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Post by epeanymous on Jan 30, 2020 17:44:52 GMT
Assume a student lied in their application to a (higher-ed) school and was accepted to the school. Assume the lie was of a personal-back-story nature, as opposed to about on-paper qualifications like grades. The student is now enrolled at the school. The lie is provable. What should the school do?
1. Does it matter the extent to which the personal-back-story was a factor in admission?
2. Does it matter whether or not the person is continuing to tell the same story in things like job interviews?
Curious what people think.
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MDscrapaholic
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,592
Location: Down by the bay....
Jun 25, 2014 20:49:07 GMT
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Post by MDscrapaholic on Jan 30, 2020 17:48:40 GMT
Lying is lying, no matter how you sugar coat it.
However, today, everyone has to be super careful when dealing with students/parents. Lots of snowflakes out there.
Does this person believe this actually happened? Is it just their point of view? Children don't always know the whole story about things that happen in their family.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 19:20:50 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2020 17:51:43 GMT
Is the lie harmful? If it's something like reinventing their history then I'd be more inclined to want to find out why than to punish them.
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Post by busy on Jan 30, 2020 18:08:17 GMT
Aren’t you in legal education? I’d be bothered by this in any situation, but especially that one.
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Post by myshelly on Jan 30, 2020 18:13:36 GMT
I think I’d need to know more context.
Was it in an admissions essay? Could they argue the essay didn’t have to be factual and was a work of fiction?
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Post by MichyM on Jan 30, 2020 18:15:05 GMT
As a mother who's child attended college, it is my opinion that lying on an application form/essay should be "punishable" by booting the student out. It shows lack of intregrity. If it's a student in your program, doubly so.
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Post by librarylady on Jan 30, 2020 18:16:38 GMT
While a lie is a lie--In some cases, I'm willing to cut some slack.
Suppose the student's parents were involved in an infamous murder situation and the student instead says "I was in a poverty situation and my aunt took me in." I would not care.
If student claims mixed race in order to qualify for a grant made only to a particular race--I'd cry foul.
Does student claim to live in one community to gain admission when student really lives somewhere else--I'd cry foul.
I'd need a few more details in order to say what I think the school should do.
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Post by katlady on Jan 30, 2020 18:18:31 GMT
On one hand it is not lying about their qualifications. However, it is lying, which is falsifying their application. And their "story" could be what got them accepted over another equally qualified student who did not have a compelling back story.
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Post by mom on Jan 30, 2020 18:21:53 GMT
I guess I would need to know more info. Also? I think accusing someone of lying if you do not know, 10000% that the lie is a lie. How is the lie probable/disprovable?
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 19:20:50 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2020 18:26:38 GMT
For #1, I think I would take into consideration just how much that lie played a role in his/her admission into the school and just how big of a lie it is. For #2, I don't think the school should concern itself with what this person is saying in job interviews unless this person is applying for jobs at the school.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 19:20:50 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2020 19:36:59 GMT
I think it depends on what part of the application the student lied on. Lied about address for in-state tuition purposes? Make them pay out-of-state fees. Lied in their essay? That's a grey area because they could claim it's fictional. Lied about nationality for minority status? Kick them out.
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Post by epeanymous on Jan 30, 2020 20:04:08 GMT
I guess I would need to know more info. Also? I think accusing someone of lying if you do not know, 10000% that the lie is a lie. How is the lie probable/disprovable? I do not want to get into details but just assume there are no proof issues and it is crystal clear the person lied. |
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Post by epeanymous on Jan 30, 2020 20:05:02 GMT
Aren’t you in legal education? I’d be bothered by this in any situation, but especially that one. Yes, and that is from my perspective a huge problem for all of the obvious reasons. |
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Post by epeanymous on Jan 30, 2020 20:08:22 GMT
While a lie is a lie--In some cases, I'm willing to cut some slack. Suppose the student's parents were involved in an infamous murder situation and the student instead says "I was in a poverty situation and my aunt took me in." I would not care. If student claims mixed race in order to qualify for a grant made only to a particular race--I'd cry foul. Does student claim to live in one community to gain admission when student really lives somewhere else--I'd cry foul. I'd need a few more details in order to say what I think the school should do. I do not want to put any identifying information on the internet. A situation that might be similar in effect (although this is a very different actual lie) would be writing your admissions essay about your years-long battle with pancreatic cancer when you were never sick. |
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Post by Lexica on Jan 30, 2020 20:12:34 GMT
Did this lie give them an admissions advantage over another equally qualified student? Could the lie be covering up of a very painful or embarrassing family issue? I guess to give a definite opinion, Iwould need to know more about the lie. I’m not a proponent of lies, but I am compassionate enough to weigh the reasoning behind it. Typically in the average liar, they will do it again and again to achieve what they want in life. Those need to be weeded out of the legal profession.
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Post by librarylady on Jan 30, 2020 20:12:50 GMT
I think I would want the person kicked out of the program and exposed as liar. Don't want that type of person being rewarded for an open lie.
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pancakes
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,002 
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Post by pancakes on Jan 30, 2020 20:16:02 GMT
While a lie is a lie--In some cases, I'm willing to cut some slack. Suppose the student's parents were involved in an infamous murder situation and the student instead says "I was in a poverty situation and my aunt took me in." I would not care. If student claims mixed race in order to qualify for a grant made only to a particular race--I'd cry foul. Does student claim to live in one community to gain admission when student really lives somewhere else--I'd cry foul. I'd need a few more details in order to say what I think the school should do. I do not want to put any identifying information on the internet. A situation that might be similar in effect (although this is a very different actual lie) would be writing your admissions essay about your years-long battle with pancreatic cancer when you were never sick. Given your example regarding the cancer, I would strongly consider revoking their admission. If it were a lie of a lesser nature — such as when they claimed to manage a department when they really only were a project manager once or they took credit for leading a project when it was a group effort — then I would make them aware of their lie and give them a warning. I am curious, though, as to what degree this personal essay played a part in their acceptance. That could change my perception of the severity of the punishment. |
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Jan 30, 2020 20:54:33 GMT
A situation that might be similar in effect (although this is a very different actual lie) would be writing your admissions essay about your years-long battle with pancreatic cancer when you were never sick. That or similar is a major issue, could have cause preferential treatment. Even so still major life changing issue and should be booted, because the lie would be repeated in the future for nefarious purposes.. (watching too many trial/lawyers) Telling lies is an extremely bad habit to get into and has probably done it a lot more in the past! Going into a profession requiring licenses causes a BIG red flag with untruths Anyone today needs to know the internet knows all. An employer could become extremely upset with person but also with school this person had attended to gain degrees, so the school's' reputation could become involved for bad screening. They could then questions any graduate from said institution! ETA: I sound mean, but I guess this mess in DC is coloring my decision. Take a stand! STOP THE LIES for everyone!! |
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Post by myshelly on Jan 30, 2020 21:19:30 GMT
I don’t know, if it was in the essay I think there are lots of arguments to be made about whether the purpose of the essay is to evaluate writing ability or to evaluate the facts.
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Post by mustlovecats on Jan 30, 2020 21:24:04 GMT
I think any lie that materially impacts the admissions process, one that would potentially make the difference between admission and not, should result in the revocation of that admission.
Would the student have been admitted with or without that information in the essay, then I don’t think it’s significant. Would the student have potentially been admitted or rejected on the basis of the essay or the essay was a weighted factor in admissions, I think it’s significant and should result in the revocation of the offer of admission.
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Post by myboysnme on Jan 30, 2020 21:26:18 GMT
If I was in a position to know all that for sure, I would tell them I know and to knock it off and stop pretending to be what they are not. I would give them the chance to stop.
Sadly, when I was in high school, I made up an entire alter persona for myself because I hated myself and my life. I got found out when the people from my two 'worlds' collided and everyone hated me for being a liar. But in one group, once I made up the alter life I felt I had no option but to maintain it.
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Post by 16joy on Jan 30, 2020 21:33:16 GMT
If there is no doubt that the student lied, he knew he was lying and he submitted application saying everything was truthful, he needs to be expelled.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Jan 31, 2020 0:39:47 GMT
I’m curious how the lie helped in the admission process as well as why the person is maintaining the lie. What benefit does it have now? I think if I was in the position to, I would talk to the person (at the least) about how continuing the lie would affect the rest of their future.
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Post by pierkiss on Jan 31, 2020 1:38:37 GMT
While a lie is a lie--In some cases, I'm willing to cut some slack. Suppose the student's parents were involved in an infamous murder situation and the student instead says "I was in a poverty situation and my aunt took me in." I would not care. If student claims mixed race in order to qualify for a grant made only to a particular race--I'd cry foul. Does student claim to live in one community to gain admission when student really lives somewhere else--I'd cry foul. I'd need a few more details in order to say what I think the school should do. I do not want to put any identifying information on the internet. A situation that might be similar in effect (although this is a very different actual lie) would be writing your admissions essay about your years-long battle with pancreatic cancer when you were never sick. My gut reaction says they should be removed from the program for a lie like this. But. Does the admissions essay have to be factual? If so, why? What bearing does it have on whether or not the person gets into the school/program? Or is the essay there just as an example of the persons writing abilities? If it is only there for writing abilities, well, it’s a shitty thing to do, but does it really matter? I am not a fan of liars. Finding something like this out about one of my colleagues or students (if I were a teacher) would but a VERY bad taste in my mouth about this person. |
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Post by epeanymous on Jan 31, 2020 1:52:43 GMT
I do not want to put any identifying information on the internet. A situation that might be similar in effect (although this is a very different actual lie) would be writing your admissions essay about your years-long battle with pancreatic cancer when you were never sick. My gut reaction says they should be removed from the program for a lie like this. But. Does the admissions essay have to be factual? If so, why? What bearing does it have on whether or not the person gets into the school/program? Or is the essay there just as an example of the persons writing abilities? If it is only there for writing abilities, well, it’s a shitty thing to do, but does it really matter? I am not a fan of liars. Finding something like this out about one of my colleagues or students (if I were a teacher) would but a VERY bad taste in my mouth about this person. My oldest kid is applying to college. They had some very serious mental health issues last spring that caused equally serious academic problems that the universities will see elsewhere in the application. In their application essays, they are offering that as an explanation for why they have those problems on their transcript. It is reasonable, I think, for academic institutions to ask about people’s personal narratives for a variety of reasons, including reasons like those (and institutions can do with that information what they will), but I think that generally academic institutions expect application essays to be truthful. There are reasons like my kid’s why it might matter, eg. If you are choosing between two applicants with similar grades and test scores, and one received those credentials while battling cancer, I think you’d think about that in deciding which student to admit. |
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jan 31, 2020 1:58:35 GMT
Sounds like the question that was asked of Elizabeth Warren.
I’d need more info in order to make a fully thought out determination.
A lie is a lie.
Lying on admissions forms —don’t they say something to the effect that if you lie, it’s punishable?
What would be the punishment if this persons lie came to light?
Again, a lie is a lie. Especially now, in our social media, political climate lying is becoming the norm (and it shouldn’t be).
If lying is allowed, then where do you draw the line?
There are becoming fewer and fewer consequences for those who lie—look at white male students who have lied and raped on campus—they’re not held to the same standards as black students or females.
Lies are lies. Consequences should be enforced.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Jan 31, 2020 2:07:13 GMT
Is detail needed or could it be handled with I was under a doctor's care for a rather extended time while receiving treatment. I am fully recovered. If you have any questions I would be willing to come in and speak with you. epeanymous |
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Post by nlwilkins on Jan 31, 2020 2:49:50 GMT
The main reasons a person would lie in such a situation is (1) to make themselves look better or more deserving of symphony or (2) to cover up something that makes them look bad. A lie about either one is presenting yourself in a false manner. This person needs to be held accountable and consequences administered. Whatever it is they "earned" through the lie(s) should be taken away.
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Post by epeanymous on Jan 31, 2020 20:50:18 GMT
FYI, for thread participants, to my understanding, in the wake of being confronted, the student has withdrawn.
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