Are you more or less likely to vote Biden with Kamala as his

Can I ask why you don't like Kamala?  I honestly would like to know.

If you got the impression from my post that something better might be waiting in 2024 or 2028, I wanted to re-iterate, I expect the exact opposite.  Someone way worse than Trump is coming from the GOP, and at some point we have to decide that the threat to an actual democracy is a real "clear and present danger."  I would rather people get on board now, because in 4 or 8 years they will be even more emboldened, and more organized and proficient than this bunch and we won't have time for people to come to terms that while some are waiting on a unicorn, a raging bull is on course to trample anything in its path, including people waiting on unicorns.  

We aren't going to get "more of the same," if this continues.  We will have more dismantling of the ways our society functions, and the consequences will extend far beyond Trump's targets of choice: brown immigrants.  On another forum I read, a Disney forum, people were fully supportive that the National Guard should go full Kent State on protesters to shut this down.  It's not just racism and sexism anymore, its dissenters need to be locked up, and if people get killed in the process, so be it, and these aren't just fringe opinions.  That includes media, that includes political adversaries, that includes people on the street holding signs and chanting for social justice.  "That can't happen here," "Those things won't happen to me," doesn't mean things can't happen. See: pandemic.  Your long game only works if that's the long game we're actually playing.

FWIW, I actually think that situations like we have now, actually become catalysts for substantive change.  I don't believe we would have National marriage equality, if California's Prop 8 hadn't passed, pissing off enough people who had the privilege of not having to worry about the implications in their own lives, to the point of actually doing something.  The debate has been do Democrats have to be moderate to appeal to wayward Republicans or go full-on Progressive.  I think a similar thing is happening now, and the answer is more progressive action.  But it's not going to be instantaneous.  It's going to be in local government, State representation, Congressional (like the Squad) and lastly President / VP.  It's "ground up" not "trickle down" progressive action.

But all of this requires the presence of a National, functional democracy. We don't have this.  We can see some of the damage, but in all ares of the federal government, with sycophants running more and more I don't think we can even appreciate the scope of damage to places like the State department, education, health & human services, the Justice department etc.  As bad as we think things are, it's already worse.  Plus, pandemic, raging unemployment, pending housing and food insecurity on a massive scale.

sadly, I agree with this.

I typed out and deleted something similar to this because I was having a hard time verbalizing what you have stated so perfectly here above. If we truly want change and viable alternate parties, we need to work on that change at the grassroots level, in state and local government elections. It’s not going to happen overnight starting at the highest levels of government. It just isn’t.

Thank you.  My first Presidential election was 1996, and I voted for Bob Dole.  I thought I was a moderate, economic conservative Republican.  My DH recently got a Facebook request from a college friend of mine (I don't do Facebook), who was such a religious conservative that he believed the dinosaurs didn't exist as the Earth was only 6000 years old.  A friend and I celebrated his Student Government win by getting drunk with his dorm cluster roommates.  The only time in my life, I have gotten intentionally drunk, lol.  This friend, and one of my similarly minded dorm cluster roommates sat in my dorm room reading the Bible to each other praying for my soul.  He's a raging Progressive now!  So yeah, it happens.

I believed that this county valued human beings (even though that definition has certainly changed over the years), but essentially the Founding Fathers beliefs in "natural rights."  I believed that even though we couldn't force the World to accept our ideals toward freedom and equality, and run their Government a certain way, we have the power to determine what happened to the lives within our purview.  Citizens and the non-Citizens we interact with, because when you believe humans have value, it doesn't matter where their home is, it matters what you do in your home. 

When I think about systemic injustice, not only does it mean how one person treats another, it's also how a person justifies their actions or more importantly inaction.  It took me awhile to make the connection that the things we tell ourselves are "differences of political opinion," is the system doing its job in perpetuating the injustice, which allows the Haves benefits they wish to keep (who wouldn't).  Not believing in climate change, endangers the lives of everyone on this planet.  I've never seen anyone talk about a pending birth or learning someone has a serious medical issue without their number one thought being a desperate wish for good health.  But healthcare is not a basic human right?  This pandemic reinforces that the health of strangers affects us all.  And dozens of other thoughts that I realized ultimately come down to, "if I believe you have value, I have to try to make sure you have this."  Where the mountain that must be climbed to obtain "this," is expensive, difficult, painful, requiring hard work and sacrifice that most of us can't conceive of because life is not that easy for the majority of us.  Why mentally pile on things that are out of our control?  We have to function, so we tell ourselves things that sound logical, so we can tuck it away and focus on what's in front of us.

I feel it's a lot like taking The Matrix's red pill.  It's struggle, struggle, struggle, and then *click* and once you start seeing, you can't unsee.  It multiplies, and suddenly you realize, you're a thousand miles away from where you used to be.  Not just a step or two.  This is why I stopped believing in the "moderate" silent majority.  The choice isn't really conservative, liberal, Democrat, Republican.  It's a belief more along the lines of, should the world be cruel or not, and do people deserve its cruelty?  I can't find the moderate position for cruelty.  Sometimes cruel stuff happens, we aren't at the pinnacle of civilization yet.  But when we have the recognition, and the choice and we let the cruelty happen in our own home?   What we call moderate or independent, I think is more about psychology.  Who can argue with the middle? It's so much easier to take the blue pill.  Plus, it is scary to accept change of that magnitude.  How could I have been *that* wrong about so much?  And radical is such a negative word.

I still believe the Democrats are horrible at messaging, become susceptible to *squirrel*, end up in the weeds and so much more, so a lot of times it's hard to support political candidates.  Democrats must get better, but cruelty is not an option.  As I've gotten older, I've lost the tolerance for keeping my mouth shut about it, even though I hate confrontation.  I've typed more than I meant to, and I need to go to bed, so I hope this has been more food for thought.  The easiest option is to stay where one is.  Physically and mentally.   Learning, challenging, growing...I've never felt it hasn't been worth it, even if it is at times, like now, it's uncomfortable and soul crushing.

Trump can scream, kick and cry all he wants.  If he loses, there is a transfer of power on Jan 21 that he cannot stop or change.  He can dig his fat ass into the carpet and refuse to leave but at that point, he has zero power and no one has to listen to him anymore.