as a result, water had seeped in over the last ten years running down underneath the rock siding on the new foundation, causing significant rot and mold damage to the floor joists, the sheathing, sheet rock, etc. Fixing this damage is going to cost somewhere in the neighborhood of an additional $40-50K on top of what was already a really expensive project. 😭 It’s literally a situation like one of those shows you see on HGTV where the remodeling contractor opens up the wall and says, “Whoa! What the heck is THIS?” None of the damage was obvious from the outside or inside until the old cabin and the deck were taken down. We were very lucky that it didn’t collapse. DH contacted our insurance company but they said that because it wasn’t the result of a single “event” it isn’t something they would cover and that we should contact ABC’s insurance company. Well, the owner of ABC won’t tell DH which insurance company they use because he doesn’t want to have a claim to be processed against them, and effectively told DH that if we would have hired him to do the job, he would have just fixed the damage and absorbed any additional cost. DH said, “You had an opportunity to bid the job and never even got back to me with a quote, so we hired the other guy.” At this point, we have a more than half demolished cabin that we could barely afford the planned renovation to begin with that is now going to be significantly more money to finish (and by ‘finish’, we are talking basic sheet rock, electrical, roof, windows and doors, plumbing, HVAC; no flooring, paint, cabinets, light fixtures, interior trim finishes or anything else, literally a sheet rock shell). DH thinks that the statute of limitations to sue ABC is six years, which would have ended 3-4 years ago. Our new contractor is trying to figure out the most cost effective way to fix it, but the guy isn’t running a charity so it’s going to cost us. We’re also going to have to completely empty out and remove all the downstairs kitchen and bathroom cabinets and all the rest of our furniture and belongings out of the formerly finished lower level because it will now have to have all the ceilings taken down, the lake side front wall removed and it will basically need to be gutted too to replace the rotted floor joists between the two levels. So that means paying for a storage unit for at least six months on top of bringing even more cabin stuff home to our house, and moving stuff through the snow and up an icy hill now that the exterior timber stairs up to the driveway are gone. In short, we just really don’t know what to do. We don’t know what our legal options are. We have involved our attorney but even he isn’t sure what we can do because it’s in a different state from where we live. We can’t leave it the way it is, and to finish it even to the bare standards we were planning to would totally wipe out our retirement fund. Borrowing any additional money for this is not an option. We are praying that when it’s all done we won’t have to sell it because we can’t afford it. This cabin has been in his family for almost 50 years. Sigh. If you’ve made it this far, thank you for bearing with me to get this all out. I can’t believe that a company can build something that badly and then be able to just walk away to work on other people’s houses without having to answer for any of the resulting damage. What is the point of having building codes and standards if no one bothers to check this stuff? And to put the cherry on top of our week of misery, we had to send our 12 year old lab over the rainbow bridge yesterday. We’re both just completely overwhelmed by all of this and incredibly sad.
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Post by mom on Dec 6, 2018 15:53:08 GMT
Ugh. Buckle up, this could get long. Ten years or so ago, MIL hired a contractor to lift the cabin and have a new foundation built underneath because the existing foundation was crumbling. We’ll call this company ABC Construction. Ten years go by, she passed away, we now own it and want to renovate the old, original part of the cabin and build new on top of the newish foundation. To do this, we hired a different contractor, XYZ Construction to do the work in part because ABC is known in the area for making promises that aren’t delivered, taking forever to pay their subcontractors, etc. We had attempted to get an estimate from ABC to do the work just to have something to compare prices, and he never even got back to us with a quote even after telling us we had waited long enough and would be put right at the top of the list so to speak. The XYZ guy did get us a quote, was always timely and came highly recommended, so when XYZ called us and said they had an opening for this winter, we jumped on it and hired him. Anyway, in the process of demolishing the old part of the cabin, the current contractor discovered that ABC didn’t install proper flashing up and under the siding on the existing cabin walls and as a result, water had seeped in over the last ten years running down underneath the rock siding on the new foundation, causing significant rot and mold damage to the floor joists, the sheathing, sheet rock, etc. Fixing this damage is going to cost somewhere in the neighborhood of an additional $40-50K on top of what was already a really expensive project. 😭 It’s literally a situation like one of those shows you see on HGTV where the remodeling contractor opens up the wall and says, “Whoa! What the heck is THIS?” None of the damage was obvious from the outside or inside until the old cabin and the deck were taken down. We were very lucky that it didn’t collapse. DH contacted our insurance company but they said that because it wasn’t the result of a single “event” it isn’t something they would cover and that we should contact ABC’s insurance company. Well, the owner of ABC won’t tell DH which insurance company they use because he doesn’t want to have a claim to be processed against them, and effectively told DH that if we would have hired him to do the job, he would have just fixed the damage and absorbed any additional cost. DH said, “You had an opportunity to bid the job and never even got back to me with a quote, so we hired the other guy.” At this point, we have a more than half demolished cabin that we could barely afford the planned renovation to begin with that is now going to be significantly more money to finish (and by ‘finish’, we are talking basic sheet rock, electrical, roof, windows and doors, plumbing, HVAC; no flooring, paint, cabinets, light fixtures, interior trim finishes or anything else, literally a sheet rock shell). DH thinks that the statute of limitations to sue ABC is six years, which would have ended 3-4 years ago. Our new contractor is trying to figure out the most cost effective way to fix it, but the guy isn’t running a charity so it’s going to cost us. We’re also going to have to completely empty out and remove all the downstairs kitchen and bathroom cabinets and all the rest of our furniture and belongings out of the formerly finished lower level because it will now have to have all the ceilings taken down, the lake side front wall removed and it will basically need to be gutted too to replace the rotted floor joists between the two levels. So that means paying for a storage unit for at least six months on top of bringing even more cabin stuff home to our house, and moving stuff through the snow and up an icy hill now that the exterior timber stairs up to the driveway are gone. In short, we just really don’t know what to do. We don’t know what our legal options are. We have involved our attorney but even he isn’t sure what we can do because it’s in a different state from where we live. We can’t leave it the way it is, and to finish it even to the bare standards we were planning to would totally wipe out our retirement fund. Borrowing any additional money for this is not an option. We are praying that when it’s all done we won’t have to sell it because we can’t afford it. This cabin has been in his family for almost 50 years. Sigh. If you’ve made it this far, thank you for bearing with me to get this all out. I can’t believe that a company can build something that badly and then be able to just walk away to work on other people’s houses without having to answer for any of the resulting damage. What is the point of having building codes and standards if no one bothers to check this stuff? And to put the cherry on top of our week of misery, we had to send our 12 year old lab over the rainbow bridge yesterday. We’re both just completely overwhelmed by all of this and incredibly sad. Is the ABC Company Licensed and Bonded? If they are, they HAVE to display their license number. Your state (most states, I think, anyway) have a state board that you can call and get the information from. You can also file a complaint with them. I am really sorry about your dog. Thats hard on it its own and then to add this headache on top of it all, ugh. I am so sorry. Edited to add: The statute of limitations would not start until you FOUND the problem (in my state, anyway). Not necessarily from the date they completed the work. Since you are only now finding out, the time starts. But a lawyer will be able to for sure tell you.
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Post by lisacharlotte on Dec 6, 2018 15:56:03 GMT
What mom said. Also, a 2nd home is not worth jeopardizing your retirement. If you cannot afford the reno, you need to figure out other options.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Dec 6, 2018 16:00:24 GMT
Thanks, mom. I’m sure ABC is licensed and bonded, they would have to be. DH has been trying to find out what he can from the state of Wisconsin but with all the state and federal offices closed yesterday it’s been slow going. He’s left a bunch of messages and is waiting on people to call us back. I was thinking last night (at 4:00 am when I was awake after dreaming my recently passed dog was barking to go out, oy) that we should probably also contact the WI attorney general and file a complaint there. But again, that wouldn’t have been something we could have done yesterday anyway with all the state offices closed.
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basketdiva
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Post by basketdiva on Dec 6, 2018 16:02:44 GMT
The contract was between your MIL and the contractor. She didn't notice or report any issues for 10 years so I doubt you have any recourse. Sorry this is happening to you.
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GiantsFan
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Post by GiantsFan on Dec 6, 2018 16:05:08 GMT
What mom said. Contact your state's contractors board and ask them.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Dec 6, 2018 16:05:32 GMT
What mom said. Also, a 2nd home is not worth jeopardizing your retirement. If you cannot afford the reno, you need to figure out other options. At this point we can’t just walk away from the project. We’ve taken out a construction loan to do the work and a bunch of that money has already been spent on the demolition, dumpsters, pouring concrete for the footings, etc. and we have no choice but to finish it in some way even if it means we have to finish it and then sell it. Sigh. I hear what you’re saying, but we can’t leave it the way it currently stands. We have to do something, we really have no choice.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Dec 6, 2018 16:19:39 GMT
The contract was between your MIL and the contractor. She didn't notice or report any issues for 10 years so I doubt you have any recourse. Sorry this is happening to you. She passed away two years after the cabin was lifted, it wasn’t likely that there was much damage yet at that point, plus she was terminally ill and didn’t make it out there much during that time. We were doing all of the maintenance and upkeep on it and there was nothing visible inside or outside to tip us off that there was a problem. The cabin was inspected and appraised before we took out the construction loan, and even the inspector didn’t notice anything was off. My DH was involved with all of the planning, etc. for the lift and foundation construction along with his mom so while technically the contract was between MIL and the contractor, the ABC contractor has known DH most of his adult life. ABC guy made a substantial amount of money doing the lift and the basement construction, and I feel like he took advantage of an elderly dying woman who just wanted to make the place more functional for her extended family for years to come. DH’s family has been a part of that community for almost 50 years.
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Post by mom on Dec 6, 2018 16:26:01 GMT
The contract was between your MIL and the contractor. She didn't notice or report any issues for 10 years so I doubt you have any recourse. Sorry this is happening to you. She passed away two years after the cabin was lifted, it wasn’t likely that there was much damage yet at that point, plus she was terminally ill and didn’t make it out there much during that time. We were doing all of the maintenance and upkeep on it and there was nothing visible inside or outside to tip us off that there was a problem. The cabin was inspected and appraised before we took out the construction loan, and even the inspector didn’t notice anything was off. My DH was involved with all of the planning, etc. for the lift and foundation construction along with his mom so while technically the contract was between MIL and the contractor, the ABC contractor has known DH most of his adult life. ABC guy made a substantial amount of money doing the lift and the basement construction, and I feel like he took advantage of an elderly dying woman who just wanted to make the place more functional for her extended family for years to come. DH’s family has been a part of that community for almost 50 years. Was there any sort of warranty, that transferred with the house? Many places that do this type of work will offer a warranty that goes with the house, vs staying with who paid for the work. Just because the contract was between MIL and Conrtactor doesn't mean there wasn't a warranty that transferred. You need to find this out. All of the highlighted? Well, that's all irrelevant. And just because something wasn't done right doesn't mean they set out intentionally to screw the elderly. When many people are working on a project, there are a million and one ways something can happen that isn't right.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2018 16:43:06 GMT
What you want ABC Contracting to do is turn your claim over to their insurance company.
One way to do that might be to send him a Demand for damages letter. In the letter outline the scope of the damage done by his negligence and give the estimated cost to fix the damage. This you should be able to get from your new contractor.
Put in a deadline of when you want a response and end it by saying failure on his part to respond could result in legal proceedings against his company.
Talk to your attorney to get the wording that you should use in the letter.
Unless the contractor is a complete idiot, he will then turn this all over to his insurance company.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Dec 6, 2018 16:49:35 GMT
Thanks @fred, that is helpful.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Dec 6, 2018 16:51:38 GMT
mom We are looking into whether there is / was some sort of warranty. The drafter for the building materials company who was involved with drawing the plans for both phases of this project (10 years ago and now) mentioned something to that effect yesterday when DH talked to him. ETA: The ABC guy is the go-to guy in town for most construction work and MIL trusted him to do the right thing. I think he cut corners because to do it right would have involved taking more time and he was already way beyond the timeframe that had been promised, and already over double the initial cost he had initially quoted to her. She was the type to just trust people and pay them if they said they needed more money. FTR, it took us almost four YEARS to get to the point where we could get on any contractor’s schedule for this project so it isn’t like we were the ones kicking this can down the road ourselves. All of them in that area are so busy it isn’t uncommon for them to be booked out a couple years in advance. It was sheer luck that our preferred contractor had a cancellation, otherwise we would still be waiting.
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basketdiva
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Post by basketdiva on Dec 6, 2018 16:55:05 GMT
One suggestion- call the contractor licensing board in the state where the cabin is located and ask them about statute of limitations as well as any recourse you might have.
I don’t understand how the inspector missed the damage to the floor joists and the sheetrock if the damage is that extensive. He should have inspected the crawl space.
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Post by walkerdill on Dec 6, 2018 16:58:56 GMT
We are flooring contractors so not at all the same but all our warranties are non transferable and are for the original purchaser only.
I would guess it would be the same for most other contractors. Your best bet would be call an attorney & just ask if there is a statue of limitations. Try to find the original paperwork on the original remodel & see what it says.
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Post by katlaw on Dec 6, 2018 17:00:42 GMT
Have you tried calling back your insurance company and updating them on what is happening? They can open a claim and then they can go after his insurance company for damages if it can be proved ABC was negligent. Similar to being involved in a vehicle collision where your insurance company represents you but the other insurance company pays for damages if they are found at fault. They advised you to contact his insurance company directly but since that is not working out for you I would call them back to see if they can help you do that.
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Post by LuvAgoodPaddle on Dec 6, 2018 17:09:36 GMT
Oh man, what a mess to deal with.
I don’t know if it’s like this with every state, but when we lived in CA and hired contractors, they had to post their license number. We used that to google their license and they come up on the state license board website. In CA, this page lists their license status and insurance company info.
Can you find out their insurance company that way?
They don’t want to give it to you because any claims filed will raise their rates.
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Post by katlaw on Dec 6, 2018 17:10:51 GMT
Based on the description of the damage I do not think this is a warranty issue. It sounds more like a negligence issue. Anyway, in the process of demolishing the old part of the cabin, the current contractor discovered that ABC didn’t install proper flashing up and under the siding on the existing cabin walls and as a result, water had seeped in over the last ten years running down underneath the rock siding on the new foundation, causing significant rot and mold damage to the floor joists, the sheathing, sheet rock, etc. He did not install flashing that was faulty. He missed installing flashing and because of that there is damage. I am not a contractor or insurance agent so I could be way off base but that is how I would approach it if this were me. crazy4scraps needs a Mike Holmes
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2018 17:15:47 GMT
Sorry this happened. I have a feeling the only recourse you will have is to file a lawsuit against them. Your demand letter won't motivate them to compensate you and you'll likely have to prove negligence and the fact that as a homeowner, you didn't exacerbate the problem by ignoring any known or obvious defects. I would check if there is a statute of limitations regarding liability before pursing a lawsuit.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Dec 6, 2018 17:22:05 GMT
One suggestion- call the contractor licensing board in the state where the cabin is located and ask them about statute of limitations as well as any recourse you might have. I don’t understand how the inspector missed the damage to the floor joists and the sheetrock if the damage is that extensive. He should have inspected the crawl space. There isn’t a crawl space. The damage was between the main floor (original cabin) and the walkout basement (foundation) level. There wasn’t apropriety flashing between the siding above at the floor level and the new foundation exterior below at the ceiling level, allowing water to seep down between the walls between the two floors. Most of the damage is to the joists were the water was coming in, behind the ledger boards that the deck was attached to.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Dec 6, 2018 17:25:29 GMT
Based on the description of the damage I do not think this is a warranty issue. It sounds more like a negligence issue. Anyway, in the process of demolishing the old part of the cabin, the current contractor discovered that ABC didn’t install proper flashing up and under the siding on the existing cabin walls and as a result, water had seeped in over the last ten years running down underneath the rock siding on the new foundation, causing significant rot and mold damage to the floor joists, the sheathing, sheet rock, etc. He did not install flashing that was faulty. He missed installing flashing and because of that there is damage. I am not a contractor or insurance agent so I could be way off base but that is how I would approach it if this were me. crazy4scraps needs a Mike Holmes Yes, all of this exactly. And yes, Mike Holmes was immediately who came to mind! I’m pretty sure he’s in Canada though. You seriously can’t make this crap up.
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Post by pierkiss on Dec 6, 2018 17:25:41 GMT
I would look for a lawyer in the state the house is in that specializes in real estate law and go to him or her for advice. Esp since you said your lawyer doesn’t really know how to handle this situation. The only thing I could think of would be to sue the contractor, but I’m not sure how to go about doing that, or if you will even have a case. I’m so sorry you guys are dealing with this situation! It is awful!!!
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Post by Darcy Collins on Dec 6, 2018 17:45:52 GMT
Call a Wisconsin lawyer - make sure you know exactly when the work was completed. This has some good info and Wisconsin has a repose provision for construction defects which is probably going to be relevant based on the OP : www.uslaw.org/files/Compendiums2012/Construction/Wisconsin_construction_10.pdfThere is more info in the above about requirements for notice and opportunity to fix before suing: 40-50K is well beyond the ability to handle in small claims - you're going to need a lawyer to handle this properly.
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basketdiva
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Post by basketdiva on Dec 6, 2018 17:57:53 GMT
One suggestion- call the contractor licensing board in the state where the cabin is located and ask them about statute of limitations as well as any recourse you might have. I don’t understand how the inspector missed the damage to the floor joists and the sheetrock if the damage is that extensive. He should have inspected the crawl space. There isn’t a crawl space. The damage was between the main floor (original cabin) and the walkout basement (foundation) level. There wasn’t apropriety flashing between the siding above at the floor level and the new foundation exterior below at the ceiling level, allowing water to seep down between the walls between the two floors. Most of the damage is to the joists were the water was coming in, behind the ledger boards that the deck was attached to. Got it.
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peabrain
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Post by peabrain on Dec 6, 2018 18:25:37 GMT
I don't know any of the legal answers but please if you haven't already, take pictures of EVERYTHING, with something to indicate sizes if needed like a ruler included if needed. Take things close up and things far away. Print them out. Label them with the date they were taken.
Take some pictures as work is going on as well. Document EVERYTHING. Every conversation you have with EACH company.
Start a notebook
Date 12/6 called ABC spoke with Fred Nogooddrywaller at 2:36pm. He said he'd clean mold by 12/7/18 12/8 called ABC spoke with Mr. Nogooddrywaller at 1:36. I explained the mold was not clean and he said ...
If you do have to go to court, it's better to have a detailed list.
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Post by anniefb on Dec 6, 2018 18:31:35 GMT
I would see a lawyer and get advice about whether you have a potential claim or not. As others have said you wouldn’t have a contractual claim against the builder because it was your MIL who had the contract with them. Sounds like there could be a potential negligence claim but you need to understand how limitation periods would affect that. E.g in New Zealand a 6 year period applies to negligent building claims from the date of ‘reasonable discovery’ - the date of discovery of the defect, or when it should have been discovered, but there also an additional limitation period of 10 years from the date when the building work was completed.
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Post by Really Red on Dec 6, 2018 18:34:16 GMT
I am sorry! It makes my dryer situation seem like child's play. I cannot even imagine how sick you must feel. I would absolutely get a lawyer involved now. It's worth a couple thousand dollars to potentially save $40K. The lawyer will know what to do and where to turn.
I am sorry you're going through all this.
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Post by shutterbug2sue on Dec 6, 2018 18:39:19 GMT
You should check in with the building department of the community where this was done. Most likely a permit was required and they would have a record of pulling it (or not) and then have the inspection/approval history. That could help with negligence documentation.
As for the contractor information, you should be able to look them up on the state's database of corporations. Not sure if that would help you find their insurance but it would give you their proper mailing address so you can use that to file a complaint.
And the builder should have a builder's license which is another state database. And you can file a complaint with that agency if you find just cause for negligence.
As for a plan of action, can you get the work to a point where it is all enclosed and safe from the elements? Then you can re-assess what can be done, get an estimate and see if it's worth it.
If you can document the faulty work and how it made the house worthless, I'd sue. You may not get anything though since you're probably not the first to have such shoddy work.
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Post by mikklynn on Dec 6, 2018 19:42:53 GMT
You can and should try all the things suggested. But, my experience with a construction project gone bad is what my lawyer told me - You can go to court, you can win, but you'll never collect. The contractor won't pay, and the courts are not good at enforcing payment.
He said contractors can close their business and reopen under a new corporation.
I'm so sorry you are dealing with this.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Dec 6, 2018 22:36:50 GMT
Thanks everybody, I really appreciate your insights on this. I was volunteering at school today and am just coming back to everyone’s comments since this morning. peabrain yes, our new contractor has taken a lot of pictures and forwarded them to DH. I will tell him to start a notebook and also keep the chain of text messages he’s sent and received between himself and old contractor as well as between himself and new contractor for documentation. We may be going there to pull what there was of the flashing out of th dumpster since it was pulled off when the top half of the cabin was removed. Even the new contractor didn’t realize the full extent of the damage until he pulled the ledger boards off with his bare hands, the wood underneath was completely rotted out. shutterbug2sue Therein lies the problem, the floor joists are what need to be replaced in order to support the entire upper level and the roof. We won’t be able to get any of that done to enclose the cabin until the joists are somehow repaired or replaced, and to do that they have to tear down the entire ceiling for the basement, all the ductwork, everything. We were seriously lucky that the ceiling didn’t collapse on top of us since we have only been using the lower basement walkout level for the last seven years. At this point with the whole top of the cabin gone, we have to do something now while it’s winter. Once it warms up and starts to rain, the whole thing would be a total loss because water would get into the lower level now too ruining what’s still salvageable.
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Post by malibou on Dec 8, 2018 22:51:04 GMT
A lot of states have statute of limitations for construction defects that go much longer than the "typical" 4 years. In many states it's 10 years from completion and in some cases, if the defect couldn't be detected until a later time, that is the statute of limitation start time.
You will need a lawyer that deals in construction law with residential familiarity in the state where the property is.
Good luck.
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