Deleted
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Aug 18, 2025 20:01:42 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2020 6:16:02 GMT
In the Democratic Party AOC or Pete Buttigieg?
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garcia5050
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,815
Location: So. Calif.
Jun 25, 2014 23:22:29 GMT
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Post by garcia5050 on Nov 14, 2020 6:18:48 GMT
I really like Pete, so i picked him. But I feel like I’ve been so wrong with my political guesses lately.
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used2scrap
Drama Llama

Posts: 6,147
Jan 29, 2016 3:02:55 GMT
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Post by used2scrap on Nov 14, 2020 6:27:23 GMT
That’s a tough one...culture likes a celebrity persona more, which should make AOC more successful, but sexism...so I guess I think Pete.
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Post by busy on Nov 14, 2020 6:34:10 GMT
AOC. Younger generations love her. She represents a sea change in the party.
Pete’s the “new guard” of the same old Democratic Party. He’s a Boomer’s ideal of the evolution of the party.
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Post by pierkiss on Nov 14, 2020 10:44:38 GMT
Pete! I like his demeanor more. AOC just seems to fly off the handle over everything (at least that’s how I perceive her when I read things about her and see snippets of her on the news).
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Post by aj2hall on Nov 14, 2020 12:31:04 GMT
I do like some of the things AOC has done. I was really impressed when she spoke up in Congress to that jerk who mouthed off to her. But, I think she is too progressive and controversial for some. Pete has done a fantastic job campaigning for Biden, love some of the things he’s said on Fox News. Hoping he has a prominent place in Biden’s administration.
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peabay
Prolific Pea
 
Posts: 9,975
Jun 25, 2014 19:50:41 GMT
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Post by peabay on Nov 14, 2020 12:57:10 GMT
I think there are more centrists in America than progressives so I would say Pete. Not to say that progressive ideas and ideals won't enter the mainstream eventually - they always do.
And the fact that we're pointing to a gay man as the icon of a specific party is evidence of that.
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Post by Really Red on Nov 14, 2020 13:00:28 GMT
Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't it be both?
For me, I hope and wish it to be AOC. I love her completely.
I really, really like Mayor Pete, particularly post campaigning as he has brought out a little more disgust with the Republican party. I think there is a place for both of them.
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Post by Merge on Nov 14, 2020 13:06:05 GMT
I agree with Really Red - why not both? Robust policy discussion and even disagreement moves us forward.
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Post by hop2 on Nov 14, 2020 13:49:53 GMT
Well that depends, are you asking cumulatively over their whole careers? Right now or down the road. Visible wow factor accomplishments or steadfast incremental gains?
Next 5-10 years Buttigieg, because I think this administration will tap him for a position. ( they should ) and he will make steady gains for the country in an incremental fashion. Spending a great deal of his career defending gains that others will get credit for. Lifetime ‘wow factor’ accomplishments that stick in people’s memory? AOC, I mean most positions have to move progressively just to compromise with AOC. Unless she burns out she will push a lot of things forward even against resistance.
They have 2 different styles. AOC is offense she will push forward and gain ground. Pete Buttigieg is defense, he will defend the flank and defend the ground gained. AOC will ask for the stars, people will balk say it too far and Buttigieg will negotiate the moon.
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Deleted
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Aug 18, 2025 20:01:42 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2020 15:06:55 GMT
The Justice Democrats Mission Statement.
“We need a Democratic Party that fights for its voters, not big corporate donors. Our goal is to build a mission-driven caucus in Congress by electing more leaders like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Jamaal Bowman, who will represent our communities in Congress and fight for bold, progressive solutions to our current crises.”
Why not a place for both AOC and Pete Buttigieg?
Simple in the world of AOC, the Justice Democrats and other progressive activist groups there is only one way and it’s their way which leaves no place for moderates like Pete Buttigieg in their vision of the Democratic Party.
Why do I say that?
During the primaries when Pete was still running for President he came up option for a progressive idea, that prompted AOC to claim Pete was using “Republican talking points” and was a non starter because it went against the progressive agenda. I believe it was that instead of all students who go to state colleges getting free tuition Pete would only give free tuition to those who couldn’t afford to pay for it and those who could afford to pay the tuition would pay the tuition. Pete said the money saved by those who could afford to pay the tuition could be better spent elsewhere. And he has a point if you think about it.
Also we have AOC with help from the Justice Democrats actively going into House Districts held by Democrats and running progressive candidates against them. It’s one thing if the folks of that district decide on their own they want a change but it’s another thing when an outside group targets a sitting member of Congress of the supposedly the same party with the intent of knocking them off because they don’t think likes this outside group wants them to think.
The idea is to get more Democrats elected to the House and Senate which would mean if you’re going to target Congressional seats that you would do it where a seat is currently being held by a Republican. But AOC & Co knows it would be a waste of their time & money because their progressive message would lose in a moderate purple to red district. So they chose to knock off moderate Democrats and replace them with progressives. To what end I don’t know if they can’t get a solid majority in the House and Senate.
And that is why, unless there is a “coming to Jesus” moment for the progressives there will never be room for both a AOC and a Pete Buttigieg to play leadership rolls at about the same time in the future Democratic Party.
Which is really too bad.
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Post by elaine on Nov 14, 2020 15:11:25 GMT
The title says “accomplish more” and the poll says “will be more successful down the road.”
To me, they have subtly different meanings.
Because Pete is male, I think that he will publicly be “more successful.” Because AOC is female, and therefore perceived as being loud-mouthed rather than passionate or forceful, I think that she will continue to battle public perception and public views of success.
I think that a large portion of Boomers like Pete more than AOC - which plays to perceptions of success, rather than actual success. I, personally, like Pete quite a bit. AOC, not as much. BUT, that shouldn’t color my, or anyone else’s views of her actual accomplishments.
Because Pete is currently not serving in a official capacity and AOC is a sitting member of Congress, in the short run she will probably accomplish more legislation than Pete - definitely more in the short run and maybe in the long term too. If she has a long career in Congress, the amount she can accomplish is large. I don’t know if she will ever receive the credit for it that Pete will receive for accomplishments.
Finally, I don’t think it is, or should be, a competition. Both can be important lifelong contributors to the democratic process and the Democratic Party.
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Post by bc2ca on Nov 15, 2020 3:30:22 GMT
And that is why, unless there is a “coming to Jesus” moment for the progressives there will never be room for both a AOC and a Pete Buttigieg to play leadership rolls at about the same time in the future Democratic Party. Good gravy, there is room in the party for both Elizabeth Warren and Hillary Clinton, why can't there be room for both AOC and Pete? Finally, I don’t think it is, or should be, a competition. Both can be important lifelong contributors to the democratic process and the Democratic Party.
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Post by AussieMeg on Nov 15, 2020 3:55:49 GMT
That’s a tough one...culture likes a celebrity persona more, which should make AOC more successful, but sexism...so I guess I think Pete. I don't think it's sexism at all. Well, not from my point of view anyway, although I am willing to concede that for some it may be the case. I adore Pete but am undecided about AOC. I really want to love her I'm not quite there yet. She's quite polarising.
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Deleted
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Aug 18, 2025 20:01:42 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2020 15:00:28 GMT
And that is why, unless there is a “coming to Jesus” moment for the progressives there will never be room for both a AOC and a Pete Buttigieg to play leadership rolls at about the same time in the future Democratic Party. Good gravy, there is room in the party for both Elizabeth Warren and Hillary Clinton, why can't there be room for both AOC and Pete? Finally, I don’t think it is, or should be, a competition. Both can be important lifelong contributors to the democratic process and the Democratic Party. The difference between Elizabeth Warren and AOC is Warren is willing to compromise when needed and AOC is not. It was when Warren singled she was willing to compromise and had a 4 year plan to transition to M4A that she started to lose her support among progressives during the primaries. I guess those progressives figured that on day one you could just shove 320M people over to Medicare and everything would be honky dory. Problem solved.
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Post by SockMonkey on Nov 15, 2020 15:10:44 GMT
I agree with Really Red - why not both? Robust policy discussion and even disagreement moves us forward. Yup. Democrats are the worst at cannibalizing within our own party. Both of these folks can and will play important roles in all of the really hard and necessary work to come. Pitting them against each other is counterproductive.
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Post by littlemama on Nov 15, 2020 15:12:14 GMT
I think there is room for both, but Buttigieg will accomplish more in my opinion.
I think AOC's criticism of the Lincoln Project was not well done of her. She needs to consider her talking points and not just seek attention.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2020 15:13:14 GMT
I ran across this in April.
From the article...
“The American left is at a crossroads, with some leading activists defiantly refusing to support Biden. McElwee thinks that’s a huge strategic mistake, and he doesn’t expect many progressives to make it in November; this week, Sanders and fellow liberal icon Elizabeth Warren endorsed Biden, and AOC also called for a united front against Trump. McElwee may be an ideologue, but he’s a pragmatic big-tent ideologue who believes the left can best advance its agenda from inside the Democratic Party—and can eventually come to control it.”
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Post by Merge on Nov 15, 2020 15:13:34 GMT
Good gravy, there is room in the party for both Elizabeth Warren and Hillary Clinton, why can't there be room for both AOC and Pete? The difference between Elizabeth Warren and AOC is Warren is willing to compromise when needed and AOC is not. It was when Warren singled she was willing to compromise and had a 4 year plan to transition to M4A that she started to lose her support among progressives during the primaries. I guess those progressives figured that on day one you could just shove 320M people over to Medicare and everything would be honky dory. Problem solved. What the heck are you talking about? Every progressive I know voted for Warren *because she had a plan.* That wasn’t some concession to moderates on her part. She had ideas and had a reasonable plan to make them happen. It was like the whole basis of her campaign. I get that you hate progressives and think we’re a stain on the party, but let’s not be making stuff up. Progressives and moderates have co-existed in the party for years, and we’re not going to stop now. I really don’t understand what your point is repeating false scare-mongering about progressive candidates.
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Deleted
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Aug 18, 2025 20:01:42 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2020 15:25:58 GMT
More for whom!?!?!?
Middle class white folks? Disenfranchised minorities? Immigrants? White men? Black women!??!?
See the problem in your question.
Or did you mean "Which of these two Democrats will accomplish more...for me?"
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Post by guzismom on Nov 15, 2020 15:27:07 GMT
To be successful in Democrat politics, one cannot be too far left leaning.
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Post by Merge on Nov 15, 2020 15:29:56 GMT
To be successful in Democrat politics, one cannot be too far left leaning. Somebody should tell all the progressives in congress and local/state office that they’re “not successful.”
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Deleted
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Aug 18, 2025 20:01:42 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2020 16:39:43 GMT
The difference between Elizabeth Warren and AOC is Warren is willing to compromise when needed and AOC is not. It was when Warren singled she was willing to compromise and had a 4 year plan to transition to M4A that she started to lose her support among progressives during the primaries. I guess those progressives figured that on day one you could just shove 320M people over to Medicare and everything would be honky dory. Problem solved. What the heck are you talking about? Every progressive I know voted for Warren *because she had a plan.* That wasn’t some concession to moderates on her part. She had ideas and had a reasonable plan to make them happen. It was like the whole basis of her campaign. I get that you hate progressives and think we’re a stain on the party, but let’s not be making stuff up. Progressives and moderates have co-existed in the party for years, and we’re not going to stop now. I really don’t understand what your point is repeating false scare-mongering about progressive candidates. I was looking for a plan on how Sanders or Warren planned on moving people over to M4A if they won. So when Warren released her plan I actually thought it would work. And grumbled about it not being a fan of M4A. It was about this time she started to slide in support. And it was reported that Bernie Bros , on the sly, started attacking her by saying stuff like she’s not one of us blab blab blab when they were out talking to folks. I think my favorite attack against Warren leveled by the Bernie Bros was she had too much money. As if Sanders was living in poverty. And I do remember reading some progressives were not happy with her 4 year plan. They thought it was a sell out. I remember thinking at the time well how stupid is that. To me her plan was a form of a compromise in that to move folks to M4A it had to be done in stages over a period of years and couldn’t be done all at once. Something caused her slide in support among progressives. There was a lot of support for M4A among the faithful and her transition plan could have been seen as a sell out by some because it took too long in their minds to accomplish the goal. As indeed some progressives voiced. I will never be a fan of Elizabeth Warren but that doesn’t mean I can’t see and acknowledge what I see as positive things of her “plans” . And at one point I actually thought she could become the nominee and was glad she had come up with her transition plan for M4A which showed she really gave the matter some thought. Even if I disagree with her on M4A. And IF the Democrats were going to choose a progressive for their nominee I certainly would have wanted that to be Warren over Sanders. So cool your jets Warren supporter, I just gave her a compliment. But I do believe there is little tolerance among some factions of the progressive wing of the party for those who “don’t get with the program” that could prove problematic for the entire Democratic Party down the road. There is no doubt in my mind that after Sanders latched on to the Democratic Party for his 2016 Presidential run and received the limited success that he did his goal became to reshape and to use the Democratic Party to push his vision of what the country should be with no compromise. And all signs point to AOC believing the same as Sanders. IMO
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Post by refugeepea on Nov 15, 2020 16:45:22 GMT
Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't it be both?
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Post by freecharlie on Nov 15, 2020 16:54:11 GMT
To be successful in Democrat politics, one cannot be too far left leaning. Somebody should tell all the progressives in congress and local/state office that they’re “not successful.” the problem is that for the last 4 years they haven't been able to do anything at a federal level and prior to that it was tempered due to the gop in congress. On a state and local level, I think progressives have more success and that may be where they need to focus. Then local turns to state and state turns to federal...look at pot. Sooner or later the federalgovernmentwill jump on But I think...my opinion only...is that fewer people want the extreme than is claimed. For instance- I want to reduce our dependence on oil and gas, but I think it will or should be eliminated completely. There are lots of industries and economics tied to oil and gas that have little to do with running cars I don't want guns banned completely, but do want them regulated better I believe that religion has its place and can do a lot of good, I don't believe it should drive our government... Of course that is just me and I know many here disagree with everything I've said
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Post by Merge on Nov 15, 2020 17:18:36 GMT
Somebody should tell all the progressives in congress and local/state office that they’re “not successful.” the problem is that for the last 4 years they haven't been able to do anything at a federal level and prior to that it was tempered due to the gop in congress. On a state and local level, I think progressives have more success and that may be where they need to focus. Then local turns to state and state turns to federal...look at pot. Sooner or later the federalgovernmentwill jump on But I think...my opinion only...is that fewer people want the extreme than is claimed. For instance- I want to reduce our dependence on oil and gas, but I think it will or should be eliminated completely. There are lots of industries and economics tied to oil and gas that have little to do with running cars I don't want guns banned completely, but do want them regulated better I believe that religion has its place and can do a lot of good, I don't believe it should drive our government... Of course that is just me and I know many here disagree with everything I've said Again, I’m not aware of any progressive who would disagree with anything you said. No one has said oil and gas should go away entirely. We have said that we need to be prepared for a huge and inevitable downturn in that industry. No one has said ban all guns. No one has said to ban religion. This is exactly what I’m talking about - how do we message against people telling lies about our platform? None of what US progressives have advocated for would be extreme in any other country. That’s just more false messaging.
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Deleted
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Aug 18, 2025 20:01:42 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2020 17:22:11 GMT
how do we message against people telling lies about our platform? I don't know if we can. People (even Dems) have had the steady drumbeat of Dems are socialists, baby killers, etc. for 40 years, thanks to the extreme right-wing funding of right-wing media - esp. 24/7 talk radio and Fox. Watch "The Brainwashing of my Dad" by documentarian Jen Senko on Amazon Prime. I don't think it can be fought against unless some left-wing billionaires fund the same type of 24/7 steady drumbeat of truth and progressive ideas. I don't see it happening.
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Post by librarylady on Nov 15, 2020 17:56:34 GMT
I think there are more centrists in America than progressives so I would say Pete. Not to say that progressive ideas and ideals won't enter the mainstream eventually - they always do. And the fact that we're pointing to a gay man as the icon of a specific party is evidence of that.
Expressed my feelings very well.
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Post by pierogi on Nov 15, 2020 18:00:29 GMT
Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't it be both? For me, I hope and wish it to be AOC. I love her completely. I really, really like Mayor Pete, particularly post campaigning as he has brought out a little more disgust with the Republican party. I think there is a place for both of them. Thank you! Pete and AOC represent two entirely different wings of the Democratic party. Pete is from Indiana, so he's more typical of his moderate constituents. AOC is from NYC, so she's a voice for the progressive views there. One doesn't delegitimize the other, and I feel we need both voices as we move forward. One of the things I appreciate most about the Democratic party is the variety of opinion and ideas welcomed there. It causes friction sometimes, but that's healthy. Honest debate helps us grow. I see big futures for both of them.
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,919
Aug 29, 2015 2:39:19 GMT
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Post by lizacreates on Nov 15, 2020 18:00:35 GMT
The difference between Elizabeth Warren and AOC is Warren is willing to compromise when needed and AOC is not. It was when Warren singled she was willing to compromise and had a 4 year plan to transition to M4A that she started to lose her support among progressives during the primaries. I guess those progressives figured that on day one you could just shove 320M people over to Medicare and everything would be honky dory. Problem solved. What the heck are you talking about? Every progressive I know voted for Warren *because she had a plan.* That wasn’t some concession to moderates on her part. She had ideas and had a reasonable plan to make them happen. It was like the whole basis of her campaign. I get that you hate progressives and think we’re a stain on the party, but let’s not be making stuff up. Progressives and moderates have co-existed in the party for years, and we’re not going to stop now. I really don’t understand what your point is repeating false scare-mongering about progressive candidates. Thank goodness you never tire of rebutting posts like this. Good grief. How many more times will we have to deal with this, right? Progressives aren’t going away. Democratic socialism isn’t going away. In fact, it was the progressives who kept their House seats in swing districts. What happened to the Blue Dogs? Got routed by their Republican counterparts. Hewing to the center resulted in a House that was hoisted on its own petard. How could Floridians vote for a $15 minimum wage which is a Dem plank and then vote for Trump? I’ve been centre-left most of my adult life and even I saw the error of not listening to what everyday Americans really want and need, and that’s why I supported Warren and Sanders. The challenges facing us are immense: massive inequality, a virus at full throttle, almost 30 million unemployed, healthcare costs crippling millions, education costs straitjacketing the young and their parents, just to name a few. At a time when establishment Dems and progressives need to band together to make some meaningful and substantial headway with a much-lessened House majority, we still have to deal with pointless intraparty slugfests and divisive threads like this and never-ending sturm und drang over one representative who has ONE vote. Who for some inexplicable reason is now being pitted against a neoliberal Buttigieg (and anyone who describes him as progressive doesn’t know what progressive means). What purpose does this hostile factionalizing serve? Damned if I know. Oy. Sometimes I think it’s not the GOP that’s hamstringing us; it’s our own party. [And what does “…singled she was willing to compromise mean”? Must have meant “ signaled.” And for the love of Pete (the non-Buttigieg one), it’s “role.” Leadership roles; not “rolls.”]
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