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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2014 2:54:01 GMT
She participated in NATS today. ( www.nats.org/ )
Voice. The rating of music and song.
Last year, comments included the fact that she wore dress pants vs. a dress and the fact that she wore glasses.
This year, she wore a dress...but she still got comments about her glasses.
Seriously...she's not wearing gaudy Elton John glasses. Normal glasses. How do glasses impact vocals?
I wonder if they've ever asked anyone in a wheelchair or a prosthetic limb to get rid of their devices?
One of the judges had her phone go off during one of DD's songs. Nice.
She scored well...2 Excellent and 1 Superior. But I wonder if she lost anything because she wears glasses.
Not everyone CAN wear contacts...WANTS to wear contacts...or has the ability to get contacts.
What a bunch of shit. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2014 2:58:21 GMT
Oh that is some bullllll shit. I don't have any advice because pitching a fit is probably going to result in not so subtle discrimination next year but you are absolutely right to be furious.
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Post by freecharlie on Nov 8, 2014 2:59:13 GMT
That is weird. She wasn't playing a role, so her eye wear, as long as it wasn't over powering, shouldn't factor in at all.
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Post by hop2 on Nov 8, 2014 2:59:44 GMT
Aww I'm sorry she's getting comments on the glasses. That does seem odd for them to comment on the glasses since your right that not everyone can wear contacts.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2014 3:02:48 GMT
She's not auditioning for the Met, for heaven's sake! If the judges are going to make a negative comment, it should concern her ability, not what she's wearing.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2014 3:03:41 GMT
DH is pretty pissed off too...and he never gets mad about anything. It upsets me because she said that now after 2 yrs in a row of this bullshit, she doesn't even want to participate next year. I don't know if her voice teacher or one of the comments suggested singing without her glasses...someone did. She shouldn't have to sing without her glasses. These are the glasses she should wear next year...with a t-shirt that says EFF YOU, NATS.  |
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Post by Merge on Nov 8, 2014 3:17:01 GMT
I did NATS for years. They do critique every portion of the singer's presentation from vocal quality to expression to appearance. IME they are often quite harsh and don't mince words. As a performer you have to learn not to take those things personally - it's all supposed to help you improve.
Some think that glasses obscure facial and eye expressions. She shouldn't "have" to perform without glasses, but reality is if she were auditioning for a show or giving a recital, most coaches would tell her to leave the glasses off.
Try to take it in the spirit of the judges wanting to prepare your daughter for professional-level performance, and not as a personal slight.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2014 3:37:12 GMT
Professional performers don't wear glasses?
She took their criticism about her dress pants last year and chose to wear a dress this year. But again, I don't really think glasses are an optional accessory.
But I never sang for NATS so what do I know...LOL
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Post by samcro on Nov 8, 2014 4:00:14 GMT
How bizarre!
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Post by Merge on Nov 8, 2014 4:00:29 GMT
No, professional performers of opera or art songs - the kinds of things you sing at a NATS audition - usually do not wear glasses onstage. You are acting as much as you are singing. Your facial expressions need to be clearly visible.
I'm curious who is submitting her for these auditions. If it's her voice teacher, he/she should know this stuff.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2014 4:34:55 GMT
I guess I need to start paying close attention to performers who wear glasses and decide if I'm able to see their facial expressions. It's just not something I've ever thought of or something I felt was lacking with those wearing glasses.
But again, I'm not musically trained...so what do I know?
Maybe her voice teacher (this is his 3rd year with her...he has a Doctorate) thinks that her facial expressions are just fine with glasses. IDK
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scrapnnana
Drama Llama
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Post by scrapnnana on Nov 8, 2014 4:36:34 GMT
No, professional performers of opera or art songs - the kinds of things you sing at a NATS audition - usually do not wear glasses onstage. You are acting as much as you are singing. Your facial expressions need to be clearly visible. I'm curious who is submitting her for these auditions. If it's her voice teacher, he/she should know this stuff.  My DD has participated in NATS competitions many times. She normally wears glasses in daily life, but never wore them for the competitions. She always considered very carefully what to wear, too. I'm surprised that your DD's teacher didn't give better information regarding what is expected. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2014 4:39:45 GMT
"What is expected" may be the case, but WHY is it expected? If someone can wear glasses and their facial expressions are clear and unobstructed, why are glasses such a bad thing?
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Post by anonrefugee on Nov 8, 2014 12:10:15 GMT
Can I ask something out of curiosity? If multiple judges suggest something, and a performer can do it, why not take it as helpful advice and follow it? This is really a Saturday morning mom-learning question on my part. My kids don't sing, but some of the feedback in their competitions can also seem trivial. However, if 2-3 judges mention it, and it's no skin to accomplish it, you bet they do it next time. Then judges can comment on something else the next time, so they don't keep getting same feedback. Again, just wondering. Maybe my kids should be more rebellious or something  |
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Post by Merge on Nov 8, 2014 12:32:45 GMT
"What is expected" may be the case, but WHY is it expected? If someone can wear glasses and their facial expressions are clear and unobstructed, why are glasses such a bad thing? I'm not saying they are. I'm just telling you, in my experience, what the norm is. Singing in a NATS competition (or almost anywhere in the world of serious classical singing) is not like singing on a school stage or at church or in any other venue. Think of it like competing in dressage or gymnastics or dog shows or any other activity with a long tradition and very specific, established rules for what is expected and appropriate. Some of the rules may seem like they have no reason to them, but if you choose to participate in that particular event, you should be aware of the expectations and willing to take your markdowns if you decide not to follow them. In the future, your daughter may choose to simply leave her glasses backstage. If she is significantly sight impaired, then she might choose to enter with them on, take her place and then remove her glasses and put them in a pocket or even on top of the piano. It's not a big deal or an insurmountable problem. Just take them off. Or don't, and be prepared for the comments. FWIW, I seriously doubt that the judge actually marked your daughter down for wearing glasses. Not every comment is cause for a markdown. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2014 13:21:51 GMT
I've often bemoaned the fact that I can't sing a note, now I realise it must be because I'm as blind as a bat without my glasses on. The only facial expression I can do without them is squinting like a mole in the midday sun!!
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raindancer
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Post by raindancer on Nov 8, 2014 13:57:53 GMT
"What is expected" may be the case, but WHY is it expected? If someone can wear glasses and their facial expressions are clear and unobstructed, why are glasses such a bad thing? I'm not saying they are. I'm just telling you, in my experience, what the norm is. Singing in a NATS competition (or almost anywhere in the world of serious classical singing) is not like singing on a school stage or at church or in any other venue. Think of it like competing in dressage or gymnastics or dog shows or any other activity with a long tradition and very specific, established rules for what is expected and appropriate. Some of the rules may seem like they have no reason to them, but if you choose to participate in that particular event, you should be aware of the expectations and willing to take your markdowns if you decide not to follow them. In the future, your daughter may choose to simply leave her glasses backstage. If she is significantly sight impaired, then she might choose to enter with them on, take her place and then remove her glasses and put them in a pocket or even on top of the piano. It's not a big deal or an insurmountable problem. Just take them off. Or don't, and be prepared for the comments. FWIW, I seriously doubt that the judge actually marked your daughter down for wearing glasses. Not every comment is cause for a markdown. I see. I agree that it would be problematic if it was any other device that was to help someone "Marked down for using crutches, can't you walk without those things?" but uniformity in performance does matter in many areas. My dd sings for a mariachi group, and they are required to have high tight pony tails, and the boys are required to have had a fresh hair cut and wear gel in their hair. Even though you can barely tell my little blond boy has gel in, we still use it. (The effect is much different on dark hair). OP, I get it though, stuff like that seems arbitrary and annoying when the focus is the singing. But at the same time I understand the pov of how it is supposed to look. Frustrating, but one of the things you just have to do. |
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Post by monklady123 on Nov 8, 2014 14:05:11 GMT
I think it's just "the way it is." lol. Kind of like how classical ballerinas have to have their hair in a bun. We know it's not simply to make it easier for girls with long hair to dance because lyrical dancers (and other styles) do not have to wear a bun. My dd did both and her lyrical dances had an awful lot of ballet in them, but her hair was usually in a pony tail. But she wouldn't have been allowed to be in ballet class or on stage to dance classical ballet with a long flowing pony tail. Sometimes it was a struggle to get that bun to stay in (she has slippery hair) until she learned all the tricks, but did it because she wanted to dance.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Nov 8, 2014 16:15:33 GMT
I think it's just "the way it is." lol. Kind of like how classical ballerinas have to have their hair in a bun. We know it's not simply to make it easier for girls with long hair to dance because lyrical dancers (and other styles) do not have to wear a bun. My dd did both and her lyrical dances had an awful lot of ballet in them, but her hair was usually in a pony tail. But she wouldn't have been allowed to be in ballet class or on stage to dance classical ballet with a long flowing pony tail. Sometimes it was a struggle to get that bun to stay in (she has slippery hair) until she learned all the tricks, but did it because she wanted to dance. Actually the bun is to make it easier to dance. Specifically properly spotting when turning. I was going to mention that most ballet companies also have a no glasses on stage rule. It's partially due to turning again, as the glasses can fly off. But for my daughter's school, it doesn't matter if your part includes a turn or not, no glasses on stage even if you're a little snow flake that's simply going to skip across the stage. |
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Country Ham
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Jun 25, 2014 19:32:08 GMT
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Post by Country Ham on Nov 8, 2014 16:38:09 GMT
Last year, comments included the fact that she wore dress pants vs. a dress and the fact that she wore glasses.
This year, she wore a dress...but she still got comments about her glasses.
She knew going into this year that glasses were a problem and yet she wore them again. Of course she got comments again. I wouldn't be surprised if the judges knew that she was spoken to about it the year before. I am also a little surprised that in the full year between last year and this you didn't find out why glasses were an issue. Talk to a singing coach. Talk to the organization putting this on. Talk to any performers. The first year you were caught by surprise. The second year you all knew better. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2014 17:27:05 GMT
Last year, comments included the fact that she wore dress pants vs. a dress and the fact that she wore glasses.
This year, she wore a dress...but she still got comments about her glasses.
She knew going into this year that glasses were a problem and yet she wore them again. Of course she got comments again. I wouldn't be surprised if the judges knew that she was spoken to about it the year before. I am also a little surprised that in the full year between last year and this you didn't find out why glasses were an issue. Talk to a singing coach. Talk to the organization putting this on. Talk to any performers. The first year you were caught by surprise. The second year you all knew better. You're directing a lot of your comments to "you", "you all" etc. I'm not involved. My daughter is a Junior in college. If SHE wants to talk to someone she's more than able to. In addition, I REALLY doubt that even if she had the same judges as last year (which I doubt...last year was hosted at Columbus State Univ. and this year was hosted at GA State Univ...that they'd remember their comments about her glasses from last year. In addition, I doubt every student has a "file" for the judges to use so that current judges could see what former judges had to say. But thanks for that...LOL
I really appreciate Merge's comments because even though I disagree and think it's stupid (and perhaps borders on discriminatory...but that may be a bit extreme, I realize) she did explain in a way that I could understand...even if I didn't agree with it or like it.
With that said...last night was a vent. I've moved on and haven't given it any thought today.
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Post by Merge on Nov 8, 2014 17:45:17 GMT
Undergrad is the perfect time to learn this stuff. I hope she will take the comments in stride and go back next year. If she plans to go on and audition for a master's program, the comments she receives from the NATS adjudicators - even when they sting a bit - are invaluable. Chin up, mom! I know how hard this can be from both sides of the equation - actually from all sides (as student, teacher and parent).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2014 17:59:26 GMT
Undergrad is the perfect time to learn this stuff. I hope she will take the comments in stride and go back next year. If she plans to go on and audition for a master's program, the comments she receives from the NATS adjudicators - even when they sting a bit - are invaluable. Chin up, mom! I know how hard this can be from both sides of the equation - actually from all sides (as student, teacher and parent). I'm not sure what she's going to do. She started out totally focused on MusicEd...with a 5yr Master's program at the college she attends.
She's now re-thinking her goals and plan...and is considering going for Vocal Performance for her Master's and then working on the Master's for Education. (and hopefully I have all that right...she went over it with me while I was driving and I'm not sure I really understand everything...but I don't have to...it's her choice...her life)
I told her again what I told her as she was trying to decide on colleges and majors. Pursue something you love and are passionate about, for sure. But your education is what will get you employment that will allow you to support yourself and/or family. I'm not really sure what kind of employment a Vocal Performance Master's will bring but she's also mentioned working at a college teaching college students. (which frankly, I think would be a better fit for her if she's going to teach...but again...not my decision)
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Post by Merge on Nov 8, 2014 18:56:22 GMT
Full time college teaching positions are ridiculously difficult to come by, particularly without substantial professional performance experience. Getting a master's degree made me a better singer and overall musician, but did nothing to increase my job prospects. My bachelor's is in music Ed. and that's been my bread and butter. I could probably cobble together a full time teaching load with adjunct positions at various colleges all over town, but it would be a hard road and I'd have no health benefits. Just some info from one who's BTDT. |
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Post by littlemama on Nov 8, 2014 20:41:56 GMT
So, would a singer with hearing aids receive negative comments if she did not remove them? I cannot see an inch without my glasses, so removing them in this situation would not be possible (and I can wear contacts either)
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Country Ham
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Post by Country Ham on Nov 8, 2014 22:23:34 GMT
She knew going into this year that glasses were a problem and yet she wore them again. Of course she got comments again. I wouldn't be surprised if the judges knew that she was spoken to about it the year before. I am also a little surprised that in the full year between last year and this you didn't find out why glasses were an issue. Talk to a singing coach. Talk to the organization putting this on. Talk to any performers. The first year you were caught by surprise. The second year you all knew better. You're directing a lot of your comments to "you", "you all" etc. I'm not involved. My daughter is a Junior in college. If SHE wants to talk to someone she's more than able to. In addition, I REALLY doubt that even if she had the same judges as last year (which I doubt...last year was hosted at Columbus State Univ. and this year was hosted at GA State Univ...that they'd remember their comments about her glasses from last year. In addition, I doubt every student has a "file" for the judges to use so that current judges could see what former judges had to say. But thanks for that...LOL
I really appreciate Merge's comments because even though I disagree and think it's stupid (and perhaps borders on discriminatory...but that may be a bit extreme, I realize) she did explain in a way that I could understand...even if I didn't agree with it or like it.
With that said...last night was a vent. I've moved on and haven't given it any thought today.
Honestly I thought you were talking about a child not a young adult. Especially given how upset you later said your husband was. Talking about it being shit etc. I stand by the fact the first year I would be upset as well but the second year not so much because she had a year to figure it out. The person who talked about hearing aids. The one person I know in performing arts wears the kind that is very difficult to detect. They certainly do not wear the old fashioned big tan kind that are almost as big as the ear wrapped around the back. |
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Post by Merge on Nov 8, 2014 23:44:56 GMT
So, would a singer with hearing aids receive negative comments if she did not remove them? I cannot see an inch without my glasses, so removing them in this situation would not be possible (and I can wear contacts either) Let's be realistic - someone with a hearing deficit strong enough to need hearing aids is unlikely to be singing at the level needed to participate in competitions. As a musician, your ears are the most important tool you have (because we're not all Beethoven). I don't make the standards. They are what they are and the performing arts, like many other activities, never claimed to be "equal opportunity." Have you ever seen someone in a wheelchair handling a dog at Westminster? Ever seen someone with thick glasses participating as an Olympic gymnast? A ballerina with a back brace? Of course, anyone can and should feel free to break the mold and do something new. Just don't cry unfair if someone comments unfavorably. |
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Post by AussieMeg on Nov 8, 2014 23:59:36 GMT
I really appreciate Merge's comments because even though I disagree and think it's stupid (and perhaps borders on discriminatory...but that may be a bit extreme, I realize) she did explain in a way that I could understand...even if I didn't agree with it or like it.
Is really good at that, isn't she? Smart lady, that one. |
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Post by stampinbetsy on Nov 9, 2014 0:03:44 GMT
Full time college teaching positions are ridiculously difficult to come by, particularly without substantial professional performance experience. Getting a master's degree made me a better singer and overall musician, but did nothing to increase my job prospects. My bachelor's is in music Ed. and that's been my bread and butter. I could probably cobble together a full time teaching load with adjunct positions at various colleges all over town, but it would be a hard road and I'd have no health benefits. Just some info from one who's BTDT. So, so true. My DD is a music major, and her percussion teacher seems to have teaching positions at 2 different colleges in addition to playing with 3 or 4 symphonies in the region. Of course, she goes to a tiny liberal arts college that doesn't have a ton of percussionists (I think she's one of 2 kids in percussion ensemble who is actually a percussionist). I think its dumb that the NATS people complain about glasses (I'd run into the wall if I ran around without mine if I didn't wear contacts), but I can also see the point about singing being acting. |
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Post by Merge on Nov 9, 2014 0:47:05 GMT
I really appreciate Merge's comments because even though I disagree and think it's stupid (and perhaps borders on discriminatory...but that may be a bit extreme, I realize) she did explain in a way that I could understand...even if I didn't agree with it or like it.
Is really good at that, isn't she? Smart lady, that one.   |
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