anniebygaslight
Drama Llama
I'd love a cup of tea. #1966
Posts: 7,394
Location: Third Rock from the sun.
Jun 28, 2014 14:08:19 GMT
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Post by anniebygaslight on Nov 27, 2020 12:11:03 GMT
This came up in my facebook feed, and goes a long way towards explaining the mentality.
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Post by gar on Nov 27, 2020 13:39:08 GMT
This came up in my facebook feed, and goes a long way towards explaining the mentality. I would hope she's in a minority... How many wars have been started over differences in not believing
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Post by Really Red on Nov 27, 2020 14:00:49 GMT
This came up in my facebook feed, and goes a long way towards explaining the mentality. I would hope she's in a minority... How many wars have been started over differences in not believing This. Exactly.
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Deleted
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Apr 26, 2024 15:36:08 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2020 14:11:42 GMT
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Deleted
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Apr 26, 2024 15:36:08 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2020 15:08:55 GMT
This came up in my facebook feed, and goes a long way towards explaining the mentality. According to Snopes that's been around since 2007 they gave it a mixture on both true and false. No doubt there are some that are still around today that probably do think that way though. Apologies @podlove I should have refreshed before I posted the same link.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Apr 26, 2024 15:36:08 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2020 15:35:48 GMT
How many wars have been started over differences in not believing Millions dead over unprovable beliefs. Even when their 'god' is the same one: Northern Ireland, the French wars of Religion in the late 16th century, the horrific deaths during the reigns of Mary & Elizabeth in England, etc. Yes. Let's all fight over our favorite version of our favorite unprovable gods. That'll make sense.
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MizIndependent
Drama Llama
Quit your bullpoop.
Posts: 5,836
Jun 25, 2014 19:43:16 GMT
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Post by MizIndependent on Nov 27, 2020 17:48:42 GMT
I have to wonder how tired God is of these people who claim to speak for him. The Bible is actually VERY clear about how world leaders are viewed by God, including Romans 13:1... “Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.“ I believe God appoints our leaders. I have no idea what the hell those charlatans who try to pass themselves off as Christians are doing but it seems clear that it’s motivated by money. 🤢 What the hell was he or she thinking 4 years ago? You’ll have to ask God that question. I don’t presume to know the mind of God, especially where US presidents are concerned.
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Post by gar on Nov 28, 2020 9:53:44 GMT
I believe God appoints our leaders. Well I'm bloody sure he doesn't appoint ours, thank goodness! Boris is bad enough, if Trump is God's choice for you, we'll stick with Boris.
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cycworker
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,375
Jun 26, 2014 0:42:38 GMT
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Post by cycworker on Nov 28, 2020 22:42:15 GMT
Romans 13:1 could be interpreted to mean God chooses our leaders, or that he chooses the type of political structure we have.
As well - it is tricky because just because God knew/could forsee that Trump would win, that doesn't mean that he WANTED it. But he gives us free will, and then he uses our choices to further the kingdom. He didn't want Jacob to steal Esau's birthright, but he knew it was going to happen.
Wait... was it Jacob who stole Esau's birthright, or the other way around? I don't remember.
I actually DO think God has fulfilled a purpose through Trump: He's further shown the problems with these kinds of evangelical leaders like Jerry Falwell Jr. He's exposed the gaps between the leaders, who in many ways are just as corrupt as the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and the actual body of the church. And hopefully he is continuing to enlighten more & more Christians to not put their faith in those leaders.
Also - freedom of religion necessarily includes freedom from religion. That said, I don't think we've found, as a culture/society (all N. America here) the balance between the two.
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Post by gar on Nov 28, 2020 23:21:12 GMT
Romans 13:1 could be interpreted to mean God chooses our leaders, or that he chooses the type of political structure we have. I have no idea what the bible piece you're quoting says but you believe he decides that dictators and tyranny are a great choice for some segments of the world's populations? I'm sorry, I just don't get that thinking...do you think the people living in that sort of society just aren't trying hard enough to change it? Or they don't want change enough? I just don't get it, and I doubt I ever will and quite honestly, that's fine, I'm not sure I want to.
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Post by refugeepea on Nov 28, 2020 23:28:12 GMT
I'm surprised people are surprised by Evangelicals in the United States. The simple answer for a lot of them is indoctrination from birth. The Bible is the word of the Lord. Avoid worldly things. Only listen to things that are in agreement with what we believe. Then along comes Trump who can easily mislead them. Tell them what they want to hear. Doesn't matter if he's lying. He's against abortion and so are they! He did sin in the past, but haven't we all?! Listen to Fox News because they agree with Trump, until they don't. Now it is only Newsmax.
I know there are some who convert. I think those types were former big time "sinners" hanging desperately onto the hope that they have been saved and they better continue doing what they are told.
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cycworker
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,375
Jun 26, 2014 0:42:38 GMT
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Post by cycworker on Nov 29, 2020 0:47:52 GMT
Romans 13:1 could be interpreted to mean God chooses our leaders, or that he chooses the type of political structure we have. I have no idea what the bible piece you're quoting says but you believe he decides that dictators and tyranny are a great choice for some segments of the world's populations? I'm sorry, I just don't get that thinking...do you think the people living in that sort of society just aren't trying hard enough to change it? Or they don't want change enough? I just don't get it, and I doubt I ever will and quite honestly, that's fine, I'm not sure I want to. I admit I don't get it either, beyond free will.
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valincal
Drama Llama
Southern Alberta
Posts: 5,623
Jun 27, 2014 2:21:22 GMT
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Post by valincal on Nov 29, 2020 6:55:40 GMT
I'm surprised people are surprised by Evangelicals in the United States. Living outside of America it’s easy to be surprised that a relatively newly invented religion could gain such a foothold in your country. I feel the same way about Mormonism.
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cycworker
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,375
Jun 26, 2014 0:42:38 GMT
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Post by cycworker on Nov 29, 2020 7:10:27 GMT
valincal - I want to apologize again. Rather than generalizing about Alberta, I should've asked you or one of the AB peas what it is really like there. The perception is that there is a STRONG Evangelical streak, along the lines of what we see in the USA. The latest example is an article I saw in the paper about proposals to revamp the education curriculum for public schools, including teaching Creationism? And I thought I read something about the sex ed curriculum, making it 'abstinence only,' and generally more aligned with church thinking? So latent anti LGBT thinking? In fairness, I saw this in only one article, so I should've checked my perception.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Apr 26, 2024 15:36:08 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2020 14:48:49 GMT
Here's a nice 4 1/2 minute wrap-up of the "religious freedom for me, but not for thee" crowd in the GOP
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Post by catmom on Dec 1, 2020 16:59:43 GMT
I have to wonder how tired God is of these people who claim to speak for him. The Bible is actually VERY clear about how world leaders are viewed by God, including Romans 13:1... “Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.“ I believe God appoints our leaders. I have no idea what the hell those charlatans who try to pass themselves off as Christians are doing but it seems clear that it’s motivated by money. 🤢 I'm interjecting a few days late, but the conversation around Romans 13:1 is an interesting one. If it is to be taken literally, there should have been no American revolution, just to use one example. And yet Paul himself later in life disobeys the governing authority, apparently changing his tune. It's possible he never imagined those words being canonized into semi-literal (depending contextually on whether your guy is in office) instruction. Peter Enns wrote an article on the subject a few years ago, and how it relates to inerrancy in the bible. peteenns.com/the-apostle-pauls-clear-inerrant-teaching-on-government-and-why-we-dont-need-to-follow-it/I won't bore everyone who doesn't care with the whole article, but the gist is that this viewpoint was very standard for the time and not any particularly religious view. Also, that it predates democracy and was at a time when leadership wasn't by the will of the people at all. And more critically, that the whole notion of inerrancy of the Bible and taking it as literal rules for living vs spiritual inspiration leads us down some very odd paths. And again, Paul himself didn't take his words as 'gospel' so I don't think we need to.
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inkedup
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,837
Jun 26, 2014 5:00:26 GMT
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Post by inkedup on Dec 1, 2020 19:14:05 GMT
I'm surprised people are surprised by Evangelicals in the United States. The simple answer for a lot of them is indoctrination from birth. The Bible is the word of the Lord. Avoid worldly things. Only listen to things that are in agreement with what we believe. Then along comes Trump who can easily mislead them. Tell them what they want to hear. Doesn't matter if he's lying. He's against abortion and so are they! He did sin in the past, but haven't we all?! Listen to Fox News because they agree with Trump, until they don't. Now it is only Newsmax.
I know there are some who convert. I think those types were former big time "sinners" hanging desperately onto the hope that they have been saved and they better continue doing what they are told.
I think the fact that you are surprised by other people's reaction to Evangelicals speaks to how deeply this extremism is entrenched in our culture. "Indoctrination from birth" is no more an excuse for these blind people than it is for extremists in Muslim countries. I find both groups equally dangerous and disturbing. Religion is fine if you want to practice it and not push your disgusting, retrograde views on the rest of the world. (Universal "you".)
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Post by refugeepea on Dec 1, 2020 22:06:22 GMT
"Indoctrination from birth" is no more an excuse for these blind people than it is for extremists in Muslim countries. I find both groups equally dangerous and disturbing. Leah Remini's series on Scientology is interesting to watch to get an idea of what I mean.
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inkedup
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,837
Jun 26, 2014 5:00:26 GMT
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Post by inkedup on Dec 1, 2020 23:49:02 GMT
"Indoctrination from birth" is no more an excuse for these blind people than it is for extremists in Muslim countries. I find both groups equally dangerous and disturbing. Leah Remini's series on Scientology is interesting to watch to get an idea of what I mean. My husband was raised in the Jehovah's Witness cult until he was 8 and it really damaged him. His mother, who made the choice to join that cult as an ADULT, left once it became too hard for *her*. She really had no concern for what she was doing to her kids when she was an active part of the system, though. She still fails to recognize the damage her idiotic allegiance to that cult did to her children. Scientology, evangelicalism, fundamentalism, Jehovah's Witnesses, extremist Muslims....they are all part and parcel of a system that is designed to prey on weak minded people. I feel bad for children born into this, but we also live in 2020. If adults choose to continue believing those delusions - and trying to make others live under those delusions - I have no compassion. Christian fundamentalists and the politicians that cater to them are destroying our country.
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Post by refugeepea on Dec 2, 2020 0:36:11 GMT
I feel bad for children born into this, but we also live in 2020. If adults choose to continue believing those delusions - and trying to make others live under those delusions - I have no compassion. Christian fundamentalists and the politicians that cater to them are destroying our country. I get it, but a lot of these religions/cults are like an abusive marriage. Most are patriarchal. If you haven't experienced it, it's easy to say come on! It's 2020. What the hell is your problem? Why would you stay with that loser? You are beat down with expectations and never being good enough, not perfect enough.
Your eternal salvation is literally at stake if they don't do what you are told. If you leave you can be shunned and no longer invited to religious events because you've fallen away and aren't worthy. You have been so caught up in the culture and busy with callings, service, and suddenly the entire existence you have ever known is gone. That was your world. Also a lot of the time, women are encouraged not to worry about getting an education. You are stuck without a support system.
I do have a bit of compassion because I've been there.
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Post by catmom on Dec 2, 2020 1:09:15 GMT
I feel bad for children born into this, but we also live in 2020. If adults choose to continue believing those delusions - and trying to make others live under those delusions - I have no compassion. Christian fundamentalists and the politicians that cater to them are destroying our country. I get it, but a lot of these religions/cults are like an abusive marriage. Most are patriarchal. If you haven't experienced it, it's easy to say come on! It's 2020. What the hell is your problem?
Their eternal salvation is literally at stake if they don't do what they are told. If you leave you can be shunned and no longer invited to religious events because you've fallen away and aren't worthy. You have been so caught up in the culture and busy with callings, service, and suddenly the entire existence you have ever known is gone. That was your world. Also a lot of the time, women are encouraged not to worry about getting an education. You are stuck without a support system.
I do have a bit of compassion because I've been there.
All of this. These people have the same systemic and systematic conditioning of someone in an abusive relationship or low-key cult. And women especially are trained and encouraged to only read books and use resources that are Christian, and frequently of their denomination. I'm in a couple FB groups that are Christian and every time one of the women are looking for a resource they will always specify they only want recommendations for Christians <weight loss/goals/parenting/marriage/decorating/budgeting> resources. They actively isolate themselves from all other worldview and they focus on 'devotionals' and Bible reading vs any legitimate type of Bible study. God forbid they get too curious about what the Bible actually means. Speaking with some of them (not all!) can be a bit like speaking with someone pretty emotionally stunted and incredibly intellectually incurious. I say this as someone who comes from that background. It's hard to watch/read, and I find myself wanting to simultaneously rescue them and yell at them at the same time. So I have a lot of compassion as much as its also incredibly frustrating. That being said, the political side of the crazy is not typical of evangelicals or at least not specific to evangelicals outside the US. Up until 2 years ago I never would have heard such nonsense in any church I went to in Canada. And even now I only see it on FB - I don't think these are church teaching in any remotely normal Canadian church no matter how fundamentalist.
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inkedup
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,837
Jun 26, 2014 5:00:26 GMT
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Post by inkedup on Dec 2, 2020 1:11:28 GMT
I feel bad for children born into this, but we also live in 2020. If adults choose to continue believing those delusions - and trying to make others live under those delusions - I have no compassion. Christian fundamentalists and the politicians that cater to them are destroying our country. I get it, but a lot of these religions/cults are like an abusive marriage. Most are patriarchal. If you haven't experienced it, it's easy to say come on! It's 2020. What the hell is your problem? Why would you stay with that loser? You are beat down with expectations and never being good enough, not perfect enough.
Your eternal salvation is literally at stake if they don't do what you are told. If you leave you can be shunned and no longer invited to religious events because you've fallen away and aren't worthy. You have been so caught up in the culture and busy with callings, service, and suddenly the entire existence you have ever known is gone. That was your world. Also a lot of the time, women are encouraged not to worry about getting an education. You are stuck without a support system.
I do have a bit of compassion because I've been there.
It is absolutely an abusive relationship. I'm really sorry you have had to go through that trauma yourself. It just sucks that these cults get to traumatize the rest of us, too. I find myself listening to our Australian and European peas with such jealousy when they talk about how religion is just not central to their lives and government. For what it's worth, I think you are an amazingly open minded, kind, intelligent pea who has clearly done a lot of work to move through the traumas that were inflicted upon you. <3
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Post by refugeepea on Dec 2, 2020 1:24:47 GMT
It is absolutely an abusive relationship. I'm really sorry you have had to go through that trauma yourself. It just sucks that these cults get to traumatize the rest of us, too. I find myself listening to our Australian and European peas with such jealousy when they talk about how religion is just not central to their lives and government. For what it's worth, I think you are an amazingly open minded, kind, intelligent pea who has clearly done a lot of work to move through the traumas that were inflicted upon you. <3 Thanks. I do see people doing just fine in my former religion and truly believe they are okay. Unfortunately, I didn't meet all of the criteria that makes it easy to stay. My spouse chose to no longer attend church once we were married. Not a big deal in almost any other religion, but I was devastated because of what would happen to my eternal salvation.
I would love to live where religion is not central to a community. I'm in my 40's and trying to figure out alcohol and tea. So many more things that I still feel emotionally stunted. Faith of a little child is no longer what I consider a compliment.
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inkedup
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,837
Jun 26, 2014 5:00:26 GMT
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Post by inkedup on Dec 2, 2020 1:35:09 GMT
It is absolutely an abusive relationship. I'm really sorry you have had to go through that trauma yourself. It just sucks that these cults get to traumatize the rest of us, too. I find myself listening to our Australian and European peas with such jealousy when they talk about how religion is just not central to their lives and government. For what it's worth, I think you are an amazingly open minded, kind, intelligent pea who has clearly done a lot of work to move through the traumas that were inflicted upon you. <3 Thanks. I do see people doing just fine in my former religion and truly believe they are okay. Unfortunately, I didn't meet all of the criteria that makes it easy to stay. My spouse chose to no longer attend church once we were married. Not a big deal in almost any other religion, but I was devastated because of what would happen to my eternal salvation.
I would love to live where religion is not central to a community. I'm in my 40's and trying to figure out alcohol and tea. So many more things that I still feel emotionally stunted. Faith of a little child is no longer what I consider a compliment.
I'm sorry. I should not have been so wholly dismissive of the damage that is/has been/can be done to innocent people and particularly children. My husband carries so much guilt from his upbringing, and I felt echoes of that in your comment about alcohol and tea. It really is a form of abuse that one can never fully escape. My husband has not been in the church since he was 8 or 9 years old. At 43, he still has moments of self doubt and fear. Threat of eternal damnation does a lot to an innocent child's mind.
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Post by Merge on Dec 2, 2020 2:08:28 GMT
Thanks. I do see people doing just fine in my former religion and truly believe they are okay. Unfortunately, I didn't meet all of the criteria that makes it easy to stay. My spouse chose to no longer attend church once we were married. Not a big deal in almost any other religion, but I was devastated because of what would happen to my eternal salvation.
I would love to live where religion is not central to a community. I'm in my 40's and trying to figure out alcohol and tea. So many more things that I still feel emotionally stunted. Faith of a little child is no longer what I consider a compliment.
I'm sorry. I should not have been so wholly dismissive of the damage that is/has been/can be done to innocent people and particularly children. My husband carries so much guilt from his upbringing, and I felt echoes of that in your comment about alcohol and tea. It really is a form of abuse that one can never fully escape. My husband has not been in the church since he was 8 or 9 years old. At 43, he still has moments of self doubt and fear. Threat of eternal damnation does a lot to an innocent child's mind. The threat of the wrath of the gods, eternal damnation, etc. has been used by people in power to control others for millennia. Whether they were asked to subjugate themselves to the will of god’s “chosen,” or subjugate themselves entirely for the good of others by becoming a willing human sacrifice, people have been buying into this messaging for as long as there have been people advanced enough to create gods in their own image and to reflect their own desires and fears. It’s a particularly curious feature of the human psyche that we are so willing to believe that an invisible being wants us to submit to others who deem themselves more highly placed, or even more oddly, to what we perceive the desires of the invisible being to be without any other humans involved. I also struggle with the remnants of guilt and fear from my Catholic upbringing. You can’t unlive those experiences.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Apr 26, 2024 15:36:08 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2020 3:45:46 GMT
Threat of eternal damnation does a lot to an innocent child's mind I also struggle with the remnants of guilt and fear from my Catholic upbringing. You can’t unlive those experiences. It took me until I was married (for a while) to completely exorcise a sermon a priest gave when I was in 7th grade (and a total goody-two-shoes) about hell and damnation. I still think of him with disgust and contempt for putting those horror-movies spoken-images into my young brain.
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inkedup
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,837
Jun 26, 2014 5:00:26 GMT
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Post by inkedup on Dec 2, 2020 20:29:08 GMT
I'm sorry. I should not have been so wholly dismissive of the damage that is/has been/can be done to innocent people and particularly children. My husband carries so much guilt from his upbringing, and I felt echoes of that in your comment about alcohol and tea. It really is a form of abuse that one can never fully escape. My husband has not been in the church since he was 8 or 9 years old. At 43, he still has moments of self doubt and fear. Threat of eternal damnation does a lot to an innocent child's mind. The threat of the wrath of the gods, eternal damnation, etc. has been used by people in power to control others for millennia. Whether they were asked to subjugate themselves to the will of god’s “chosen,” or subjugate themselves entirely for the good of others by becoming a willing human sacrifice, people have been buying into this messaging for as long as there have been people advanced enough to create gods in their own image and to reflect their own desires and fears. It’s a particularly curious feature of the human psyche that we are so willing to believe that an invisible being wants us to submit to others who deem themselves more highly placed, or even more oddly, to what we perceive the desires of the invisible being to be without any other humans involved. I also struggle with the remnants of guilt and fear from my Catholic upbringing. You can’t unlive those experiences. My mom is the main reason I am free of any religious guilt. Her own upbringing included a great deal of abuse and neglect from her devoutly Catholic father. They had dirt floors and an outhouse (living in CO near the base of the Rockies) because my grandpa felt it was more important to send his 7 kids to private Catholic school. My mom married young and her first husband was an abusive, cheating drug addict. He was so bad that his own parents took my mom and older sister in when my mom left and told their son he was not welcome unless he wanted to treat his family right. When my mom tried to obtain a church annulment, the priest, who was very close to my grandfather, refused. My mom turned her back on the church completely when my baby sister was stillborn. The same priest who refused her annulment told my mother that she was being punished for being a sinner in the eyes of the church. (She and my dad were legally married, but not through the church, as my mom never pursued her annulment any further.) Growing up, she told us that we did NOT need an intermediary to talk to god. She said our ancestors (we are mostly indigenous) knew that god was in everything and especially us. "You don't need some asshole who has probably done worse things than you could imagine to tell you that you're good." Still, my mom struggled deeply throughout her life. She became an alcoholic after my sister died and it was a rough couple of decades. Near the end of her life, she told me about a transformative moment she had. She said that she was feeling hopeless and in despair. She turned the tv on and, as she flipped through the channels, Joyce Meyer was on. She said, "You! YES, YOU", and my mom listened to her give a sermon about our fundamental worthiness as humans. She was sobbing as she told me that she finally felt that she was not a broken person who deserved to suffer. I am an atheist, but it wasn't until that moment that I realized how horribly my mom had been abused. My heart broke for her and it sang because she was so smart and so strong in spite of that. She taught us to trust our own power. She gave us the gift of not worrying about eternal damnation. I am sorry to all of you who have been through that. It is horrible and cruel. I'm sorry I was dismissive of the struggles you face.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Apr 26, 2024 15:36:08 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2020 21:06:03 GMT
the gift of not worrying about eternal damnation. Amen. What would the world be like if all humans treated it as the wonder that it can be instead of a "weary", "broken", "dirty" rest stop on the way to Heaven Land (TM). Imagine all the energy and money through the ages having been spent on raising up the disenfranchised. Imagine there's no heaven....
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Post by Merge on Dec 2, 2020 21:12:55 GMT
The threat of the wrath of the gods, eternal damnation, etc. has been used by people in power to control others for millennia. Whether they were asked to subjugate themselves to the will of god’s “chosen,” or subjugate themselves entirely for the good of others by becoming a willing human sacrifice, people have been buying into this messaging for as long as there have been people advanced enough to create gods in their own image and to reflect their own desires and fears. It’s a particularly curious feature of the human psyche that we are so willing to believe that an invisible being wants us to submit to others who deem themselves more highly placed, or even more oddly, to what we perceive the desires of the invisible being to be without any other humans involved. I also struggle with the remnants of guilt and fear from my Catholic upbringing. You can’t unlive those experiences. My mom is the main reason I am free of any religious guilt. Her own upbringing included a great deal of abuse and neglect from her devoutly Catholic father. They had dirt floors and an outhouse (living in CO near the base of the Rockies) because my grandpa felt it was more important to send his 7 kids to private Catholic school. My mom married young and her first husband was an abusive, cheating drug addict. He was so bad that his own parents took my mom and older sister in when my mom left and told their son he was not welcome unless he wanted to treat his family right. When my mom tried to obtain a church annulment, the priest, who was very close to my grandfather, refused. My mom turned her back on the church completely when my baby sister was stillborn. The same priest who refused her annulment told my mother that she was being punished for being a sinner in the eyes of the church. (She and my dad were legally married, but not through the church, as my mom never pursued her annulment any further.) Growing up, she told us that we did NOT need an intermediary to talk to god. She said our ancestors (we are mostly indigenous) knew that god was in everything and especially us. "You don't need some asshole who has probably done worse things than you could imagine to tell you that you're good." Still, my mom struggled deeply throughout her life. She became an alcoholic after my sister died and it was a rough couple of decades. Near the end of her life, she told me about a transformative moment she had. She said that she was feeling hopeless and in despair. She turned the tv on and, as she flipped through the channels, Joyce Meyer was on. She said, "You! YES, YOU", and my mom listened to her give a sermon about our fundamental worthiness as humans. She was sobbing as she told me that she finally felt that she was not a broken person who deserved to suffer. I am an atheist, but it wasn't until that moment that I realized how horribly my mom had been abused. My heart broke for her and it sang because she was so smart and so strong in spite of that. She taught us to trust our own power. She gave us the gift of not worrying about eternal damnation. I am sorry to all of you who have been through that. It is horrible and cruel. I'm sorry I was dismissive of the struggles you face. Thanks for sharing your story. My mom never left the church, but she behaved like an abuse victim all her life, and it was her belief about being unfit and unworthy and eternally damned that drove a lot of that. And no need to apologize. It’s very difficult to comprehend if you haven’t lived it. I like what you said about giving her kids the gift of not being worried about eternal damnation. I’ve tried to give mine the same gift.
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M in Carolina
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,128
Jun 29, 2014 12:11:41 GMT
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Post by M in Carolina on Dec 2, 2020 21:23:43 GMT
Romans 13:1 could be interpreted to mean God chooses our leaders, or that he chooses the type of political structure we have. I have no idea what the bible piece you're quoting says but you believe he decides that dictators and tyranny are a great choice for some segments of the world's populations? I'm sorry, I just don't get that thinking...do you think the people living in that sort of society just aren't trying hard enough to change it? Or they don't want change enough? I just don't get it, and I doubt I ever will and quite honestly, that's fine, I'm not sure I want to. From my Bible knowledge it’s the fault of these Christian citizens who are supporting evil men. If the evangelicals hadn’t supported Trump, he would have gone down in history as a cringe-worthy but humorous off the wall maverick presidential candidate. But they decided he was God’s chosen man. I’ve actually read that some scholars think the one unpardonable sin is clergy declaring/prophesying that God said something He didn’t. My cats could tell that Trump was a liar and phony who was just saying anything to get elected. I had quite heated discussions with people about why they were supporting a con man who detested the Christian life. What I learned was that they were backing Trump because of hatred of the Democrats (the "other"), tribalism, racism, misogyny, and fear. There was also a lot of brainwashing going back years thanks to Fox Propoganda. Obama is a Muslim, and Hillary would be letting him advise. All Democrats are Christian hating baby murders who won't be happy until everyone is gay or transgender. There are a lot of Christians who actually believe that there are women and doctors who decide to murder live babies after birth. That's what they believe a "late term" abortion is. I've heard gory stories about doctors sticking scissors up into the birth canal to sever the spinal cord and nurses letting aborted but viable breathing babies just die. FACTS DON'T MATTER If you counter with sources refuting their beliefs, they say that the sources are false. That evil people are lying to fool people. Creationism is also rife with this (check out Ken "the devil is deceiving scientists" Ham) warning: his explanation of carbon dating will confuse you, and that might be too much after being infuriated about him using $62M in Kentucky tax payer funds to build his $100M ark. source for the tax funds (as a Christian I have a massive problem with anyone using that much money for something so unnecessary. That money could have been used to help society, clothing, feeding, and housing people in need. I just don't seem Jesus supporting the ark, but Supply Side Jesus would have.) These Christians live in bubbles where everyone believes the same thing, and you only listen to people in believe the same thing as you do. If you don't agree about doctrine, you find a church that lines up with your beliefs. The pastors are the messengers who tell everyone what they should believe. Dissent is often seen as rebellion against God that gets you punished or shunned. So you wind up in an echo chamber. I noticed that Fox News and Rush Limbaugh among others got a lot more militant once Obama was in office. Churches used to not be political, but things changed coughcoughracismandLGBTQ). I do think 9/11 and the subsequent nationalism blurred the lines between religion and patriotism. There was a lot more propoganda to push the "America was founded as a Christian country, and we need to takes back America for the traditional family" lie (the 1796 Treaty of Tripoli refuted that), and the GOP and lobbying groups used that to gain more political power. Most of the Christians I know are really naive and not well educated outside of the Bible and religious books. They don't see that they're being used by a political party that doesn't care about them. The GOP only cares about making money for themselves, and they only do the bare minimum to keep voters. So a lot of people are led astray by both the party and the religious figures who are claiming that "God is on the side of the Republicans" Democrats on the other hand have been demonized by these pastors, right wing press, radio hosts... A lot of Christians really believe that they are moralless thus evil people (their argument: without the Bible guiding you, you don't have a basis for morals, so what keeps you from killing people? Atheists can't have good morals, which is ridiculous). They see Democrats as people who have a hidden agenda, which is to purge Christianity from the US. Christians are big on there being a big evil cabal who wants to destroy America for reasons. I think that explains why they're more likely to believe in conspiracy theories like the Deep State and QANON. They scare their followers into staying in the church and away from non believers and other sinful denominations (that have misinterpreted the Bible and aren't living correctly). Talking to people who are different than you opens up your world view and shows you that everyone is very similar. There's nothing to fear, and most people just want to be free and happy to live the way they want. But Evangelicalism wouldn't be able to control people if they weren't afraid of the Democratic bogey monster.
If church members sat down with gay people, Muslims, minorities, transgenders and got to know and love them without judgment, they wouldn't want to build a wall and deny people love.
That would be the end of the GOP. I want my family to have an income, healthcare, etc. If I truly believe that everyone should get what my family should get, my beliefs do not match up with the GOP right now. I would have to vote Democrat to vote my conscience. Which is a conclusion I personally came to (better late than never)
When you've been taught that the Democratic party is evil, voting for a Democrat feels like you're leaving your faith. Like you're sinning. I think a lot of people didn't vote for either candidate in 2016 for this exact reason. Also Hillary was a really bad candidate.
I've thought about this question a lot and why so many people I respected were fooled. God expects Christians to live according to His commandments and make their country better. Christians have utterly failed. I think they have been for some time with their condemnation of LGBTQ+ and Muslims and blaming natural disasters on a "reprobate society". They're not loving their neighbors as themselves. They're the reprobates. They chose Trump and many literally worship him now. That has happened before, and God doesn't interfere because they've chosen their path. Watch how they act when Biden is in office. Now imagine that Hillary had won.
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